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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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david75

RobertKK wrote: »

You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

How warped are you?? Seriously. Indicative of the entire pro life position though sadly.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

RobertKK wrote: »

You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

They should be dead if their mother wanted. Because their mother matters and is important enough to put herself and her body first. If she wants to keep her pregnancy she should and equally if she doesn’t want to grow her rapists spawn she shouldn’t have to. To suggest otherwise tells me a lot about the contempt you show for females

retro:electro

RobertKK wrote: »

You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

Nobody is saying all the babies born to rape should have been aborted. But surely the mother should at least have the option open to her? If she wants to keep it, fine. If she doesn’t, fine too. It’s called personal choice, that’s what your side want to restrict.

Call me Al

ForestFire wrote: »

In your hast to laugh at me I have already commented on this.

I also said Tuam has special meaning to me but you conveniently ignore this.

Do you hold only certain posters on here responsible for Tuam? While others can absolve themselves, when in fact nobody here is ikely anyway responsible and it's no relevant to this vote.

I haven't once mentioned Tuam ..
So again, can you answer my question? A simple yes or no if you prefer.

Timberrrrrrrr

RobertKK wrote: »

You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

Roughly translated: rape is good in some cases :rolleyes:

January

RobertKK wrote: »

You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

FFS. Literally NOBODY is saying that's what should happen.We are saying if a woman is raped, she should have a CHOICE in whether she wants to carry her rapists child to term or not.

Graces7

Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »

With all due respect Grace you have no idea what you’d do if you were raped and found yourself with child. You cannot comprehend to feel that level of violation unless you’ve been through it. When the thoughts of merely touching your body repulses you never mind having the seed of whoever raped you growing inside you and taking life from you. You cannot say what you would do because thankfully that has never happened to you but it has happened to a lot of women and they deserve to do what’s right for them

You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")

erica74

RobertKK wrote: »

My wording was not the best but there has been cases in the past where the child was the proof that the woman was raped. The unborn is an innocent life in the rape just like the woman who was raped is.
I am not going to pretend i can imagine the depth of the horror you went through, but that sounds horrific and I am sorry to read that, hope you are ok.

This is a general comment and not aimed at you, I don’t think it is nice for people either who were born from the result of rape to see people say they shouldn’t have been allowed to live. The pro choice side seem to always argue that rape is like a clear cut reason for abortion. The message it sends out to the children who are the result of a rape is damaging.

Who said all children born of rape shouldn't have been allowed to live? We are saying women who are raped should be able to CHOOSE whether to continue with the pregnancy or not.
Imagine what it would be like to be raped, end up pregnant and, if you want an abortion, have to travel to another country to abort your rapist's baby? Imagine having to hang around an airport, which are stressful enough anyway, with your rapist's baby growing inside you, while people around you are excited about their holidays or crying saying goodbye to family and you're sitting there with your rapist's baby growing inside you.

Graces7

Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »

They should be dead if their mother wanted.

Because their mother matters and is important enough to put herself and her body first. If she wants to keep her pregnancy she should and equally if she doesn’t want to grow her rapists spawn she shouldn’t have to. To suggest otherwise tells me a lot about the contempt you show for females

Words there are none.

Not the child's fault.. nor the mother's

RobertKK

david75 wrote: »

How warped are you?? Seriously. Indicative of the entire pro life position though sadly.

What is wrong with you? You think it is ok to go around and dismiss people who were born as a result of rape?
Rape is used as a hard case in abortion debates, the people who use it come from it that it is a given that if a woman is pregnant from rape she will want an abortion.
It tells children of rape that their lives are somehow inferior, then you talked about warped...

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Graces7 wrote: »

You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")

You do not have a child, so you have not had to carry a rapists baby I’m assuming. And even if you have, and I wholeheartedly hope you’ve never had to be faced with that, your experience or feelings is irrelevant to the many other women who find themselves in this position because everyone has a different outlook emotions feelings strength etc

volchitsa

Graces7 wrote: »

You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")

The HSE applied for a court order to forcibly restrain a rape victim, Miss Y, to make her continue a pregnancy.

Do you think that should be an option for a child rape victim who has not yet come to terms with being "with child" herself?

January

erica74 wrote: »

Who said all children born of rape shouldn't have been allowed to live? We are saying women who are raped should be able to CHOOSE whether to continue with the pregnancy or not.
Imagine what it would be like to be raped, end up pregnant and, if you want an abortion, have to travel to another country to abort your rapist's baby? Imagine having to hang around an airport, which are stressful enough anyway, with your rapist's baby growing inside you, while people around you are excited about their holidays or crying saying goodbye to family and you're sitting there with your rapist's baby growing inside you.

