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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Experience_day

JDD wrote: »

No. I was very careful with that. Every time I mentioned child in my post, it was in reference to a born child. I knew someone would jump on that, so I was very careful. It wasn't gymnastics, it was an accurate description of my beliefs.

Okay, humour me so. At what point would you consider it a child? Just in your opinion, when exactly do your foetus become a child? When exactly did it in your eyes gain the status of being "protected"? Not generalities, the specific of when you personally believe the foetus becomes a child?

[Deleted User]

Percy Judd wrote: »

If you want a load of pro-choice people posting and slapping each other on the back about how 'right on' they are for their pro-abortion views then why not just ban anyone with a pro-life opinion from the website?
I could equally refer to pro-abortion posters as 'tedious' but would prefer not to stoop to such lows.

id like to second the excellent suggestion of banning pro-life opinion from the site tbh

particularly the content/compassion free "go back to the start everyone owes me an explanation" type like our man percy

[Deleted User]

Experience_day wrote: »

Okay, humour me so. At what point would you consider it a child? Just in your opinion, when exactly do your foetus become a child? When exactly did it in your eyes gain the status of being "protected"? Not generalities, the specific of when you personally believe the foetus becomes a child?

a few possible answers

- a long way after 12 weeks
- once it passes a threshold of viability
- once it is born
- none of your business

all correct for the purpose of the discussion

Experience_day

[Deleted User] wrote: »

a few possible answers

- a long way after 12 weeks
- once it passes a threshold of viability
- once it is born
- none of your business

all correct for the purpose of the discussion

Don't remember asking your opinion....also if you're going to debate at least take part. Throwing stupid answers like that doesn't help any discourse.

[Deleted User]

youre on a message board toots man up

swampgas

Martina1991 wrote: »

You're looking so hard at the uterus, you can't see the human being attached to it.

This +1000.

Why are so many people so hostile to women who find themselves with a pregnancy they don't want? A foetus of a few weeks that might not make it to term is somehow more important than the woman who is carrying it.

Anti-abortion people always talk about "the baby" as if it was a bouncing 2-year old toddler and never give a moment's thought to the living, breathing, thinking, feeling woman (or girl) who is carrying it.

Sweetemotion

January wrote: »

Have I? I'm absolutely delighted to hear that.

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier I was on my way work.

Just when I read your comment today something clicked in my head and suddenly realized, how can I be against something that will help women in these situations and maybe let them keep the last bit of dignity they may left.

People will probably think I'm just trolling but I just want you to know you have turned a no vote to a yes and I honestly feel ashamed of my stupid posts on this thread.

[Deleted User]

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.
First it will be used by those who fall into the 0.1% - 1% of statistics where proper use of contraception has failed.
As the number of abortions grows, after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different.
Then eventually we will become like England, where contraception is not given as much consideration and women don't worry about becoming pregnant as much knowing they can just abort if they don't want to keep the baby.

I grew up in England too, & I don't know what you are talking about.
Oh, & I know at 5 Irish women who have had abortions, that's just the ones that feel able to admit to. I only know one English woman who had one.
Doesn't prove anything obviously, but that's just my experience.

Ave Sodalis

Experience_day wrote: »

Okay, humour me so. At what point would you consider it a child? Just in your opinion, when exactly do your foetus become a child? When exactly did it in your eyes gain the status of being "protected"? Not generalities, the specific of when you personally believe the foetus becomes a child?

Scientifically and medically, the foetus becomes a child when it's born... whether or not a foetus should become protected to the same level as the mother at a certain point during the pregnancy is a matter of opinion. However, a foetus literally becomes a child by definition once born.

nice_guy80

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Scientifically and medically, the foetus becomes a child when it's born... whether or not a foetus should become protected to the same level as the mother at a certain point during the pregnancy is a matter of opinion. However, a foetus literally becomes a child by definition once born.

legally in Ireland too
thank you Supreme Court

Edward M

Just seen this, anyone know anything else about it?
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/decision-on-allowing-northern-ireland-abortion-referendum-vote-to-be-made-next-month-36701408.html

[Deleted User]

Edward M wrote: »

Just seen this, anyone know anything else about it?
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/decision-on-allowing-northern-ireland-abortion-referendum-vote-to-be-made-next-month-36701408.html

first ive heard of it and last attention ill pay to it

jesus why do these issues bring out the crazies

gandalf

Anti Choice out canvassing in our area tonight. Have they shot their load too early.....

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

January

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I think so. They will have spent all that American money by the time the date is announced. Pro choice are playing a blinder by staying quiet and saving their money until the time comes.

Pro choice groups have started to canvas over the last couple of weeks. Our local group will have its first canvas on Monday.

BattleHardened

January wrote: »

Pro choice groups have started to canvas over the last couple of weeks. Our local group will have its first canvas on Monday.

Where are ye canvassing? What parts of dublin are most likely to be receptive to the pro-repeal side rather than anti-repeal?

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I would have thought the more educated a person was, the more likely they are to be pro-repeal. Even if this is because universities tend to be more liberal settings and so liberal values tend to rub off on the students. So i'm surprised to see it is the poorer working class areas that are receptive to pro-repeal rather than the more affluent areas of dublin.

Ajsoprano

Word around my job seems to be allow the woman to abort the baby in fetal fatal situations and not for lifestyle reasons.

One lad thinks we should allow the man to abort the baby, he has his arguements I could never see a politician backing his views though.

