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Child Item

Man cleared of murdering trespasser in home with garden shears

Gravelly

Martin Keenan has been cleared of murdering Wesley Mooney after finding the latter in his mobile home, after returning with his wife, and stabbing Mooney with half a garden shears.

The case was the first test of the Defence and the Dwelling Act.

Irish Times - Man found not guilty of murdering trespasser

Is this case a turning point in how Ireland sees the defence of the home?

Personally I am glad Mr. Keenan has been cleared, as I feel that one should have the right to defend home and family.

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[Deleted User]

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Last derail! - that is fascinating stuff - I'd love to see a picture of him if you wouldn't mind?

I have been asked that before a few times and decided against it. Considering he is officially not a legal creature to own in this country - and the questionable methods by which I imported him - and given how small an area I live in and how easily identifiable I would be - it struck me as perhaps not the best thing to do. The day he dies I will likely put a picture heavy tribute to him on boards though.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

On your question - I'm not a legal expert or anything but my understanding of it is, if it was any longer than a year or so ago, I think you probably were technically guilty of false imprisonment, if he wanted to leave you had to let him (legally, not actually!) What's more if your dog had bitten him, he could have sued you and would quite possibly have won. Now, you have no obligation to retreat.

That's all pretty much what I thought yes. I lost a lot of sleep at the time worrying over it that his lawyer would try something. It never came to pass though. So either he had a crap lawyer or for whatever reason they saw no benefit at making that play.

Gravelly

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I always thought citizens arrests only happened on the telly! But no, it actually turns out they are a statute inscribed thing.

Under section 4(1) of The Criminal Law Act 1997, any person may arrest, without a warrant, a person suspected of being in the act of committing an arrestable offence, with section 4(2) covers a person you suspect guilty of having already carried it out.

(Arrestable means punishable by 5 years in prison upon conviction)

You live and learn!

Interesting - in that case I presume if you held a burglar (as long as you did so without the use of violence presumably) you could claim that it was a citizens arrest.

Graces7

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Nobody knows what they would really do .We cant know but we can imagine what we might if our kids were in danger .

Indeed yes, but that is adding a whole new dimension. What use is a half shear except as a personal weapon ?

sbsquarepants

Gravelly wrote: »

Interesting - in that case I presume if you held a burglar (as long as you did so without the use of violence presumably) you could claim that it was a citizens arrest.

Don't know - is burglary punishable by 5 years? Seems like quite a long time?

Not too much of an issue now anyway, as you no longer have to retreat, you're under no obligation to allow them to leave your property, you are within your rights to defend it using whatever force you believe at the time to be required.

Graces7

I doubt anyone would dare to try to enter here; my dog barks ferociously when anyone comes near and I have had workmen refuse to enter until she is locked away behind a closed door. She once refused to let a landlord near; how did she know he had an eviction notice?

Wondering though if boardsies keep any weapon handy? Like half a garden shear?

Akrasia

Gravelly wrote: »

If there are several cases where householders defend their property and family with violence, that leads to death or serious injury for the intruder, and the courts look sympathetically on the householder, it might begin to sink in.

Or more likely, they might continue to burgle, but they might arm themselves in case they are disturbed, and they might be more likely to react violently than just run away.

It's not a good news story when burglers get killed by the householder. A good news story would be if the gardai actually caught the burglers and the courts actually sentenced them and the prison service actually rehabilitated them.

Akrasia

Graces7 wrote: »

I doubt anyone would dare to try to enter here; my dog barks ferociously when anyone comes near and I have had workmen refuse to enter until she is locked away behind a closed door. She once refused to let a landlord near; how did she know he had an eviction notice?

Wondering though if boardsies keep any weapon handy? Like half a garden shear?

Does a plastic light saber count?

seamus

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I always thought citizens arrests only happened on the telly! But no, it actually turns out they are a statute inscribed thing.

Under section 4(1) of The Criminal Law Act 1997, any person may arrest, without a warrant, a person suspected of being in the act of committing an arrestable offence, with section 4(2) covers a person you suspect guilty of having already carried it out.

(Arrestable means punishable by 5 years in prison upon conviction)

You live and learn!

Citizen's arrests are pretty tricky in reality.

Aside from the five year rule, you also need a reasonable belief that the accused will evade or is attempting to evade capture.

And you may only use reasonable force to detain them, you can't knock them unconscious or break their legs to stop them.

"Reasonable" always being the operative word. In taxAHcruel's case, any jury would deem that he had acted very reasonably, and a more in-depth examination would indicate that the burglar was never actually detained but simply stayed put out of fear.