Imagine on top of everything else having to find at least €1000 euro so you could travel. Imagine not being able to afford to travel on top of everything else you're now being forced to remain pregnant for this person, this person who raped you and now will have to be in your life forevermore (because lets face it, being a parent doesn't stop when they turn 18) and yes, rapists have been granted access to their children.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

RobertKK wrote: »

What is wrong with you? You think it is ok to go around and dismiss people who were born as a result of rape?
Rape is used as a hard case in abortion debates, the people who use it come from it that it is a given that if a woman is pregnant from rape she will want an abortion.
It tells children of rape that their lives are somehow inferior, then you talked about warped...

No more warped than you lot telling women their lives are inferior and they’re basically only a walking uterus

erica74

I am just at a total loss here.
If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.
If you want an abortion, have one.
That's how simple this should be.
No woman forced to remain pregnant, no woman forced to have an abortion. Simple.
Every woman should have access to abortion in their home country so that there is continuity of care and every woman has the support they need throughout the process.

January

RobertKK wrote: »

What is wrong with you? You think it is ok to go around and dismiss people who were born as a result of rape?
Rape is used as a hard case in abortion debates, the people who use it come from it that it is a given that if a woman is pregnant from rape she will want an abortion.
It tells children of rape that their lives are somehow inferior, then you talked about warped...

I think he has me on ignore lol.

Your entire position is warped, you think that pro-choice people want every baby that is conceived in rape aborted, you think that we'd go around telling people who have been conceived in rape that their lives are somehow inferior because their mother choose to have them, you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.

david75

RobertKK wrote: »

What is wrong with you? You think it is ok to go around and dismiss people who were born as a result of rape?
Rape is used as a hard case in abortion debates, the people who use it come from it that it is a given that if a woman is pregnant from rape she will want an abortion.
It tells children of rape that their lives are somehow inferior, then you talked about warped...

You’re literally dismissing women and their right to bodily autonomy. You are literally telling them a foetus either planted by rape or otherwise, is more important than the woman forced to carry it.
And you don’t see how repugnant that is.
That is beyond warped.

RobertKK

erica74 wrote: »

Who said all children born of rape shouldn't have been allowed to live? We are saying women who are raped should be able to CHOOSE whether to continue with the pregnancy or not.
Imagine what it would be like to be raped, end up pregnant and, if you want an abortion, have to travel to another country to abort your rapist's baby? Imagine having to hang around an airport, which are stressful enough anyway, with your rapist's baby growing inside you, while people around you are excited about their holidays or crying saying goodbye to family and you're sitting there with your rapist's baby growing inside you.

Rape is used as a hard case when in fact a huge majority of abortions have nothing to do with rape.
The proposed legislation is for extreme no reason abortions up to 12 weeks and then longer for other reasons.
It goes far beyond hard cases and asks people to trust politicians...who say they will not respect the vote if retain the 8th win and will rerun the referendum.
It is in the Irish times today that the proposed abortion legislation is causing problems for the repeal campaigners as it goes way beyond the hard cases.

Graces7

January wrote: »

Imagine on top of everything else having to find at least €1000 euro so you could travel. Imagine not being able to afford to travel on top of everything else you're now being forced to remain pregnant for this person, this person who raped you and now will have to be in your life forevermore (because lets face it, being a parent doesn't stop when they turn 18) and yes, rapists have been granted access to their children.

A quiet question please. Do you think aborting a child or rape will remove the suffering from the rape? I just googled and many deeply regretted aborting in these circumstances. It added to the suffering from the rape.

ForestFire

Call me Al wrote: »

I haven't once mentioned Tuam ..
So again, can you answer my question? A simple yes or no if you prefer.

I haven't once metioned india china...

So again, can you answer my question? A simple yes or no if you prefer.

(And as I said I already answered yours if you care to look)

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")

What?

How about addressing the points made? Old age is no excuse for intolerance, lack of compassion, pontificating, or ignoring the points made that aren't what you want to hear. Does a woman get no say in how her entire future will be?

"With Child"???? Where did that come from?

Graces7

david75 wrote: »

You’re literally dismissing women and their right to bodily autonomy. You are literally telling them a foetus either planted by rape or otherwise, is more important than the woman forced to carry it.
And you don’t see how repugnant that is.
That is beyond warped.

I see your point but we are coming at it from a different direction. You say foetus; we say baby. /

RobertKK

david75 wrote: »

You’re literally dismissing women and their right to bodily autonomy. You are literally telling them a foetus either planted by rape or otherwise, is more important than the woman forced to carry it.
And you don’t see how repugnant that is.
That is beyond warped.

