Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

blackwhite wrote: »

No Johnny. It's actually you engaging in wordplay.

You know perfectly well that for all Irish parties there's a world of difference between the Parliamentary Party and the party itself.
Being expelled from the PP (otherwise referred to a "losing the party whip") for a period of time is a standard enough punishment across all parties when a TD votes against a stated party position. And similarly - anyone losing the party whip is going to be expected to give up any ministries or positions they have by virtue of their position within their party.

Firstly, what petty digs?

Secondly, when the Taoiseach and leader of your own party asks for you to tender your resignation, that is pretty much your marching orders in any other industry.

In contrast - let's look at the Frances Fitzgerald incident.

The (during that incident) Taoiseach and leader of FG stated quite clearly that he wouldn't seek her resignation, nor accept it If she offered it.

See the difference?

The vast majority of TDs simply wait out their time, and are re-instated after a period (see Toibin in SF as an example on the same issue as Lucinda). Lucinda chose otherwise and decided to leave the party. Very different from actually being expelled

The difference is Creighton was asked to resign.

Toibin was not.

but why bother with the truth when you can make some petty digs instead sure?

Satire?

blackwhite

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You're engaging in word play.

She was expelled from the P.P, and (she says)

Taoiseach asked me to resign:

No Johnny. It's actually you engaging in wordplay.

You know perfectly well that for all Irish parties there's a world of difference between the Parliamentary Party and the party itself.
Being expelled from the PP (otherwise referred to a "losing the party whip") for a period of time is a standard enough punishment across all parties when a TD votes against a stated party position. And similarly - anyone losing the party whip is going to be expected to give up any ministries or positions they have by virtue of their position within their party.

The vast majority of TDs simply wait out their time, and are re-instated after a period (see Toibin in SF as an example on the same issue as Lucinda). Lucinda chose otherwise and decided to leave the party. Very different from actually being expelled - but why bother with the truth when you can make some petty digs instead sure?

Jawgap wrote: »

yes, really -

....and where does the link you posted say whe was expelled from FG?

It says she was expelled from the PP.....

.....but losing a party whip doesn't automaticatically mean loss of membership of the wider party.

You're engaging in word play.

She was expelled from the P.P, and (she says)

Taoiseach asked me to resign:

Speaking via video link from Leinster House to TV3′s Tonight With Vincent Browne, Creighton said that she gave her letter of resignation to the Taoiseach immediately after her vote, saying:

When probed by Browne why she had done that

Quite frankly because I was asked to. I had already lost the whip of the party so the consequences were pretty apparent to me and I didn’t really want to drag it out.”

Jawgap wrote: »

No, like everyone else they, and the other parties allowing a free vote, recognise what a complex issue it is and the fairest thing is to allow people to vote their conscience.

Suggesting that something as deep, personal and complex as abortion can be expressed as a party political position is, frankly, ridiculous - but there again, as SF repeatedly demonstrate, the reidiculous is where they eat their breakfast, lunch and dinner.

But, it is about legislation. And legislation that will allow the choice you are talking about.

Is that not what a political party should be primarily interested in?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG allowing a free vote is just a form of cowardice.
They know there would be a damaging revolt if they didn't allow it.

I curiously enough, understand that, it is not an easy issue for anyone.

I also understand a party wanting legislative change on the issue and taking a 'party' position on it. That is ideally how political party's work.

Free votes mean you are just a collection of independents.

No, like everyone else they, and the other parties allowing a free vote, recognise what a complex issue it is and the fairest thing is to allow people to vote their conscience.

Suggesting that something as deep, personal and complex as abortion can be expressed as a party political position is, frankly, ridiculous - but there again, as SF repeatedly demonstrate, the reidiculous is where they eat their breakfast, lunch and dinner.

FG allowing a free vote is just a form of cowardice.
They know there would be a damaging revolt if they didn't allow it.

I curiously enough, understand that, it is not an easy issue for anyone.

I also understand a party wanting legislative change on the issue and taking a 'party' position on it. That is ideally how political party's work.

Free votes mean you are just a collection of independents.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Really?

yes, really -

Renua Ireland leader Lucinda Creighton has insisted she has no regrets about leaving Fine Gael, claiming it is an undemocratic party.

....and where does the link you posted say whe was expelled from FG?

It says she was expelled from the PP.....

Ms Creighton has been automatically expelled from the Fine Gael parliamentary party as a result.

.....but losing a party whip doesn't automaticatically mean loss of membership of the wider party.

Jawgap wrote: »

She was dumped from the PP for defying the whip and resigned as an MoS......

......however, she's pretty clear that she left FG - she wasn't expelled from the party.

Paschal Donohoe has been appointed Minister of State for European Affairs after Lucinda Creighton voted against the Government in a vote on the abortion legislation.

Ms Creighton has been automatically expelled from the Fine Gael parliamentary party as a result.

Really?

Jawgap wrote: »

Did I say they had - I just pointed out that SF, more than most, has a bit of a track record of expelling people for uncomradely behaviour.

So much ado about nothing only a pretty shocking bias then. :rolleyes:

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

That's not true.

