nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

__________________

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Sofiztikated

To be honest, I get why (some) people are ProLife. You want to protect those that have no voice of their own.

To me, I think it stems from them thinking "Well, if my mother had an abortion, I wouldn't be here." But she may also have had a dodgy prawn cocktail before she knew she was pregnant, and the outcome could have been the same. Or another sperm may have made it, and not the one that did, and "you" wouldn't be you.

Pregnancies terminate every day. Both the ones that are wanted, and the ones that aren't. Some people are devestated, some will be glad. And women have been ending pregnancies since day dot. Be it gin and a hot bath, or a pill they bought online, it happens. Why not make it safer for the ones that require it, and support for those that are on the fence?

Look, I say this as a 34 year old married man, who had a pregnancy scare with girlfriend (now wife), and a miscarriage of a much wanted baby, and someone who was told by his mother that, had she known about my condition and the horrors both she and I went through and was easily available, she would have considered an abortion (and that was '83, full swing of the last referendum, and you had stamps like this http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1225698/original/?width=373&version=1225698)

Make it safe, make it shameless, and make it not needed.

And lads, it's not like adoption is a bunch of ****ing roses either. There were, what, 16(?) last year, and so much for the Married Gheys adopting all the babbies. It's a long, hard, ****ty process, we don't exactly have a stellar history (to this very day) of looking after children IN care, and you want to dump a load more into care? Please tell me how that's in anyway way kinder than ending a pregnancy before it has a chance to feel pain?

Frank Bullitt

So not is Noel Pattern not a nurse, he is also a gobshíte.

Edward M

JDD wrote: »

Well, then in the case where it is not a matter of financial concern, nor is there realistically a prospect of her handing over a child to you to raise, what would you do? Supposing she asked you to mind her children while she travelled with her husband to the UK for a termination? Maybe she wouldn’t ask you knowing your views, so she travels on her own, having to stay the night in a local hotel suffering intense cramps and bleeding on her own. She wouldn’t want
to leave her children for longer than she had to, so she continues to have cramps and bleeding while she gets a taxi to the airport, and on the airplane. Or she decides to order pills over the internet, all the while worrying that if she suffers from any side effects and goes to A&E will they call the guards. Do you think it would be an acceptable situation for your daughter to be faced with?[unrelated,

Firstly, I would think and hope that my daughters know they can talk to me about anything, they would know also that my help would be available in all situations now.
Another point, unrelated in a way, but an experience I could have had but thankfully never did, others have had it though.
If my daughters had become pregnant at an early age, under 18 say or much younger even, and abortion had been considered as her option, would or should that give me or her mother the right to choose for her as her legal guardians?
If she wasn't fully developed and we felt that this would harm her physically let alone mentally.
What if she wanted the abortion and we didn't?
So many valid questions to be asked and answered here, there can't be the same answer to them all for every eventual outcome, so on that and other issues I reckon that an abortion service has to be available really, it is the only humanitarian solution really.

nozzferrahhtoo

Edward M wrote: »

I have manipulated them all my life, especially when they were younger, to do what I thought was in their best interests, re education particularly.

Edward M wrote: »

You' feel dirty manipulating your children and shudder at the thought, don't make me laugh

This is why I peppered my last two points with reference to words like "context". I clearly am not saying, nor did I intend to imply, that there is no situation where you want to manipulate and compel your children in certain directions.

What I was saying was repulsive to me is a LOT more nuanced and specific than what you describe as mere general parenting. What I was describing, and what you are now describing, are two very different things in many ways.

JDD

Edward M wrote: »

No I'm not really. Our first grandchild is due next month BTW.
I know full well abortion covers all ages and reasons.

Well, then in the case where it is not a matter of financial concern, nor is there realistically a prospect of her handing over a child to you to raise, what would you do? Supposing she asked you to mind her children while she travelled with her husband to the UK for a termination? Maybe she wouldn’t ask you knowing your views, so she travels on her own, having to stay the night in a local hotel suffering intense cramps and bleeding on her own. She wouldn’t want
to leave her children for longer than she had to, so she continues to have cramps and bleeding while she gets a taxi to the airport, and on the airplane. Or she decides to order pills over the internet, all the while worrying that if she suffers from any side effects and goes to A&E will they call the guards. Do you think it would be an acceptable situation for your daughter to be faced with?

volchitsa

Bringing a child into a young and possibly unstable relationship is not good for the young people involved. All the evidence shows that having a baby when young leads to less good outcomes.

So any forcible incitement is being done for ideological reasons and not for the good of the person being "manipulated". Which is what makes it manipulation rather than tough parenting IMO.

