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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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pilly

volchitsa wrote:

What strikes me about that post is that it uses traditions of baby girls being abandoned alive in one country as an argument against legal abortion in another country with no history of abandoning girls at all.

Except those abandoned in mother and baby homes. Perhaps we should go back to the good old days.

volchitsa

pilly wrote: »

You don't have any colleagues so I'm going to presume the rest of that paragraph is a lie too.

I think by "colleagues" that poster may mean other members of their religious order.

What strikes me about that post is that it uses traditions of baby girls being abandoned alive in one country as an argument against legal abortion in another country with no history of abandoning girls at all.

erica74

Graces7 wrote: »

What an insult to families who love and cherish their children even or especially when they are severely disabled. Because they are their children.

Who grudge no time or energy or cost.

Who would not have killed the babies unborn . who chose to love and cherish.

How is that an insult? Parenting a child with special needs is hard, to deny that is pure stupidity.
There are many many women who, if the option was available to them here in Ireland, may have chosen to end their pregnancy if the resulting baby was going to be born with special needs. However, there are also many many women who would still have chosen to continue with their pregnancy regardless of the difficulties and hardship to come. Both sets of women should have access to all of their options in their home country so that, no matter what they choose, they can be fully supported throughout.

Some people are strong and stable enough and have the support system necessary to cope with a child with special needs and some people just do not have the ability to cope with a child with special needs and that is not an insult to them, it doesn't mean they are bad people. When a child with special needs is young, there is support from the government and the HSE but many families struggle to access what they need without a fight. When a child with special needs becomes an adult with special needs there is much less support available and then, parents are facing the worry of who will look after their child if something happens to them, if they become ill themselves, amongst many many other worries.

I could go on and on about this particular part of the debate, however, this debate and the Referendum is about a woman's right to choose what to do when she finds herself pregnant and is not simply just about FFA and children with special needs.

pilly

Ismisejack wrote:

Some of us had cows to milk, not everyone gets days off you know!

Why am I not surprised that you're a farmer?

pilly

Graces7 wrote:

I have colleagues working in India and Nepal and gathering in baby girls literally thrown on rubbish heaps because they are girls The men will not allow birth control or abortion lest they prevent a previous boy

You don't have any colleagues so I'm going to presume the rest of that paragraph is a lie too.

pilly

Graces7 wrote:

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

What a disgusting thing to say.

amdublin

Graces7 wrote: »

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Maybe you need to stop being so judgemental and take your nose out of other people's business

Graces7

RobertKK wrote: »

In time I think what people view as moderate now will be viewed as being extreme. There was a time when slavery was not seen as extreme, there is still slavery in the world in 2018 where people are bought and sold. Because it happens it doesn't mean it should be legal.
It is pro-choice views that causes the stress you talk about, as the unborn life is seen as something that can be traded away with an abortion.
I don't believe in the trading of life, where one life is seen as inferior, it is a view that ends up permeating society. It has happened in countries where abortion was legalised, abortion rates go up.
The high levels of abortion has also contributed in the western world for the need for higher immigration given not enough people are being born, and this has led to tensions and the rise of the far right.
Back in 2012 the figure was 30% of pregnancies in Europe were aborted or about 2.2 million abortions, a few years later we see Merkel and some others seeing the refugee crisis as a means to fix a demographic problem of not enough young
people to fill jobs and pay the taxes. We saw the consequences of this policy and the problem stems from a disregard for life in the womb, which leads to not enough people being born as they are seen as disposable, the replacement of these missing people with immigration from areas of the world which do not share the same culture or heritage. Resentment and now the main opposition party in Germany is a far right party.
Abortion has led to discrimination against girls in some countries, where we see being an unborn female is the reason to be aborted. Today we see the unbalanced populations in some countries like China and India where tens of million of women are missing in society because females are viewed as inferior, with men who will never have a chance to find a woman to share love, because the women were never given the chance of life as they were seen as disposable in the womb.
But this is what we get when people talk about choice, viewing the lives of others as disposable, but not thinking about the consequences down the line.
Abortion brings about a very negative butterfly effect.

Wise words and a welcome contrast to some posts here.