She was automatically expelled from the party, and she is on record of stating that Enda personally asked her to resign.

She was dumped from the PP for defying the whip and resigned as an MoS......

......however, she's pretty clear that she left FG - she wasn't expelled from the party.

Jawgap wrote: »

Did I say they had - I just pointed out that SF, more than most, has a bit of a track record of expelling people for uncomradely behaviour.

There goes the goalposts.

Your position shifted yet again I see.

The idea that if you disagree you should leave is very SF and one of the reasons why their ideas lack imagination and are driven by populism

What's Lucinda at these days?

no one forced her to leave

She was automatically expelled from the party, and she is on record of stating that Enda personally asked her to resign

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have they expelled anyone over their 8th position?

All parties have to expel members for 'uncomradely behaviour'.

Do we need to go into the lists again? :rolleyes:

Did I say they had - I just pointed out that SF, more than most, has a bit of a track record of expelling people for uncomradely behaviour.

Jawgap wrote: »

Have SF not expelled people for 'uncomradely behaviour'?

Have they expelled anyone over their 8th position?

All parties have to expel members for 'uncomradely behaviour'.

Do we need to go into the lists again? :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who was forced to leave SF?
Peadar Tobin is in there fighting for his views.

Allowing a free vote when you are paying lipservice to legislative change is contrary to the point of a 'political party' and is a form of cowardice too.
All political parties use the whip when it suits them.

Why not just all be independents?

Cheap shot again Jawgap.

Have SF not expelled people for 'uncomradely behaviour'?

Jawgap wrote: »

Which kind of proves the point - no one forced her to leave (FG are not SF), and FG went on to stay in power and allow their reps a free vote and to campaign in a way that sits comfortably with their conscience.

I would've thought SF would simply do the same - but their again they may regard such freedoms as dangerous.

Who was forced to leave SF?
Peadar Tobin is in there fighting for his views.

Allowing a free vote when you are paying lipservice to legislative change is contrary to the point of a 'political party' and is a form of cowardice too.
All political parties use the whip when it suits them.

Why not just all be independents?

Cheap shot again Jawgap.

Jawgap wrote: »

Which kind of proves the point - no one forced her to leave (FG are not SF), and FG went on to stay in power and allow their reps a free vote and to campaign in a way that sits comfortably with their conscience.

I would've thought SF would simply do the same - but their again they may regard such freedoms as dangerous.

That's not true.

She was automatically expelled from the party, and she is on record of stating that Enda personally asked her to resign.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

What's Lucinda at these days?

Which kind of proves the point - no one forced her to leave (FG are not SF), and FG went on to stay in power and allow their reps a free vote and to campaign in a way that sits comfortably with their conscience.

I would've thought SF would simply do the same - but their again they may regard such freedoms as dangerous.

Jawgap wrote: »

Well that's not how SF works, but plenty of political parties - including those that are the most successful in the Republic at getting into and staying in power - manage to accommodate a plurality of views.

Indeed, it's more than arguable that the competition of ideas that such plurality fosters, is to the betterment of the party........as LBJ said "better to have them inside the tent......etc etc etc"

The idea that if you disagree you should leave is very SF and one of the reasons why their ideas lack imagination and are driven by populism.

Should the TDs and councillors who marched with Brolly (per the article) also leave SF?

What's Lucinda at these days?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe Brolly should join Renua and see how he gets on>

The party, it seems to me, decided democratically at an Ard Fheis what it's 'party' position would be. And, as is right, may need to convene another Ard Fheis to refine their position.

Like all parties, there are some who are struggling with it, as most people do struggle with this issue.

Of course, as is usual, there is a media waiting with open arms (and Boardsies) to portray this as being unique to SF.

If you are in a political party only as long as it represents your private views, then I am sorry, that isn't how it works.
It is why I could never be a member of any party.

Well that's not how SF works, but plenty of political parties - including those that are the most successful in the Republic at getting into and staying in power - manage to accommodate a plurality of views.

Indeed, it's more than arguable that the competition of ideas that such plurality fosters, is to the betterment of the party........as LBJ said "better to have them inside the tent......etc etc etc"

The idea that if you disagree you should leave is very SF and one of the reasons why their ideas lack imagination and are driven by populism.

Should the TDs and councillors who marched with Brolly (per the article) also leave SF?

recedite wrote: »

Maybe in RoI, but you can't blame Failte Ireland for turning the day into a shinnerfest in NI.

Complete and utter horse manure.

If any kind of "fest" exists in the north on St Patrick's day, it's from local communities and the AOH, who usually commence their local parades after mass.

It's not a day of note in the republican calender at all.

Jawgap wrote: »

Well I think it's self-explanatory so feel free to take the words at their ordinary meeting......

......kind of curious that if, as you suggest, the party position is so settled and everyone is so comfortable with it why should such an article appear?

Indeed, why would an apparent party loyalist be moved to use the word "fascist" when describing the party of which he is a member.....

......but per your mantra - nothing to see here?

