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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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[Deleted User]

Hey, do the anti choice brigade get up really really early or go to bed really really late??

Ismisejack

bubblypop wrote: »

Hey, do the anti choice brigade get up really really early or go to bed really really late??

Some of us had cows to milk, not everyone gets days off you know!

amdublin

Ismisejack wrote: »

It will . If in the event the referendum does pass the pro- abortion side won’t just rest on their laurels, they will campaign for looser abortion laws again and a referendum won’t be needed to do so, just weak politicians

Do you really believe that? So you don't trust women to choose what's best for them. And you also don't trust people who want the choice or availability of abortion if needed/requested up to 12 weeks.

For me, You speak like old old Ireland. I like to think we are different now. I believe you are in the minority in our country thank Christ

Graces7

RobertKK wrote: »

In time I think what people view as moderate now will be viewed as being extreme. There was a time when slavery was not seen as extreme, there is still slavery in the world in 2018 where people are bought and sold. Because it happens it doesn't mean it should be legal.
It is pro-choice views that causes the stress you talk about, as the unborn life is seen as something that can be traded away with an abortion.
I don't believe in the trading of life, where one life is seen as inferior, it is a view that ends up permeating society. It has happened in countries where abortion was legalised, abortion rates go up.
The high levels of abortion has also contributed in the western world for the need for higher immigration given not enough people are being born, and this has led to tensions and the rise of the far right.
Back in 2012 the figure was 30% of pregnancies in Europe were aborted or about 2.2 million abortions, a few years later we see Merkel and some others seeing the refugee crisis as a means to fix a demographic problem of not enough young
people to fill jobs and pay the taxes. We saw the consequences of this policy and the problem stems from a disregard for life in the womb, which leads to not enough people being born as they are seen as disposable, the replacement of these missing people with immigration from areas of the world which do not share the same culture or heritage. Resentment and now the main opposition party in Germany is a far right party.
Abortion has led to discrimination against girls in some countries, where we see being an unborn female is the reason to be aborted. Today we see the unbalanced populations in some countries like China and India where tens of million of women are missing in society because females are viewed as inferior, with men who will never have a chance to find a woman to share love, because the women were never given the chance of life as they were seen as disposable in the womb.
But this is what we get when people talk about choice, viewing the lives of others as disposable, but not thinking about the consequences down the line.
Abortion brings about a very negative butterfly effect.

Wise words and a welcome contrast to some posts here.

I have colleagues working in India and Nepal and gathering in baby girls literally thrown on rubbish heaps because they are girls The men will not allow birth control or abortion lest they prevent a previous boy

Recently they have been using late term scans and aborting and dumping living viable babies.

Listening to discussions in Ireland, hearing things like. "Abortion is part of birth control" and "Abortion is an integral part of a woman's reproductive health care"

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

amdublin

Graces7 wrote: »

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Maybe you need to stop being so judgemental and take your nose out of other people's business

pilly

Graces7 wrote:

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

What a disgusting thing to say.

pilly

Graces7 wrote:

I have colleagues working in India and Nepal and gathering in baby girls literally thrown on rubbish heaps because they are girls The men will not allow birth control or abortion lest they prevent a previous boy

You don't have any colleagues so I'm going to presume the rest of that paragraph is a lie too.

pilly

Ismisejack wrote:

Some of us had cows to milk, not everyone gets days off you know!

Why am I not surprised that you're a farmer?

erica74

Graces7 wrote: »

What an insult to families who love and cherish their children even or especially when they are severely disabled. Because they are their children.

Who grudge no time or energy or cost.

Who would not have killed the babies unborn . who chose to love and cherish.

How is that an insult? Parenting a child with special needs is hard, to deny that is pure stupidity.
There are many many women who, if the option was available to them here in Ireland, may have chosen to end their pregnancy if the resulting baby was going to be born with special needs. However, there are also many many women who would still have chosen to continue with their pregnancy regardless of the difficulties and hardship to come. Both sets of women should have access to all of their options in their home country so that, no matter what they choose, they can be fully supported throughout.

Some people are strong and stable enough and have the support system necessary to cope with a child with special needs and some people just do not have the ability to cope with a child with special needs and that is not an insult to them, it doesn't mean they are bad people. When a child with special needs is young, there is support from the government and the HSE but many families struggle to access what they need without a fight. When a child with special needs becomes an adult with special needs there is much less support available and then, parents are facing the worry of who will look after their child if something happens to them, if they become ill themselves, amongst many many other worries.

I could go on and on about this particular part of the debate, however, this debate and the Referendum is about a woman's right to choose what to do when she finds herself pregnant and is not simply just about FFA and children with special needs.

volchitsa

pilly wrote: »

You don't have any colleagues so I'm going to presume the rest of that paragraph is a lie too.

I think by "colleagues" that poster may mean other members of their religious order.

What strikes me about that post is that it uses traditions of baby girls being abandoned alive in one country as an argument against legal abortion in another country with no history of abandoning girls at all.

pilly

volchitsa wrote:

What strikes me about that post is that it uses traditions of baby girls being abandoned alive in one country as an argument against legal abortion in another country with no history of abandoning girls at all.