Edward M

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

As I said in the opening of my post, my standards I only apply to myself. The parenting of others neither needs to meet it, nor do I ever apply one to the other generally.

I just know I would feel dirty in myself if I ever contrived to manipulate such serious life choices in my children. Especially by offering things that I feel I should be offering as a parent anyway, in the form of compulsions, incentives and manipulation.

I think I just prefer the dynamic of "These are the things you can expect from me always as a parent, pleasure ensure you factor them into whatever choice you decide to make" over "If you would only make these choices, then here are the things I can offer you as an incentive to do so".

Foah, just shivered again. I do not often feel this much revulsion at envisioning alternative versions of myself. But the thought of operating that dynamic in a relationship with my children is exactly that. Repulsive.

I don't know your age, nor how long you are a parent.
I do know from experience the first thing a child learns is how to manipulate their parents.
I also know from my own experience that one of the first things I learned was how to manipulate my children, firstly to just get a bit of peace and quiet for myself and my partner or wife.
I have manipulated them all my life, especially when they were younger, to do what I thought was in their best interests, re education particularly.
I never stooped so low as making or forcing any lifestyle decisions on them, I showed them choices, I offered them assistance at every turn.
Did I manipulate them, yes, as their guardian I did offer them things for certain that I thought might help them make decisions that I thought were for their better good.
When they became adults I stepped back and let them make their own decisions on any matter they liked, if I didn't like it I told them so and why, like for instance I told my son if he quit college one time that he would have to either get a job or live on what social welfare was available to him, no financial help from me.
He stayed on, got his degree and is working full time now, I borrowed from the credit union to buy his first car as a reward.
You' feel dirty manipulating your children and shudder at the thought, don't make me laugh,
If there is a parent alive who hasn't manipulated a child I'd like to meet them.

nice_guy80

Presage wrote: »

Nope, the entire equation needs to be considered, it's not balck and white.

what equation?
its not maths

we're talking about a woman's body here and her right to have a choice

kylith

Presage wrote: »

Nope, the entire equation needs to be considered, it's not balck and white.

Please explain how.

Two people are in a relationship. They want to have sex, but do not want a baby. They use contraception, but it fails. Some people will tell them that they should have thought about that before they had sex, and tough luck; they have to have the baby.

How is that not saying that sex should only be had if they are prepared to have a baby?

seamus

Presage wrote: »

It does differ, the mother had no choice in the matter much like the unborn child has no choice in the matter when it comes to rape.

It differs from the mother's perspective, not the unborn's.

In the case of consensual sex the mother had a choice in the matter and should be aware that there is a risk of becoming pregnant when having sex. Morality is not simply black and white, it is often a quite complex equation where the balance can be tipped by some minor changes to the assumptions.

So the unborn is irrelevant then. People who become unintentionally pregnant through consensual sex should be forced to carry to term, but those who've been raped...shouldn't.

Why? Bearing in mind that through your statement above you've basically discounted the unborn in your reasoning; it's all about the circumstances of the conception, not the result of it. So why should consensual sex be "punished" when non-consensual shouldn't?

nozzferrahhtoo

Edward M wrote: »

I'm not the worlds best dad, but I have tried to be the best dad I was or am capable of being, if that doesent meet your approval or high standards so be it.

As I said in the opening of my post, my standards I only apply to myself. The parenting of others neither needs to meet it, nor do I ever apply one to the other generally.

I just know I would feel dirty in myself if I ever contrived to manipulate such serious life choices in my children. Especially by offering things that I feel I should be offering as a parent anyway, in the form of compulsions, incentives and manipulation.

I think I just prefer the dynamic of "These are the things you can expect from me always as a parent, pleasure ensure you factor them into whatever choice you decide to make" over "If you would only make these choices, then here are the things I can offer you as an incentive to do so".

Foah, just shivered again. I do not often feel this much revulsion at envisioning alternative versions of myself. But the thought of operating that dynamic in a relationship with my children is exactly that. Repulsive.

Edward M

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The way I would judge parenting for myself, which tends to be the only way I try to judge parenting, I would consider that the wrong choice for me. I would think of it as simply bad parenting and I would be disappointed in myself. To use any power, let alone all of it, to try and motivate or influence their decision in the direction I want them to go is..... in this context.......... a level of parenting I would never want to implement. I would consider myself a failure in that moment.

For me the right path would be to ensure they are fully informed off ALL their options and the implication of each one. I would ensure I inform them of options that might not have considered or even know about. And with options they had considered or known about I would ensure they had explored the implications and potentials of each. Positives and Negatives.