Maybe Brolly should join Renua and see how he gets on>

The party, it seems to me, decided democratically at an Ard Fheis what it's 'party' position would be. And, as is right, may need to convene another Ard Fheis to refine their position.

Like all parties, there are some who are struggling with it, as most people do struggle with this issue.

Of course, as is usual, there is a media waiting with open arms (and Boardsies) to portray this as being unique to SF.

If you are in a political party only as long as it represents your private views, then I am sorry, that isn't how it works.
It is why I could never be a member of any party.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

First of all could you explain what you mean by the bolded bit?

They had a vote at an Ard Fheis on what the party position would be on the 8th Amendment.

Is this the delegates where either 'drugged, intimidated, hypontised into following the directions of old beardy RA men from the hills of South Armagh' slant again? Coz I'm out if it is this nonsense.

Well I think it's self-explanatory so feel free to take the words at their ordinary meeting......

......kind of curious that if, as you suggest, the party position is so settled and everyone is so comfortable with it why should such an article appear?

Indeed, why would an apparent party loyalist be moved to use the word "fascist" when describing the party of which he is a member.....

Mr Brolly...... claimed it was “fundamentally wrong” and “fascist” not to allow a free vote. Sinn Féin has rejected motions calling for free votes at a number of ardfheisheanna.

......but per your mantra - nothing to see here?

Jawgap wrote: »

Love it - Spin Fein at it's best :D:D

They had a free vote to bind members in to an absolute party position - a free vote to deny a future free vote - honestly, if George Orwell came up with some of the stuff that came out of SF he'd never have been published for excess of such ridiculousness in his writings.

......and do tell, when this 'free vote' was held, was the idea of "Repeal and Replace' along with abortion without restriction up to 12 weeks being touted as future government policy? I'm sure you can post evidence to show it was

First of all could you explain what you mean by the bolded bit?

They had a vote at an Ard Fheis on what the party position would be on the 8th Amendment.

Is this the delegates where either 'drugged, intimidated, hypontised into following the directions of old beardy RA men from the hills of South Armagh' slant again? Coz I'm out if it is this nonsense.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ignorance of the events tripping you up again.

The party had a free vote on it's position.

Allowing individual members a 'free vote' after that democratic party decision flies in the face of being in a party in the first place.

Those with a problem should be like me, don't be in a political party if you cannot accept that you are going to have to toe the party line when that party wants to change legislation/the constitution etc.

Love it - Spin Fein at it's best

:D:D

They had a free vote to bind members in to an absolute party position - a free vote to deny a future free vote - honestly, if George Orwell came up with some of the stuff that came out of SF he'd never have been published for excess of such ridiculousness in his writings.

......and do tell, when this 'free vote' was held, was the idea of "Repeal and Replace' along with abortion without restriction up to 12 weeks being touted as future government policy? I'm sure you can post evidence to show it was

Jawgap wrote: »

.......and what happened to those TDs and what happened to the party they left?

.....I think most parties, like most people, recognise the nature of the issue and therefore opted for free votes - but I guess SF are not most parties and, as I posted, allowing free votes is just not in their DNA - sure people might get a bit of a taste for that kind of party democracy.

Ignorance of the events tripping you up again.

The party had a free vote on it's position.

Allowing individual members a 'free vote' after that democratic party decision flies in the face of being in a party in the first place.

Those with a problem should be like me, don't be in a political party if you cannot accept that you are going to have to toe the party line when that party wants to change legislation/the constitution etc.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More of an own goal than facilitating the defection of a number of high profile TD's and the establishment of a new competing political party?

I think all parties are struggling on this issue tbh and fair.

.......and what happened to those TDs and what happened to the party they left?

.....I think most parties, like most people, recognise the nature of the issue and therefore opted for free votes - but I guess SF are not most parties and, as I posted, allowing free votes is just not in their DNA - sure people might get a bit of a taste for that kind of party democracy.

Jawgap wrote: »

potentially an even greater own goal......

Sinn Féin MLAs ‘very uneasy’ about abortion policy

I guess the last thing SF want is people voting their conscience who knows where radical ideas like free votes might lead........

More of an own goal than facilitating the defection of a number of high profile TD's and the establishment of a new competing political party?

I think all parties are struggling on this issue tbh and fair.

potentially an even greater own goal......

Sinn Féin MLAs ‘very uneasy’ about abortion policy

Mr Brolly said he was in contact with MLAs and had previously written to them requesting their support for a free vote in Sinn Féin on abortion.

He achieved a “lot of support, although they are not going to be upfront and vocal” and claimed it was “fundamentally wrong” and “fascist” not to allow a free vote. Sinn Féin has rejected motions calling for free votes at a number of ardfheisheanna.

I guess the last thing SF want is people voting their conscience who knows where radical ideas like free votes might lead........

jm08

recedite wrote: »

Even if its the same, its different. A band of pipers marching under a tricolour means something different up there.

Except from the photos I've looked at (search Belfast St. Patricks Day Parade), there are no tricolours. Everyone seems to be flying green flags with a white shamrock.

Does that suggest that the Shinners have nothing to do with it then?