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Is private health care a scam?

Dr Brown

I'm on the waiting list to see a consultant and I'm told the waiting list is 3 years long.

But if I want to see the same Doctor privately I can get an appointment within 6 weeks.

It seems to me that they want to push people over to the private system.

Nobody is going to wait 3 years to see a consultant if there are other options.

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andekwarhola

kneemos wrote: »

What the hell kind of a health service has you waiting three years to see a consultant?

One where untouchable, byzantine levels of management, indentured to the public purse, are more important than the actual service.

JellieBabie

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You can get a policy with zero excess, it will be more expensive though, however if you can afford health insurance you'll likely be able to pay the couple of hundred excess.

I dunno about that. I pay a lot for health insurance and if you get cover for consultants you swap out cover elsewhere.

[Deleted User]

Dr Brown wrote:

Nobody is going to wait 3 years to see a consultant if there are other options.

Sadly there's plenty of people can't afford private & have to wait the 3 years

LirW

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Sadly there's plenty of people can't afford private & have to wait the 3 years

The kids come to my mind that are waiting years for scoliosis surgery because the parents cannot afford skipping the queue. The HSE price for a correction at the moment is somewhere between 30 and 50 grand.

steddyeddy

andekwarhola wrote: »

One where untouchable, byzantine levels of management, indentured to the public purse, are more important than the actual service.

Yep. Having worked in a hospital lab I can confirm this is the problem. Ask yourself how many people get fired in the HSE and there's your answer. There's lack of accountability and huge amounts of waste.

Avatar MIA

bluewolf wrote: »

I was thinking of this off the irish life health website:
In 2014 the Government changed the way public hospitals charge health insurers. Previously your health insurer was only charged a higher rate than that charged to the general public if you were accommodated in a semi-private or private room. Now, health insurance customers can be charged over 10 times the normal rate regardless of whether they received semi-private / private accommodation or not.

is it not true?
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/should-you-declare-as-a-private-patient-when-attending-a-public-hospital-1.2733187

This is true, and is why insurance companies ask patients not to declare they are insured if going to a public hospital - they'll get the same poor service in any case (sorry, couldn't help the dig). :pac: But, for an insurance company these costs are minor compared to what most people use private insurance for which is major/minor operations in private hospitals.

But, in the above I was comparing Insured versus private person paying themselves not insured versus public patient paid by the state to state hospitals. Then there is the state paying private hospitals but that's an entirely different situation and subject to tender (usually).

mark_jmc

davo2001 wrote: »

You get what you pay for i suppose.

This isn’t always the case. I have private health insurance. I was in hospital a few years ago for a couple of rounds of inpatient chemo. Each stay involved around 3 nights. Each time I was in a ward with 5 other guys- this didn’t bother me in the slightest, in fact I think having the company helped me through it.

What did bother me was when an admin person (every time I stayed) asked me to sign insurance forms that stated that I was in a private room, I didn’t sign.
Hospitals are using private health insurance to subsidize the inefficiency/ multiple layers of administration in the system
I should also say that the level of care I received from doctors & nurses was top notch

Avatar MIA

JellieBabie wrote: »

I dunno about that. I pay a lot for health insurance and if you get cover for consultants you swap out cover elsewhere.

It's not cheap, but you'd pay more if there was a relatively disaffected person (judge) or group were deciding what was to be charged for a particular operation.

GMSA

Theres scamming going on from all sides. My brother works in a semi state company which has its own medical fund for the employees and their families. Excellent cover. His son went into hospital for some minor surgery and stayed for 5 days.
A day after the surgery he had a high temp and was given 2 Panadol to help with this. 2 days later he again had a high temp and was given 2 Panadol again.
A few weeks later the bill for the treatment arrived- fully itemized down to the last detail. The 2 occasions with the 2 pain killers were billed as 2 full boxes. 4 tablets used but billed for 32 or what ever.
It's all a money racket.
Out patient visits being charged with fee for a bed even though patient stood in the hospital for 40 mins.
Yes plenty scamming going on alright.

Greentopia

Avatar MIA wrote: »

This is true, and is why insurance companies ask patients not to declare they are insured if going to a public hospital

So what are you supposed to say if you don't have a medical card in that case? that you will pay all costs out of pocket??

Greentopia

Looking at the average costs of private health insurance in Ireland I'd say it's not a bad deal.

Here in Germany my other half pays €370 per month private insurance as he's self employed and insurance is mandatory here. That's about average unless you're an OAP, unemployed or a student where you get cheaper rates.