And they would be fully informed of what support I can and would offer for each of those options. What my role would or could be, if any, in each option.

And then the decision would be theirs. At no point in that process would I use any power or influence to attempt to direct which option they go with. I would never offer any support as an incentive like your describe, but offer it as a default given whichever way they go or do not go.

To do it any other way would undermine pretty much every principle and goal I hold as a parent and what I feel it means to me to BE a parent. Which for me is to create autonomous people who choose their own path in life rather than extensions of myself doing the things I would do in their situation for my own reasons. As a parent I want them to know their decisions are their own, and not something they chose because I piled pressure (positive or negative) in such a way as they felt compelled to make the decision I constructed to look like the best one for them in a dirty, contrived and manipulative fashion. I physically shiver in revulsion at even the thought of it.

I had this interaction earlier in the thread with a pro choice supporter, who made a similar post re her son and partner, Banasidhe I think, where she offered incentives to her sons partner about a pregnancy, I said I thought that was imposing a bit on choice myself.
OK, but that's another debate, re parenting.
I'm not the worlds best dad, but I have tried to be the best dad I was or am capable of being, if that doesent meet your approval or high standards so be it.

PhoenixParker

JDD wrote: »

Edward M - I think you’re falling into the trap of only considering abortion in the case of a young, perhaps unmarried daughter. Fast forward another 20 years. Your daughter has three kids. Her health, but not her life, would be at risk if carrying another child to full term. What would you do then?

And this is a very common scenario.
Approximately half of those having abortions already have at least one child.

Edward M

JDD wrote: »

Edward M - I think you’re falling into the trap of only considering abortion in the case of a young, perhaps unmarried daughter. Fast forward another 20 years. Your daughter has three kids. Her health, but not her life, would be at risk if carrying another child to full term. What would you do then?

No I'm not really. Our first grandchild is due next month BTW.
I know full well abortion covers all ages and reasons.

kylith

Presage wrote: »

It does differ, the mother had no choice in the matter much like the unborn child has no choice in the matter when it comes to rape.

In the case of consensual sex the mother had a choice in the matter and should be aware that there is a risk of becoming pregnant when having sex. Morality is not simply black and white, it is often a quite complex equation where the balance can be tipped by some minor changes to the assumptions.

So we’re back to ‘people should only have sex if they’re prepared to have a baby’.

JDD

Edward M - I think you’re falling into the trap of only considering abortion in the case of a young, perhaps unmarried daughter. Fast forward another 20 years. Your daughter has three kids. Her health, but not her life, would be at risk if carrying another child to full term. What would you do then?

nozzferrahhtoo

Edward M wrote: »

Firstly, I would do everything in my power, and I don't mean forcibly stop, to persuade them to go ahead with the pregnancy, I would offer every possible incentive, both supportively and financially, even to the point of offering to bring up the child and allowing them space in their lives to do what they feel they need to do, with the hope they might eventually be able to become the parent of their child.

The way I would judge parenting for myself, which tends to be the only way I try to judge parenting, I would consider that the wrong choice for me. I would think of it as simply bad parenting and I would be disappointed in myself. To use any power, let alone all of it, to try and motivate or influence their decision in the direction I want them to go is..... in this context.......... a level of parenting I would never want to implement. I would consider myself a failure in that moment.

For me the right path would be to ensure they are fully informed off ALL their options and the implication of each one. I would ensure I inform them of options that might not have considered or even know about. And with options they had considered or known about I would ensure they had explored the implications and potentials of each. Positives and Negatives.

And they would be fully informed of what support I can and would offer for each of those options. What my role would or could be, if any, in each option.

And then the decision would be theirs. At no point in that process would I use any power or influence to attempt to direct which option they go with. I would never offer any support as an incentive like your describe, but offer it as a default given whichever way they go or do not go.

To do it any other way would undermine pretty much every principle and goal I hold as a parent and what I feel it means to me to BE a parent. Which for me is to create autonomous people who choose their own path in life rather than extensions of myself doing the things I would do in their situation for my own reasons. As a parent I want them to know their decisions are their own, and not something they chose because I piled pressure (positive or negative) in such a way as they felt compelled to make the decision I constructed to look like the best one for them in a dirty, contrived and manipulative fashion. I physically shiver in revulsion at even the thought of it.

volchitsa

Presage wrote: »

It does differ, the mother had no choice in the matter much like the unborn child has no choice in the matter when it comes to rape.

In the case of consensual sex the mother had a choice in the matter and should be aware that there is a risk of becoming pregnant when having sex. Morality is not simply black and white, it is often a quite complex equation where the balance can be tipped by some minor changes to the assumptions.