Except those abandoned in mother and baby homes. Perhaps we should go back to the good old days.

December2012

Graces7 wrote: »

I have colleagues working in India and Nepal and gathering in baby girls literally thrown on rubbish heaps because they are girls The men will not allow birth control or abortion lest they prevent a previous boy

Yes I agree that it is awful that there is a double standard for males and females, with women not having control over their own reproductive system and being forced into situations they don't want by men or society.

Thats why I am pro choice.

Ave Sodalis

Graces7 wrote:

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Why do people keep using this? Part of the mentality around keeping the 8th also means that you can't actually get sterilised unless under certain circumstances. Forgetting about the many other reasons this argument is stupid, do you have any idea how difficult it is to get your tubes tied in this country? It's pretty much impossible unless you're over 40 with loads of children. People don't think women should be trusted with their own reproductive system, so even though tube tying is legal, you cannot get it done even if you wanted to, unless under special circumstances or you find a doctor that trusts women with their own choices which are very few and far between. So no, they can't think sterilisation. I'd love to get my tubes done to be even more sure I can't have children... but I can't.

Graces7

December2012 wrote: »

Yes I agree that it is awful that there is a double standard for males and females, with women not having control over their own reproductive system and being forced into situations they don't want by men or society.

Thats why I am pro choice.

I was speaking re female babies being aborted or killed.They had no choice. Period. They did not choose death

Graces7

erica74 wrote: »

How is that an insult? Parenting a child with special needs is hard, to deny that is pure stupidity.
There are many many women who, if the option was available to them here in Ireland, may have chosen to end their pregnancy if the resulting baby was going to be born with special needs. However, there are also many many women who would still have chosen to continue with their pregnancy regardless of the difficulties and hardship to come. Both sets of women should have access to all of their options in their home country so that, no matter what they choose, they can be fully supported throughout.

Some people are strong and stable enough and have the support system necessary to cope with a child with special needs and some people just do not have the ability to cope with a child with special needs and that is not an insult to them, it doesn't mean they are bad people. When a child with special needs is young, there is support from the government and the HSE but many families
struggle to access what they need without a fight. When a child with special needs becomes an adult with special needs there is much less support available and then, parents are facing the worry of who will look after their child if something happens to them, if they become ill themselves, amongst many many other worries.

I could go on and on about this particular part of the debate, however, this debate and the Referendum is about a woman's right to choose what to do when she finds herself pregnant and is not simply just about FFA and children with special needs.

Many things are "hard". Does not mean you choose death for someone rather than face "hard". Life is not easy for many of us but we face it.

kylith

Irish women have to have babies they can’t care for, and be denied a say in their maternity care because people in Asia don’t want girls? What?

Graces7

pilly wrote: »

You don't have any colleagues so I'm going to presume the rest of that paragraph is a lie too.

Every person who works with my extended family in India, Nepal, Canada etc is my colleague. Every person who supports that work as I do, by selling my knitting, is my colleague in the truest sense of the word. I may never meet them but we work together for the same purpose' to save innocent life. One of my colleagues describes abortion as the lowest form of murder.

Why do you feel you need to accuse like this?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/dumped-doorstep-thousands-baby-girls-10896056

These are the lucky ones by the way.

Graces7

kylith wrote: »

Irish women have to have babies they can’t care for, and be denied a say in their maternity care because people in Asia don’t want girls? What?

?????

January

Anyone want to see the latest desperate attempt by the 'Pro Life' crowd? Click at your own risk.

https://twitter.com/1Cunionsandphey/status/974780776859557904?s=19

Graces7

amdublin wrote: »

Maybe you need to stop being so judgemental and take your nose out of other people's business

Did you hear some of the Citizens assembly witnesses who were saying exactly that? That is where I heard this many times.

Life is precious and sacred and is everyone's concern. We were also told by an abortionist how he went about this killing.

Graces7

amdublin wrote: »

Maybe you need to stop being so judgemental and take your nose out of other people's business

I am deleting that comment; Ok? OK!

Graces7

pilly wrote: »

What a disgusting thing to say.

Deleting my comment.

Madscientist30

Graces7 wrote: »

erica74 wrote: »

How is that an insult? Parenting a child with special needs is hard, to deny that is pure stupidity.
There are many many women who, if the option was available to them here in Ireland, may have chosen to end their pregnancy if the resulting baby was going to be born with special needs. However, there are also many many women who would still have chosen to continue with their pregnancy regardless of the difficulties and hardship to come. Both sets of women should have access to all of their options in their home country so that, no matter what they choose, they can be fully supported throughout.

Some people are strong and stable enough and have the support system necessary to cope with a child with special needs and some people just do not have the ability to cope with a child with special needs and that is not an insult to them, it doesn't mean they are bad people. When a child with special needs is young, there is support from the government and the HSE but many families
struggle to access what they need without a fight. When a child with special needs becomes an adult with special needs there is much less support available and then, parents are facing the worry of who will look after their child if something happens to them, if they become ill themselves, amongst many many other worries.

