smacl wrote: » Rather unusual that as someone who claims to be a life-long atheist you talk about 'his plan'. Something other than the loaves smells a bit fishy here
Timberrrrrrrr wrote: » Sure the same poster claims to be a "republican" yet has already stated that if the people of Ireland vote to repeal the 8th then the will of the people should be ignored and the 8th kept.
smacl wrote: » That might well be the case, but I'd suggest that most Christians would make the exception where taking someone else's life is necessary to save their own life or that of a loved one under attack for example. Many more would not be pacifists, and be ok with soldiery and necessary application of lethal force by law enforcement officers where deemed necessary (e.g. shooting a crazed gunman in a school or shopping mall). Put another way, many Christians don't treat the bible as absolute literal truth, and others seem in favour of just war as can be seen in this thread. Kudos if you're personal philosophy as a Christian is to not kill under any circumstance, but I'd say you're as likely to be the exception as the rule there. Christianity is not a notably peaceful religion.
Graces7 wrote: » ?? show me where I said that please? The commandment remains. DO NOT KILL. Our responsibility ends with obeying that commandment
david75 wrote: » So Following your thinking, the foetus will not live but will return to remain at gods right hand side for all eternity basking in his love and glory. Maybe that was his plan all along. Who are we to question that.
end of the road wrote: » i don't think his plan was for that to happen via mother's being able to kill their unborn children just because they were inconvenient. after all he wouldn't have issued the "one shall not kill" commandment.
end of the road wrote: » religion has nothing to do with it for me as i'm not religious and nor was i brought up religious.
Graces7 wrote: » Pondering much on this and issues from the other thread in the long silent nights here If you do not believe in God, in Jesus, then a different attitude than we who know and love the Lord Jesus.. and I am not referring to what one poster listed as dogma or what the clergy teach, but a soul-deep knowledge and love, a faith that we strive to live in our love of Jesus.... And maybe we need to think more laterally and widely. SO much condemnation flying around re lack of compassion for women Bu this is not so. After an abortion, the woman is alive. The baby is not. Will never be alive, while the woman can go forward/. As she can by bearing the child, by sharing her life with that innocent and helpless baby . And we do have moral standards to go by. "Thou shalt not kill" is one of them, and the early church, in the Didache, forbids "procuring an abortion." Yes deep compassion for the woman Of course This new Order combines this.http://www.sistersoflife.org/about-the-sisters-of-lifehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Life
Turtwig wrote: » Mod: ... This is serious moral and ethical issue the minimum that can be of expected of us is to put our opinions and arguments forward. Not the words verbatim of others. [instead please use] our own opinions or [our] interpretations of others opinions [by expressing them] in our own words. ... Thanks
EirWatchr wrote: » When the citizen comes out of the womb, by natural or artificial means, after 24 weeks gestation, alive or dead.
Delirium wrote: » When is a citizens PPS number usually assigned?
MommySquish wrote: » There is no caveat to the sixth commandment. In self defence or not. It is pretty finite.
J C wrote: » I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion. The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'. It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available. This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence. Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her. This is the current law in Ireland. Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.
Graces7 wrote: » Not what that means and we do not all believe in war of any kind.
Not a valid comparison with killing unborn babies.
end of the road wrote: » currently i can't find anything that provides clarity either way on the issue. and i have looked.
Graces7 wrote: » Please link to this as all I can find is that the only right of the unborn is the right to life? As inhttp://www.newstalk.com/Supreme-Court-set-to-rule-on-the-rights-of-the-unborn As opposed to citizenship? Thank you
david75 wrote: » And perhaps you missed it but last week the Supreme Court ruled that the unborn foetus rights do not supercede that of the mothers. Therefore it’s the mothers choice and this was settled before we have the referendum.
end of the road wrote: » no, the judge said the unborn have no rights outside the 8th. that's a little different to what you are stating dav. nope, i'm no longer claiming it's a citizen because i can't find clarity either way on it. i assumed understandibly that if they were of irish parentage they would still count as a citizen, but no actual clarity is availible via searches. i am claiming however that an unborn baby is living, especially before birth. do you deny that a pre-birth baby is living? you can quote whatever you want it won't make any difference to me. if you make an argument you have to except you will be challenged on it, it's a discussion forum. the reason the pro-choice argument's don't really stack up, is because they can be used to abolish every single law in the book if there was support for it. that could mean laws you agree with being abolished.
SusieBlue wrote: » It’s not a living citizen. You have no proof to back up your claim. Shouting it over and over will not make it so. Unless you can find me something that says an unborn baby is a living citizen (those exact words) you are telling lies. I recall about 3/4 times off the top of my head where I have told you I don’t wish to engage with you, im on my phone at the moment but will have no problem quoting these later for your attention. My arguments do stack up, and regardless, I am under no obligation to justify myself or them to you. I will not change my opinion whatsoever. And as I said, I didn’t make any arguments. I commended another poster on their opinion and you jumped on me with nonsense about drink driving.
end of the road wrote: » so a baby before birth isn't living? dispite having a heartbeat and kicking around? nope, never happened. i just wanted to correct some of what you stated and show how your argument didn't stack up. the reason you don't want to engage with me is because i show up your arguments. fair enough, but if you are going to argue you have to except you will be challenged. nope, this never happened. i simply counteracted your argument.
Graces7 wrote: » This was raised in a recent court case, re a deportation order. All children including the unborn are protected under the constitution in exact words. The 8th amendment was added because of denial Th e judge confirmed that the unborn hava a right to life
Delirium wrote: » Please provide evidence that the unborn is regarded as a citizen under Irish law.
smacl wrote: » Until you look at the concept of just war and look at the huge numbers the Christians slaughtered in defence of their faith over the years, and the fact that Christians still become soldiers and law enforcement agents that will be involved in killing as a matter of course. Outside of war, Christians have been also killing as a form of punishment for centuries and still continue to do so in some jurisdictions. While I've no figures, I wouldn't imagine those involved in lethal crime are exclusively non-Christian either, and would suggest that Christians are no more or less prone to killing people than anyone else.Onward, Christian Soldiers.....
SusieBlue wrote: » So you made it up then. No proof. Colour me surprised.
DubInMeath wrote: » Actually the law as it stands in relation to abortion causes harm to society, hence the campaign for its repeal.
SusieBlue wrote: » Oh for goodness sake. Do you even read back on your posts before posting them? How can something be both unborn and a living citizen? Please provide evidence for same.
SusieBlue wrote: » I’d also like to point out that I previously told you I don’t wish to engage with you any more. I was simply commending someone else on their position and you took it as an opportunity to start soapboxing about the unborn.
SusieBlue wrote: » I think we’ve long established we’re never going to see eye to eye on this so there was no reason for you to derail the thread by jumping on what I said to someone else with more of your nonsensical drivel.