I have colleagues working in India and Nepal and gathering in baby girls literally thrown on rubbish heaps because they are girls The men will not allow birth control or abortion lest they prevent a previous boy

Recently they have been using late term scans and aborting and dumping living viable babies.

Listening to discussions in Ireland, hearing things like. "Abortion is part of birth control" and "Abortion is an integral part of a woman's reproductive health care"

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

amdublin

Ismisejack wrote: »

It will . If in the event the referendum does pass the pro- abortion side won’t just rest on their laurels, they will campaign for looser abortion laws again and a referendum won’t be needed to do so, just weak politicians

Do you really believe that? So you don't trust women to choose what's best for them. And you also don't trust people who want the choice or availability of abortion if needed/requested up to 12 weeks.

For me, You speak like old old Ireland. I like to think we are different now. I believe you are in the minority in our country thank Christ

Ismisejack

bubblypop wrote: »

Hey, do the anti choice brigade get up really really early or go to bed really really late??

Some of us had cows to milk, not everyone gets days off you know!

[Deleted User]

Hey, do the anti choice brigade get up really really early or go to bed really really late??

pilly

Ismisejack wrote:

Trying to normalise murder and claim pro-lifeors are extremists. Iâ€™m am insulting all I stand for engaging with an invacile like you

If you're going to throw around insults like that you really need to learn to spell.

Ismisejack

robarmstrong wrote: »

Nah, it really won't.

It will . If in the event the referendum does pass the pro- abortion side won’t just rest on their laurels, they will campaign for looser abortion laws again and a referendum won’t be needed to do so, just weak politicians

RobertKK

david75 wrote: »

Anyone get their cheque from Soros this week?

Mine never came

Amnesty International Ireland did, now in the high court over it.

RobertKK

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

A vote to retain the 8th is a vote to essentially 'look the other way' while thousands of Irish women continue to have abortions in the UK - often later than would be the case if it was available in Ireland. I think it's important not to view the referendum as a 'what are your views on abortion?' survey. You can remain personally opposed to it in all circumstances, while also taking the more pragmatic view that it should not be criminalised.

You ask people to not view the referendum for what it is about, we are being asked for our own views on abortions and what we believe about the 8th amendment, and where abortion law goes to after it, if the repeal side wins.
I am not going to vote for something that I view as being detrimental to society.

RobertKK

pitifulgod wrote: »

It's pretty moderate by international standards so not extreme. The reality is Robert, Irish citizens have abortions by the thousands. The state puts undue stress on all those women. You wish to maintain it.

In time I think what people view as moderate now will be viewed as being extreme. There was a time when slavery was not seen as extreme, there is still slavery in the world in 2018 where people are bought and sold. Because it happens it doesn't mean it should be legal.
It is pro-choice views that causes the stress you talk about, as the unborn life is seen as something that can be traded away with an abortion.
I don't believe in the trading of life, where one life is seen as inferior, it is a view that ends up permeating society. It has happened in countries where abortion was legalised, abortion rates go up.
The high levels of abortion has also contributed in the western world for the need for higher immigration given not enough people are being born, and this has led to tensions and the rise of the far right.
Back in 2012 the figure was 30% of pregnancies in Europe were aborted or about 2.2 million abortions, a few years later we see Merkel and some others seeing the refugee crisis as a means to fix a demographic problem of not enough young people to fill jobs and pay the taxes. We saw the consequences of this policy and the problem stems from a disregard for life in the womb, which leads to not enough people being born as they are seen as disposable, the replacement of these missing people with immigration from areas of the world which do not share the same culture or heritage. Resentment and now the main opposition party in Germany is a far right party.
Abortion has led to discrimination against girls in some countries, where we see being an unborn female is the reason to be aborted. Today we see the unbalanced populations in some countries like China and India where tens of million of women are missing in society because females are viewed as inferior, with men who will never have a chance to find a woman to share love, because the women were never given the chance of life as they were seen as disposable in the womb.
But this is what we get when people talk about choice, viewing the lives of others as disposable, but not thinking about the consequences down the line.
Abortion brings about a very negative butterfly effect.