If my fiancee didn't have to pay this much every month he would have the money to pay for dental work he currently can't afford that's not covered by his insurance :rolleyes:

Private health insurance is fine if you can afford it but the fact that many only pay it in Ireland because they're scared witless of ending up on trolleys and in long queues for appointments and treatment in the public system is very wrong.

Moving home in a few months and considering if I should go on the private system or not so this thread is interesting for me.

Avatar MIA

Greentopia wrote: »

So what are you supposed to say if you don't have a medical card in that case? that you will pay all costs out of pocket??

You presumably paid to see your GP and were referred to the Public hospital.

As it's a public hospital there is then no fee to the patient - they'll ask for your PPS number.

If you don't visit a GP and go straight to the A&E I think there's a fee of approx €100, but I think you get that refunded if you declare your insurance. So, the incentive there would be to give them your insurance details.

LirW

Here in Germany my other half pays €370 per month private insurance as he's self employed and insurance is mandatory here. That's about average unless you're an OAP, unemployed or a student where you get cheaper rates.

I did the books for a few years for a small company and I can say that self-employment and insurance is incredibly sore there and can't be compared with insurance people have when they're on PAYE.
My dad as self-employed paid 5000 Euro health insurance per quarter last year for his mandatory insurance.

It's an absolute hack over there when you're self-employed.

But that said, the hospitals there are managed differently and so much more efficiently, I'd choose a German hospital over an Irish one in a heartbeat. You also won't be waiting for your treatment for years.

The Rape of Lucretia

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Seems like an argument for Health Insurance rather than questioning its validity.

The vast majority of people with PHI end up dying. So OP could have a point I think.

mfceiling

We have family health insurance but there is something wrong about skipping a queue because you are perceived as having money, to make your treatment more important than someone who has been waiting months for the same thing.

Greentopia

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You presumably paid to see your GP and were referred to the Public hospital.

As it's a public hospital there is then no fee to the patient - they'll ask for your PPS number.

If you don't visit a GP and go straight to the A&E I think there's a fee of approx €100, but I think you get that refunded if you declare your insurance. So, the incentive there would be to give them your insurance details.

I see, thank's Avatar!

splinter65

Greentopia wrote: »

So what are you supposed to say if you don't have a medical card in that case? that you will pay all costs out of pocket??

The maximum cost to you of a stay in a public bed in any Rolling year is €800 (10 nights at €80 per night).
That covers every single thing. It doesn’t matter how many nights your admitted for or how many admissions you have or what treatment you get including all operations MRIs X-rays etc, it’s €800 in a Rolling year and you can set up a plan to pay that.

splinter65

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You presumably paid to see your GP and were referred to the Public hospital.

As it's a public hospital there is then no fee to the patient - they'll ask for your PPS number.

If you don't visit a GP and go straight to the A&E I think there's a fee of approx €100, but I think you get that refunded if you declare your insurance. So, the incentive there would be to give them your insurance details.

If you don’t have insurance or a medical card then there is a fee if you are admitted overnight . It’s €80 per night up to a maximum of 10 nights in a Rolling year.
That covers everything.

Katgurl

Avatar MIA wrote: »

That's not insurance. Insurance is against something that might happen, not what has already happened. Otherwise we'd all take out insurance once we became sick and would be right fools to pay for it before hand.

I wasn't disagreeing. I was highlighting this fact.

dr.fuzzenstein

splinter65 wrote: »

Why did you think that?

In his speech, Mr Pauls pointed out that junior ministers here earn more than the German Chancellor and that 20pc of the Irish population are public servants. He later referred to consultants' description of €200,000 jobs as "Mickey Mouse" money

https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/lost-in-translation-envoy-refuses-to-back-down-over-remarks-26318562.html

It's an old story at this stage. The German ambassador made reference to remarks by Irish hospital consultants who weren't happy with their salary.

Greentopia

LirW wrote: »

I did the books for a few years for a small company and I can say that self-employment and insurance is incredibly sore there and can't be compared with insurance people have when they're on PAYE.
My dad as self-employed paid 5000 Euro health insurance per quarter last year for his mandatory insurance.

It's an absolute hack over there when you're self-employed.

But that said, the hospitals there are managed differently and so much more efficiently, I'd choose a German hospital over an Irish one in a heartbeat. You also won't be waiting for your treatment for years.

Yeah my fiancee is not at all happy with what he gets for his money here because he has to pay out of pocket for some things that are not covered by his insurance (dental work is a major one), and neither am I. And it's the compulsion aspect I hate too. €5000? :eek: that's something else!