Ultimately it would come down to the solicitor of the burglar to decide if there's a case to answer. And it's rare they'd advise any civil action without huge actual damages. A criminal complaint against a homeowner will virtually always be denied by the DPP unless the intruder has been seriously injured or killed.

Gravelly

Akrasia wrote: »

Or more likely, they might continue to burgle, but they might arm themselves in case they are disturbed, and they might be more likely to react violently than just run away.

This argument has been made already, and the response is the same - many burglars already do arm themselves, and it's doubtful that the ones who don't are unarmed because they feel it is the gentlemanly thing to do.

Akrasia wrote: »

It's not a good news story when burglers get killed by the householder. A good news story would be if the gardai actually caught the burglers and the courts actually sentenced them and the prison service actually rehabilitated them.

That would be great, but until that happens, I'd rather have the option to protect my family if I have to without fear of being prosecuted.

Zubeneschamali

Graces7 wrote: »

What use is a half shear except as a personal weapon ?

It was broken, boss.

[Deleted User]

Graces7 wrote: »

Wondering though if boardsies keep any weapon handy? Like half a garden shear?

There are a lot of weapons one can get actual training in. Some of them are generic enough that they turn ordinary house hold items into weapons because of that training.

As I have done some staff training and Aikido for example I would probably feel safer confronting an intruder with the handle of a sweeping brush or mop in my hands than I would a large knife or garden tool like a shears.

On that note - am I completely dreaming nonsense here or did some scene just jump into my head of Eddie Murphy unscrewing the head off a mop and using it as a weapon? It just popped into my head right now out of nowhere and I have no idea where it just came from.

Gravelly

Deleted User wrote: »

There are a lot of weapons one can get actual training in. Some of them are generic enough that they turn ordinary house hold items into weapons because of that training.

As I have done some staff training and Aikido for example I would probably feel safer confronting an intruder with the handle of a sweeping brush or mop in my hands than I would a large knife or garden tool like a shears.

On that note - am I completely dreaming nonsense here or did some scene just jump into my head of Eddie Murphy unscrewing the head off a mop and using it as a weapon? It just popped into my head right now out of nowhere and I have no idea where it just came from.

The one that springs into my head is yer man that plays Jason Bourne beating the bejaysus out of a fella with a rolled up newspaper. I'd rather take my chances with a hurl myself.

[Deleted User]

Gravelly wrote: »

The one that springs into my head is yer man that plays Jason Bourne beating the bejaysus out of a fella with a rolled up newspaper. I'd rather take my chances with a hurl myself.

Hah found it. What I did not remember was the person he smacks around with the mop is Samuel L Jackson.

I really did not know if my weird brain had invented that memory or not. Nice to know this one was at least real.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

On that note - am I completely dreaming nonsense here or did some scene just jump into my head of Eddie Murphy unscrewing the head off a mop and using it as a weapon? It just popped into my head right now out of nowhere and I have no idea where it just came from.

I think he used a mop on an armed robber in Coming To America.

Gravelly

Deleted User wrote: »

Hah found it. What I did not remember was the person he smacks around with the mop is Samuel L Jackson.

I really did not know if my weird brain had invented that memory or not. Nice to know this one was at least real.

Wow - haven't seen that film in many, many years - didn't even realise Jackson was in it!

Neyite

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think he used a mop on an armed robber in Coming To America.

I was just going to say that. Mad how I can't remember stuff I walk into a room specifically to get but I can remember in a second stuff like this from 20 years ago.

Akrasia

Gravelly wrote: »

This argument has been made already, and the response is the same - many burglars already do arm themselves, and it's doubtful that the ones who don't are unarmed because they feel it is the gentlemanly thing to do.

The unarmed burglers are unarmed because getting caught by the cops with a deadly weapon during a burglary is a more serious offense than burglary on it's own.

But if the burglar feared more that the householder will kill them, then the cops might charge them with aggravated burglary, then they will bring a weapon with them for their own protection.

That would be great, but until that happens, I'd rather have the option to protect my family if I have to without fear of being prosecuted.

This law is there so that if someone does do something in the heat of the moment that they are not prosecuted for murder, but don't think that your family is any safer if you do get into a confrontation with a home invader.
Most of the time a burglar will just run away if confronted, but if you start attacking him with a weapon, he's gonna fight back, especially if you're elderly or seen as vulnerable in some way.

The solution to burglary is better policing, and securing your property with an alarm and other methods to deter burglars.

Gravelly

Akrasia wrote: »

The unarmed burglers are unarmed because getting caught by the cops with a deadly weapon during a burglary is a more serious offense than burglary on it's own.

But if the burglar feared more that the householder will kill them, then the cops might charge them with aggravated burglary, then they will bring a weapon with them for their own protection.