Graces7

Neyite wrote: »

This morning I got thinking about all this debate. I thought about the few people I know who had diagnosed FFA pregnancies and who choose to carry to term.

One couple has a child now with significant & severe special needs. Another got a few precious days with their baby. Others were born sleeping. In all of those cases, the couples involved got amazing care from hospital staff, or from organisations such as Feilecain. Other professionals in their fields have donated their time or their skills to try to give a couple reeling during incredibly painful time some lasting memories. There were photographers giving them precious photos, seamstresses and knitters making delicate beautiful gowns for their babies to give you just a couple of examples of what folk do for newly bereaved parents.

Down the line, I've seen the difficulty with the actual reality of having a disabled child who survived from a FFA diagnosis. The endless appointments, therapies and hospital stays far away from home. Waiting on multiple waiting lists. Home help. Respite care. Home nursing. Wheelchair ramps. Adaptable cars. Hoists, adult nappies, adaptation of homes and furniture to accommodate a disabled growing child. There are various organisations, charities and HSE outpatient supports that help parents with some of this but it's still a daily struggle.

But I wondered where LoveBoth were in all of that? In the beginning to support people going through that pregnancy? Afterwards when the baby was born?

Not once did I ever hear, out of all of the organisations that supported my friends, that the service or assistance the parents of a special needs baby was provided by LoveBoth. Not so much as a baby hat. I wondered what they actually do for the babies they love so much. Maybe they provide bereavement counselling I thought. Or helped with funeral costs? Or maybe they offer a NICU nurse support so they could briefly bring their baby home for a few days? I was sure that they offer some sort of help...because they love both, right?

So I googled to check. And they don't appear to provide a thing. Not a single link to a support or a service for a crisis pregnancy, rape, FFA, or post-natal supports.

Absolutely nothing. Love Both my arse.

What an insult to families who love and cherish their children even or especially when they are severely disabled. Because they are their children.

Who grudge no time or energy or cost.

Who would not have killed the babies unborn . who chose to love and cherish.

Yer Da sells Avon

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't support repeal the 8th and the extremist abortion regime the government wants to introduce.

A vote to retain the 8th is a vote to essentially 'look the other way' while thousands of Irish women continue to have abortions in the UK - often later than would be the case if it was available in Ireland. I think it's important not to view the referendum as a 'what are your views on abortion?' survey. You can remain personally opposed to it in all circumstances, while also taking the more pragmatic view that it should not be criminalised.

Bannasidhe

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Yeah, who wants to engage with invaciles?

Only after I have had covfefe.

Zerbini Blewitt

Ismisejack wrote: »

Trying to normalise murder and claim pro-lifeors are extremists.

Your wordplay 'argument' doesn't work on a platform like this. It only works where you can be seen shouting loudly. That's where your approach used to work in the mists of time.

On a platform like this one has to be coherent - otherwise one's arguments looks like a sad joke.

But besides all that. Of course pro-lifers are extremists.

Forcing women to give birth against their will is extremist insanity.

Did you not know this

(Btw I don't supose you read the CA or Oireachtas C reports by any chance)

robarmstrong

Ismisejack wrote: »

The proposed abortion amendment is totally unacceptable in my view and will ultimately lead to abortion on demand

Nah, it really won't.

Loafing Oaf

Ismisejack wrote: »

Trying to normalise murder and claim pro-lifeors are extremists. I’m am insulting all I stand for engaging with an invacile like you

Yeah, who wants to engage with invaciles?

david75

So tonight the late late has a feature with Down syndrome people.

Strange timing for sure.

SusieBlue

Ismisejack wrote: »

Trying to normalise murder and claim pro-lifeors are extremists. I’m am insulting all I stand for engaging with an invacile like you

You can stand for whatever you want.
It doesn’t meant anyone has to agree with you and it doesn’t mean I have to live my life restricted by your morals and opinions.

It isn’t murder, no matter how many times you scream and stamp your foot, it won’t make it so.

swampgas

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't support repeal the 8th and the extremist abortion regime the government wants to introduce.

If you think the proposed legislation is extreme you really need to get out more. It's anything but extreme. The real extremists are the ones saying no to any abortion at all - that would include you.