Yes you get seen by a specialist very quickly here, but then they usually spend as little time with you as possible because they get the same nominal amount for every patient they treat and may send you to another specialist in the hospital-this is what happened today to my step-daughter. I have a friend a GP here and he said they spend more time battling red tape and form filling than seeing patients.

Treatment times are way better though, true.

TBH taxes and insurance are one of the main reasons why I'm not staying here. I'm self employed too and by the time I pay everything there is little left at the end of the month. I feel like I'm only working to pay the Govt and insurance company and there is no way of reducing this or changing my circumstances to allow for a freer simpler way of living here (I won't go into all the myriad things they ban or obstacles they put in your way here that would allow you some kind of freedom to downshift or get out of the rat race).:rolleyes: Now I understand completely why so many Germans moved to Ireland even if the healthcare system there leaves a lot to be desired.

Sorry, rant over

Wanderer78

'rent extraction' from one of the most critical needs of all citizens! Go humans!

Greentopia

splinter65 wrote: »

The maximum cost to you of a stay in a public bed in any Rolling year is €800 (10 nights at €80 per night).
That covers every single thing. It doesn’t matter how many nights your admitted for or how many admissions you have or what treatment you get including all operations MRIs X-rays etc, it’s €800 in a Rolling year and you can set up a plan to pay that.

splinter65 wrote: »

If you don’t have insurance or a medical card then there is a fee if you are admitted overnight . It’s €80 per night up to a maximum of 10 nights in a Rolling year.
That covers everything.

Thank's for the info, yes I've been reading a bit about that. In fairness those costs are quite reasonable. It's hard to know what to do though, whether to pay for private or not as I'm fit and healthy (touch wood) with no underlying conditions and I never get ill. But am not getting any younger so will probably cough up for the private if I can afford it.
I hate the idea of queue jumping and the idea that having more money gets you better treatment and access but the sh1te public system forces people into it so what can you do??

Avatar MIA

splinter65 wrote: »

If you don’t have insurance or a medical card then there is a fee if you are admitted overnight . It’s €80 per night up to a maximum of 10 nights in a Rolling year.
That covers everything.

If you have insurance you can claim it back and therefore no cost to you.

The insurance company will gladly pay it.

The insurance companies sent out a letter to patients telling them what to do if asked if they have insurance and go to a public hospital so as to reduce their costs and ultimately the premiums they charge.

Avatar MIA

Greentopia wrote: »

I see, thank's Avatar!

Splinter 65 could very well be right about those that don't have a medical card or private insurance. I suspect he is, I didn't think of this cohort. The poor squeezed middle.

Avatar MIA

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The vast majority of people with PHI end up dying. So OP could have a point I think.

Not sure if serious, but pretty sure the one thing that those on PHI, medical card and uncovered have in common is that they all end up dying :P

Hoboo

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If you have insurance you can claim it back and therefore no cost to you.

The insurance company will gladly pay it.

The insurance companies sent out a letter to patients telling them what to do if asked if they have insurance and go to a public hospital so as to reduce their costs and ultimately the premiums they charge.

Which of course is BS. They just want to increase their profit margin. The hospitals charge over €800 per night if you have insurance, regardless of what bed you get. By all means get what you can before signing the form, but if the private bed's not there, then screw the insurance provider, they're already screwing you.

Avatar MIA

Hoboo wrote: »

Which of course is BS. They just want to increase their profit margin. The hospitals charge over €800 per night if you have insurance, regardless of what bed you get. By all means get what you can before signing the form, but if the private bed's not there, then screw the insurance provider, they're already screwing you.

That's amazing logic, the insurance company is going to aim for their target margin anyway. So, increased costs go to increased margin.

But, it can be considered as a relief to the state, so for that reason fire away, you can consider it extra tax (from increased premiums) if that gives you a warm glow.

n97 mini

I think there would be a lot less pressure on the health system for everyone if there was fixed fees for services like GPs. E.g. medical card or private, €10 a consultation. I know poorly paid people who don't have a medical card and neglect their health as €60 is a lot to fork out for them. Conversely I know people with medical cards who are the opposite and are off to their GP on a whim.

Hoboo

Avatar MIA wrote: »

That's amazing logic, the insurance company is going to aim for their target margin anyway. So, increased costs go to increased margin.

But, it can be considered as a relief to the state, so for that reason fire away, you can consider it extra tax (from increased premiums) if that gives you a warm glow.

Of course they'll aim for their target margin, and hit it regardless of customers filling in the form, do you think they'll decrease rather than increase their target margin because customers don't sign the form? No chance. They'll increase at every opportunity regardless of cost. They'll still hit their target margins year on year, they're not relying on overnight stay rates to do so.