Warped to see an innocent life as not being guilty for the crime of another?
It is the disregard for life that makes people do bad things to the lives of others. People failing to see the actions one does to another and the effects it has. There is a lack of caring in this world and killing innocent life and turning a woman into a being where a life is ended is hardly a positive thing. Where is the bodily autonomy of the unborn that is killed in the womb and which has to be aborted because he or she is now dead?

Graces7

RobertKK wrote: »

Warped to see an innocent life as not being guilty for the crime of another?
It is the disregard for life that makes people do bad things to the lives of others. People failing to see the actions one does to another and the effects it has. There is a lack of caring in this world and killing innocent life and turning a woman into a being where a life is ended is hardly a positive thing. Where is the bodily autonomy of the unborn that is killed in the womb and which has to be aborted because he or she is now dead?

Amen to this Robert. Amen

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

A quiet question please. Do you think aborting a child or rape will remove the suffering from the rape? I just googled and many deeply regretted aborting in these circumstances. It added to the suffering from the rape.

It will not remove the trauma of rape but you think going through a full pregnancy and spending your life rearing the child of that rapist will not make it worse?

Google all you want. Some deeply regret perhaps but you won't read the sites of those who have no regrets. You won't see any comments from the vast majority of women who have had to travel for an abortion because they're not posting online.

That was no genuine question, just a route to posting more propaganda.

January

Graces7 wrote: »

A quiet question please. Do you think aborting a child or rape will remove the suffering from the rape? I just googled and many deeply regretted aborting in these circumstances. It added to the suffering from the rape.

For some women yes it will remove the suffering from the rape, not totally, but yes, it will remove suffering for some.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Graces7 wrote: »

I see your point but we are coming at it from a different direction. You say foetus; we say baby. /

You say baby in your situation and don’t worry what’s going on with another persons body. I am personally anti abortion for me myself in my situation however under consultants medical advice I cannot/should not get pregnant. I have profound hypothyroidism which is in myxodema stage and my body is unable to absorb the medication. They will eventually fix it I hope but if I was to get pregnant tomorrow I wouldn’t have a choice in what I’d have to do, because my body is physically incapable of growing a healthy or even semi healthy baby. If I found myself pregnant with this condition I would abort and id be devastated doing it but it is what it is.

pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

My wording was not the best but there has been cases in the past where the child was the proof that the woman was raped. The unborn is an innocent life in the rape just like the woman who was raped is.
I am not going to pretend i can imagine the depth of the horror you went through, but that sounds horrific and I am sorry to read that, hope you are ok.

This is a general comment and not aimed at you, I don’t think it is nice for people either who were born from the result of rape to see people say they shouldn’t have been allowed to live. The pro choice side seem to always argue that rape is like a clear cut reason for abortion. The message it sends out to the children who are the result of a rape is damaging.

I think everyone who supports choice, supports choice in that scenario. Nobody expects a woman to follow a certain route. I don't think anyone should be forced into a pregnancy against their will. I also think that it's incredibly warped to treat a child as a potential piece of evidence. You also will not prove rape unless the conception was prior to legal age of consent, you would need far more evidence to prove anything otherwise.

Regardless of it not being directed at Erica, women who have faced that scenario are going to be particularly affected by what you just posted. You've given no consideration towards how a 9 month pregnancy affects a woman mentally and physically, it does that regardless of a rape btw. The fact that this needs to be explained to you is worrying.

Call me Al

ForestFire wrote: »

I haven't once metioned india china...

So again, can you answer my question? A simple yes or no if you prefer.

(And as I said I already answered yours if you care to look)

No no you really didn't answer my question. Not even that yes or no.
Unless you're sticking to your point that you don't have to answer what you don't want to. But please be honest about your double standards.

"Do you hold only certain posters on here responsible for Tuam? While others can absolve themselves, when in fact nobody here is ikely anyway responsible and it's no relevant to this vote."

'With regard to Tuam I hold the church, now active within the pro-life campaign, responsible for what went on there. And I feel that their moral authority to advise and guide anyone on how to vote on matters of family planning and women's reproduction is non-existent as a result of this and so many many other crimes against their parishoners, my fellow-citizens.

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

You have no idea what I have endured in this very area and situation in a long life and come to peace about it, to be in the position on this in my old age. ( love that expression "with child")

You are the very definition of "wisdom does not necessarily come with age".

You really did deflect my question though.

Do you or do you not believe that a woman who has already been forced to have intercourse should be forced to have that unwanted pregnancy due to rape? It's a simple yes or no answer.

Do you not think being forced to have intercourse against her consent is more than enough without having to carry that unplanned pregnancy full term because you're forcing her to keep the baby in line with your completely skewed views?