I could go on and on about this particular part of the debate, however, this debate and the Referendum is about a woman's right to choose what to do when she finds herself pregnant and is not simply just about FFA and children with special needs.

Many things are "hard". Does not mean you choose death for someone rather than face "hard". Life is not easy for many of us but we face it.

What right do you think you have to pass judgement on how hard other peoples lives "should" be? Your own life yes of course but why do you get to dismiss the suffering of some people (those forced into pregnancy) but not others (children who are left on the scrapheap) or discount the fact that others dont suffer at all (the unborn fetus) but their mothers must suffer on their behalf? What special status do you have that you get to play god like that with the lives of other people, and judge how much they can and should suffer? Is it because the unborn is "innocent" but the mother isnt? The Bible is quite unclear and contradictory on when exactly humans become "people" or "alive" but seems quite clear on judging others. You are no more innocent than the people you are laying judgement on and therefore have no moral superiority over them and no right to ordain suffering for anybody. Do you think that women who choose abortion should have a right to decide what they think is an appropriate level of suffering or pain for you based on the sins and moral failures you have committed in your life? If not, why do you think you have that right over anybody else? What makes you special?

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

Listening to discussions in Ireland, hearing things like. "Abortion is part of birth control" and "Abortion is an integral part of a woman's reproductive health care"

So are you back to making things up again?

Nobody from the pro-choice side in their right mind would say abortion is part of birth control (because it isn't), abortion isn't an integral part of a woman's reproductive health care.

Having the right to one though is most definitely an integral part though.

I'm very happy to go through any and all of these points you try to make very, very slowly and show you how wrong you are.

Speaking of murder and killing babies and whatnot, what have you got to say about Tuam? Genuinely curious or will you ignore that bit again.

robarmstrong

Also Graces7, if you could answer the below questions I'd greatly appreciate it.

Do you fully believe that a woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy to full term against her wishes (she may be in no position to have a baby) just to satisfy your own personal beliefs and morals?

If YOU were in that same position (being unable and unwilling to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term just to satisfy other people's demands), do you think YOU should be forced to continue a pregnancy you can't go through with for a multitude of reasons?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Come in to the real world for just a few minutes. What a deplorable comment.

January

Quote: Graces7
Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Anyone who lives in the real world in Ireland knows how exceptionally hard it is for women to be sterilised. Begging in some cases and still turned away because sure we don't know our own minds we might change them and then regret it or look for it to be reversed so we can have more children. Silly little women.

robarmstrong

For anyone staunch uninformed pro-lifers, read the below excerpts taken from a website with genuine reports to back up their claims. - https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/

"Myth #4 Making Abortion more widely available will result in its use as a method of Contraception/Birth Control.
But the truth is much simpler:
Truth #4: There is no credible evidence that if abortion was more accessible that sexually active people would use abortion as a method of birth control.
Whiff of holier-than-thou misogyny from this one? We think so too.

First of all, abortion, by definition, can’t be used as a method of contraception: abortion occurs after conception.

Semantics aside, in the absence of any credible supporting evidence, there’s nothing to suggest that if abortion access is improved, sexually active people will suddenly ditch hormonal and/or barrier contraceptives in favour of abortion as a primary method of birth control (such as abortion can even be considered a method of birth control)."

Also again if that ismiseuninformedandmakingridiculousclaimsJack could let me know how this would turn into "abortion on demand" considering it's been stated that the process will be heavily monitored and ensured the right is not abused (it'll be done on a case by case basis) I'd also appreciate that. Time to back up your ridiculous claims with fact, rather than opinion.

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

Also Graces7, if you could answer the below questions I'd greatly appreciate it.

Do you fully believe that a woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy to full term against her wishes (she may be in no position to have a baby) just to satisfy your own personal beliefs and morals?

If YOU were in that same position (being unable and unwilling to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term just to satisfy other people's demands), do you think YOU should be forced to continue a pregnancy you can't go through with for a multitude of reasons?

Yes I would( or would have) carry on a pregnancy such as you speak of. Not for the demands and ideas of others but as that life I am carrying is not mine to damage or to destroy.

It is a life of its own
with its own rights to exist and be born and be cherished.

To speak of this as being "forced by society" is not something that would enter into it. Or to speak of it being for the demands pf others.I would have found a way through. To give that life the life it entitled to even if it were the result of rape.
Life is sacred, and to destroy life is outside my power or wish. I do not have the right to kill at whatever level .of development. To abort a baby would destroy the centre of my being.

Was reading this just now

I know it is long and wordy but it says it all for me and for many of us here.

http://corkandross.org/diocesan/two-lives-one-love-pastoral-message-for-2018-on-the-right-to-life/

Thank you all here by the way for enabling me to see the depths and layers of this.

Graces7

January wrote: »

Quote: Graces7
Crisis pregnancy? Inconvenient more like, and maybe they need to think re sterilisation

Anyone who lives in the real world in Ireland knows how exceptionally hard it is for women to be sterilised. Begging in some cases and still turned away because sure we don't know our own minds we might change them and then regret it or look for it to be reversed so we can have more children. Silly little women.

No not silly. Someone I know was made barren by an abortion is all. And bitterly regrets what she did.