This law is there so that if someone does do something in the heat of the moment that they are not prosecuted for murder, but don't think that your family is any safer if you do get into a confrontation with a home invader.
Most of the time a burglar will just run away if confronted, but if you start attacking him with a weapon, he's gonna fight back, especially if you're elderly or seen as vulnerable in some way.

The solution to burglary is better policing, and securing your property with an alarm and other methods to deter burglars.

You seem to know the mind of burglars extremely well, their motivations, and exactly how they will/would act in any given situation, so I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge. I'm just happier that the law would appear to be on the homeowners side now, rather than the criminals.

ohnonotgmail

Neyite wrote: »

I was just going to say that. Mad how I can't remember stuff I walk into a room specifically to get but I can remember in a second stuff like this from 20 years ago.

30 years ago this year.

Zubeneschamali

Akrasia wrote: »

The solution to burglary is better policing, and securing your property with an alarm and other methods to deter burglars.

I don't believe securing my home will deter burglars from burgling in general, it just deters them from burgling my home - they will burgle an easier target, but only until everyone has an alarm and super locks.

And policing - burglars gonna burgle, so better policing will reduce the interval between them being let out of jail, going on a spree, and being put back in jail, so it reduces the number of burglaries, but they are mostly hopeless cases who fully expect to land back in jail pretty quickly, so you can't really deter them.

Neyite

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

30 years ago this year.

Feck ya for reminding me I'm a decade older than I realised

Road-Hog

....... wrote: »

Absolutely feel the law got it right on this occasion.

This man did not go looking for trouble, he came home and it was waiting for him in his bedroom.

Had he not defended himself and his wife what may have happened? The deceased did not have both arms by his side when he was stabbed so he had at least 1 arm raised and was facing towards the accused.

Still think mr nally should have gotten man slaughter

Road-Hog

....... wrote: »

Absolutely feel the law got it right on this occasion.

This man did not go looking for trouble, he came home and it was waiting for him in his bedroom.

Had he not defended himself and his wife what may have happened? The deceased did not have both arms by his side when he was stabbed so he had at least 1 arm raised and was facing towards the accused.

Still think mr nally should have gotten man slaughter

lightspeed

Akrasia wrote: »

Most of the time a burglar will just run away if confronted, but if you start attacking him with a weapon, he's gonna fight back, especially if you're elderly or seen as vulnerable in some way.

If I have a legally owned shotgun and put a massive whole in his face, how is he going to fight back????

foxy farmer

lightspeed wrote: »

If I have a legally owned shotgun and put a massive whole in his face, how is he going to fight back????

He won't but if you're burgled sometime after in the future you won't be able to resort to the shotgun to defend yourself with. Your licence will have been revoked after the first episode.

suicide_circus

foxy farmer wrote: »

He won't but if you're burgled sometime after in the future you won't be able to resort to the shotgun to defend yourself with. Your licence will have been revoked after the first episode.

They should be awarding him two shotguns

foxy farmer

suicide_circus wrote: »

They should be awarding him two shotguns

Maybe, but as it stands your firearms licence doesnt allow you use it for defence/ protection. If you do it'll be the first thing the Gardai will look for if the crime is reported. And I wouldn't think they'd be returning it after any court proceedings. Ask Padraig Nally.

anewme

Was in the house on my own late one night and had not double locked the door. Heard the door catching on the floor and knew something was up.

Two blokes had forced the door were coming in the hall and I’m a woman upstairs on my own so if they came in, I could not get out passed them.

Well I have never been so angry in my life. I can’t describe it, it was absolute terror mixed with anger. If I had something I would have gone at them had they approached me. I remember thinking I’ll fcking scald these bastards if they come up and irrationally looking for the kettle upstairs.

I said get the bleep bleep bleep bleep out my bleep bleep house. In a shockingly loud voice.

They grabbed a gym bag from the hall and fled on foot with me shouting after them down the road.

Guards said the flash car was a magnet and they were after the keys.

The point is, if I had a knife or something to hand I would have gone at them if they came at me because being a woman I would not have too many chances against a man and I would have felt safer with something to hand. I remember recalling they were skinny junkie yokes and thinking I’ll fcking kill them (metaphorically). I would also not have cared at that moment if they were dead because I felt threatened and just wanted them gone away. Fight or flight kicks in when you are cornered and anything can happen in the heat of the moment.

Gravelly

foxy farmer wrote: »

lightspeed wrote: »

If I have a legally owned shotgun and put a massive whole in his face, how is he going to fight back????

He won't but if you're burgled sometime after in the future

I’d put a large wager that neither Mr. Nally nor Mr. Keenan need ever worry about being burgled again, nor would the poster above in that scenario. A lesson well thought is well learned.