Ismisejack wrote: »

The proposed abortion amendment is totally unacceptable in my view and will ultimately lead to abortion on demand

In your view yes, but it's a minority view thankfully.

Besides, "abortion on demand" - which should really be called "abortion on request" - simply means that it's the pregnant woman or girl gets to decide what happens to her pregnancy, not some interfering busybody. What you prefer, by keeping the 8th, is no abortion at all unless a woman is at death's door, which as you well know means some women will die.

Ismisejack

Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »

That’s fine.

I thought you would have zero interest & zero arguments to make about women’s bodily autonomy in any case!!

At least we’re clear where you stand.

Just to correct one minor misunderstanding you have…

The only extremists in this issue are

• pro-forced birthers (like Ireland 1861-2018**, Nazi Germany, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan under the Taliban etc) and

• forced abortionists (who don’t exist)

Pro-choice is the sane centre ground (which is the civilised norm in all advanced, civilised countries).

The body autonomy aspect of this debate will continue to take place anyway.

(** all those who vote pro-life in our endless referenda (yes, that means your elderly catholic mammy & daddy and ), IONA, YD, Right wing neo-Fascist parties etc.)

Trying to normalise murder and claim pro-lifeors are extremists. I’m am insulting all I stand for engaging with an invacile like you

pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't support repeal the 8th and the extremist abortion regime the government wants to introduce.

It's pretty moderate by international standards so not extreme. The reality is Robert, Irish citizens have abortions by the thousands. The state puts undue stress on all those women. You wish to maintain it.

Zerbini Blewitt

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't support repeal the 8th and the extremist abortion regime the government wants to introduce.

That’s fine.

I thought you would have zero interest & zero arguments to make about women’s bodily autonomy in any case!!

At least we’re clear where you stand.

Just to correct one minor misunderstanding you have…

The only extremists in this issue are

• forced birthers (like Ireland 1861-2018**, Nazi Germany, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan under the Taliban etc) and

• forced abortionists (who don’t exist)

Pro-choice is the sane centre ground (which is the civilised norm in all advanced, civilised countries).

The body autonomy aspect of this debate will continue to take place anyway.

(** all those who vote pro-life in our endless referenda (yes, that means your elderly catholic mammy & daddy and ), IONA, YD, Right wing neo-Fascist parties etc.)

Ismisejack

Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »

They do indeed. Yet, all they seem to have they have to back this stance up is their banal assertion that it is murdering babies (aka murdering fertilized ovums )

75% - 90% by quantity of these abortion threads deal with the embryo/fetus, so I think a quid pro quo is in order.

Would you be up for spending 1-4 weeks on this thread on woman’s right to bodily autonomy. Let’s get beyond the “it (forced birthing) is the lesser of two evils non-debate PR slogan from the pro-life side”

I’m sure we will then all have a highly sophisticated ethical & moral debate worthy of a country with a high development index (in 2018) (without any issue-avoiding, non-argument tactics from any potential 1930’s style authoritarian forced-birthers).

What do you say?

(Note: Ignoring this post will have to be taken that the answer is:- No, You will not spend 4 minutes (let alone 4 weeks) discussing bodily autonomy rights).

The proposed abortion amendment is totally unacceptable in my view and will ultimately lead to abortion on demand

RobertKK

Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »

They do indeed. Yet, all they seem to have they have to back this stance up is their banal assertion that it is murdering babies (aka murdering fertilized ovums )

75% - 90% by quantity of these abortion threads deal with the embryo/fetus, so I think a quid pro quo is in order.

Would you be up for spending 1-4 weeks on this thread on woman’s right to bodily autonomy. Let’s get beyond the “it (forced birthing) is the lesser of two evils non-debate PR slogan from the pro-life side”

I’m sure we will then all have a highly sophisticated ethical & moral debate worthy of a country with a high development index (in 2018) (without any issue-avoiding, non-argument tactics from any potential 1930’s style authoritarian forced-birthers).

What do you say?

(Note: Ignoring this post will have to be taken that the answer is:- No, You will not spend 4 minutes (let alone 4 weeks) discussing bodily autonomy rights).

I don't support repeal the 8th and the extremist abortion regime the government wants to introduce.