The act may well differ morally, but if we base our law on abortion on that difference, it means that the unborn's life is not that important in itself, but is dependent on the circumstances of its conception.

Which clearly makes no sense at all. The only way such a distinction can make sense is if we conclude that the unborn's life is less important than the well being of the mother. So the 8th needs to go. Because the two are not equal.

volchitsa

Edward M wrote: »

The world is full of great daughters, not just mine.
I've been hypocritical at times on thread when I look back on my posts, believe it or not that's not because I'm a hypocrite really, that's because this is such an emotive issue and it tears at ones own beliefs as against reality if placed in the situation of it happening to you or your loved ones.
I admit the use of language, dehumanising as I see it towards the pregnancy, calling of names to people opposed to repeal because of their opinion, mostly my own beliefs too, as I can easily empathise with the pro life points as well.
In the end, how can I be critical of choice, because if my daughters did make a choice as I have outlined, I would definitely support them to the hilt.

This really is the nub of the issue. I remember the late Peter Mathews, after one of the recent controversies, either Miss Y or Savita I think, arguing against the right to abortion, and then, when asked about how he would react if his own daughter had a crisis pregnancy blithely saying that he would support her in her choice!

I mean WTF?? That is a pro choice view - but only for his own children? But nobody seemed to pick him up on it.

So yes, thank you for having the honesty and fairness to accept that this "choice for my children" requires "choice for other people's children too". No matter what one thinks of abortion. The only honest alternative is to say you would prefer to see your daughter restrained and force fed like the HSE wanted to do to Miss Y.
Which is why prolife posters always dance around the question.

seamus

Edward M wrote: »

But I will talk as a father here.
If either of my daughters decided at any stage in their lives they wanted or needed an abortion and came to me for help, what would I do?
Firstly, I would do everything in my power, and I don't mean forcibly stop, to persuade them to go ahead with the pregnancy, I would offer every possible incentive, both supportively and financially, even to the point of offering to bring up the child and allowing them space in their lives to do what they feel they need to do, with the hope they might eventually be able to become the parent of their child.

Just exercising concept muscles here, I'm not trying to "gotcha":

What if they had come to you and told you they'd been raped by an adult neighbour - say someone your age - and were now pregnant?

Would the above honestly hold, that you would try to persuade them to hold onto their rapist's baby and then offer to bring up the child a few doors down from its rapist father?

I always just find the rape issue curious - people are far more prepared to support abortion in the case of rape than in the case of need, yet a conception from rape does not differ at all - morally, ethically or physically - from one conceived of consensual sex.

robarmstrong

kylith wrote: »

And if your daughters decided to have an abortion, for whatever reason, do you think they should have to travel to the uk, or would you want them to be able to have it in Ireland, where they could be taken care of at home, by their family, afterward?

I would be inclined to say Edward would go for the latter. He clearly is of the view his daughters are more important than his own personal beliefs (we both share that view), he wouldn't forcibly stop them as stated but if he couldn't persuade them he would do his utmost to support their choice, as any father or decent human sized being would do.

[Deleted User]

Edward, maybe you should ask your wife, if she had to decide between the life of her, already existing daughter & the 8 week old foetus inside her daughter, which would she choose?

I understand people who do not agree with abortion on moral grounds, whether I agree or not , but this referendum is about so much more than just abortion. It's about women's right to healthcare & the option of those women to choose what they think is right for them. They do not have the option at the moment if they are pregnant.

Would you wife agree with one of your daughters being kept alive on a life support machine, slowly dying & rotting away in front of you, because she was pregnant, with a pregnancy that couldn't possibly survive?

kylith

Edward M wrote: »

I can easily see robarmstrongs point re his daughter, or anyone's daughter for that matter.
I have two daughters, now both are against abortion, and both are still not sure how they will vote as yet, my wife has said she is voting no.
No harm in talking of options here, even though you might be crucified for your opinion or stance.
But I will talk as a father here.
If either of my daughters decided at any stage in their lives they wanted or needed an abortion and came to me for help, what would I do?
Firstly, I would do everything in my power, and I don't mean forcibly stop, to persuade them to go ahead with the pregnancy, I would offer every possible incentive, both supportively and financially, even to the point of offering to bring up the child and allowing them space in their lives to do what they feel they need to do, with the hope they might eventually be able to become the parent of their child.
If for some reason they couldn't have the baby because of my offer, or if they never even told me of it until later, or if they went ahead and aborted and I found it out accidentally later, I would still love and respect and support in any way possible my daughters.
So maybe I might not be pro choice, in my mind anyway, but realistically if placed in the situation I mentioned in my own circumstances, I would accept my own daughters choices, I know I would, because I have great daughters.
The world is full of great daughters, not just mine.
I've been hypocritical at times on thread when I look back on my posts, believe it or not that's not because I'm a hypocrite really, that's because this is such an emotive issue and it tears at ones own beliefs as against reality if placed in the situation of it happening to you or your loved ones.
I admit the use of language, dehumanising as I see it towards the pregnancy, calling of names to people opposed to repeal because of their opinion, mostly my own beliefs too, as I can easily empathise with the pro life points as well.
In the end, how can I be critical of choice, because if my daughters did make a choice as I have outlined, I would definitely support them to the hilt.

And if your daughters decided to have an abortion, for whatever reason, do you think they should have to travel to the uk, or would you want them to be able to have it in Ireland, where they could be taken care of at home, by their family, afterward?

Edward M

I can easily see robarmstrongs point re his daughter, or anyone's daughter for that matter.
I have two daughters, now both are against abortion, and both are still not sure how they will vote as yet, my wife has said she is voting no.
No harm in talking of options here, even though you might be crucified for your opinion or stance.
But I will talk as a father here.
If either of my daughters decided at any stage in their lives they wanted or needed an abortion and came to me for help, what would I do?
Firstly, I would do everything in my power, and I don't mean forcibly stop, to persuade them to go ahead with the pregnancy, I would offer every possible incentive, both supportively and financially, even to the point of offering to bring up the child and allowing them space in their lives to do what they feel they need to do, with the hope they might eventually be able to become the parent of their child.
If for some reason they couldn't have the baby because of my offer, or if they never even told me of it until later, or if they went ahead and aborted and I found it out accidentally later, I would still love and respect and support in any way possible my daughters.
So maybe I might not be pro choice, in my mind anyway, but realistically if placed in the situation I mentioned in my own circumstances, I would accept my own daughters choices, I know I would, because I have great daughters.
The world is full of great daughters, not just mine.
I've been hypocritical at times on thread when I look back on my posts, believe it or not that's not because I'm a hypocrite really, that's because this is such an emotive issue and it tears at ones own beliefs as against reality if placed in the situation of it happening to you or your loved ones.
I admit the use of language, dehumanising as I see it towards the pregnancy, calling of names to people opposed to repeal because of their opinion, mostly my own beliefs too, as I can easily empathise with the pro life points as well.
In the end, how can I be critical of choice, because if my daughters did make a choice as I have outlined, I would definitely support them to the hilt.

robarmstrong

Ismisejack wrote: »

Dirty tactics being used by you and not just u but many on your side . Labeling pro life stance as backwards and behind the time. There is nothing backwards in standing up for the most vulnerable in society, so stop shaming people with pro life views with such derogatory and utterly false, untrue labels

Ah here now you're not even being subtle at this point anymore.

Pro-life stance is backwards and behind the time. Do you or do you not agree that a woman (a born, existing citizen) should have more rights than an unborn citizen of up to 12 weeks?

The most vulnerable in society? They haven't even become part of society.

uptherebels

Ismisejack wrote: »

Dirty tactics being used by you and not just u but many on your side . Labeling pro life stance as backwards and behind the time. There is nothing backwards in standing up for the most vulnerable in society, so stop shaming people with pro life views with such derogatory and utterly false, untrue labels

an anti choicer giving out about dirty tactics:rolleyes:
and just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue;)

January

Because rte isn't biased to one side. You only have to look at the coverage on the news to see that. :rolleyes:

Youth defence and the bishops Council also refused to reveal their funding. Where's the outrage at that?

erica74

Ismisejack wrote: »

Dirty tactics being used by you and not just u but many on your side . Labeling pro life stance as backwards and behind the time. There is nothing backwards in standing up for the most vulnerable in society, so stop shaming people with pro life views with such derogatory and utterly false, untrue labels

Who are "the most vulnerable in society"?

Ismisejack

robarmstrong wrote: »

I would absolutely love if abortion was never needed and you're absolutely right it is impossible.

But I'm not sending my daughter on a plane to a foreign country because her own country is too backwards to support her right and her choice.

Dirty tactics being used by you and not just u but many on your side . Labeling pro life stance as backwards and behind the time. There is nothing backwards in standing up for the most vulnerable in society, so stop shaming people with pro life views with such derogatory and utterly false, untrue labels

Oldtree

All I'm hearing at the moment from the anti repeal posters is this, and I would remind you that this progressive view is from 1983!