It’s a good mix of average Irish people. All sorts. I think the problem with internet or college warriors is they think the whole world sees things the way they do.

Half the twitter people won’t even vote unless it’s to take a picture of themselves voting.

Nobody seems to be taking the old vote into consideration anymore because they arnt on Twitter. They vote like no other crowd. It could come down to the weather or whether there is a pop concert on that day.

I’m rambling now.....

PhoenixParker

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Word around my job seems to be allow the woman to abort the baby in fetal fatal situations and not for lifestyle reasons.

One lad thinks we should allow the man to abort the baby, he has his arguements I could never see a politician backing his views though.

It’s a good mix of average Irish people. All sorts. I think the problem with internet or college warriors is they think the whole world sees things the way they do.

Half the twitter people won’t even vote unless it’s to take a picture of themselves voting.

Nobody seems to be taking the old vote into consideration anymore because they arnt on Twitter. They vote like no other crowd. It could come down to the weather or whether there is a pop concert on that day.

I’m rambling now.....

Lifestyle reasons, jaysus that gets my back up, as though the difference between having a child and not having a child boils down to whether you prefer to go hiking or go to the pub.

Having a child affects every single aspect of a woman’s life. It also affects the lives of her immediate family and often her extended family too. It’s not some tiny f*ing “lifestyle” change not worthy of accommodation or consideration, it’s one of the single biggest events in any mothers life.

To describe, for instance, a single mother struggling to get services for an autistic child while holding down a job as choosing a lifestyle abortion is one of the most insulting odious statements possible.

The sitting in judgement of deserving vs undeserving women . . . Ugh

splinter65

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Lifestyle reasons, jaysus that gets my back up, as though the difference between having a child and not having a child boils down to whether you prefer to go hiking or go to the pub.

Having a child affects every single aspect of a woman’s life. It also affects the lives of her immediate family and often her extended family too. It’s not some tiny f*ing “lifestyle” change not worthy of accommodation or consideration, it’s one of the single biggest events in any mothers life.

To describe, for instance, a single mother struggling to get services for an autistic child while holding down a job as choosing a lifestyle abortion is one of the most insulting odious statements possible.

The sitting in judgement of deserving vs undeserving women . . . Ugh

Are you suggesting that no woman ever had an abortion because being pregnant was inconvenient for her?

PhoenixParker

splinter65 wrote: »

Are you suggesting that no woman ever had an abortion because being pregnant was inconvenient for her?

I'm suggesting that to describe pregnancy as merely "inconvient" is a gross and disgusting misrepresentation of how much a pregnancy affects a woman's life.

An inconvience is your bus being late.

splinter65

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I'm suggesting that to describe pregnancy as merely "inconvient" is a gross and disgusting misrepresentation of how much a pregnancy affects a woman's life.

An inconvience is your bus being late.

Pretending that women don’t decide to have an abortion when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant at a time when they didn’t plan to be is ridiculous.
It happens all the time.
I know lots of women who have had abortions and thought no more about it.
There is not always weeks of agonizing and grief and contemplation.
I don’t judge people but I don’t think you have a very well rounded view of parenthood. It seems to be very negative and fraught with anxiety with very little upside.
If it was as awful as you seem to think it is then no one would ever have a second baby, yet people still have 5 and 6.

Ajsoprano

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I'm suggesting that to describe pregnancy as merely "inconvient" is a gross and disgusting misrepresentation of how much a pregnancy affects a woman's life.

An inconvience is your bus being late.

When you called me odious I got angry and started writing a flippant post about how the poor women have to all live under the bridge because somebody’s family got pregnant like your other post suggested.
I’m doing this new thing where I count to ten before I hit post. It’s working a treat.

It’s either a lifestyle choice to not use birth control when it’s available on the medical card or the morning after pill or else it’s a lifestyle choice to have an abortion because you want to go to college.

To call that odious just tells me that you are trying to exaggerate women’s problems in 2018 Ireland. It’s not Cambodia, it’s not 1741.

As far as most people are concerned it’s
Option a no abortion
Option b fatal fetal
Option c lifestyle abortion

Missing out on an arts degree because you were too hungover to get the morning after pill isn’t really a human rights struggle now is it?

PhoenixParker

Ajsoprano wrote: »

When you called me odious I got angry and started writing a flippant post about how the poor women have to all live under the bridge because somebody’s family got pregnant like your other post suggested.
I’m doing this new thing where I count to ten before I hit post. It’s working a treat.

It’s either a lifestyle choice to not use birth control when it’s available on the medical card or the morning after pill or else it’s a lifestyle choice to have an abortion because you want to go to college.

To call that odious just tells me that you are trying to exaggerate women’s problems in 2018 Ireland. It’s not Cambodia, it’s not 1741.

As far as most people are concerned it’s
Option a no abortion
Option b fatal fetal
Option c lifestyle abortion

Missing out on an arts degree because you were too hungover to get the morning after pill isn’t really a human rights struggle now is it?

It abso****inglutely is a human rights struggle.
That women should be punished for the rest of their lives because of a single bad decision.

Oh you smoked, no cancer treatment.
Oh you Jay walked, here are some crutches because were not resetting your leg.
Oh you forgot to use a condom, here's a child you don't want.

I didn't call you odious, you said your co-worker talked about lifestyle abortions not you, but if it's you I suggest you really really think about the inherent misogyny in those views.

RobertKK

It is two lives, the mother with another life in her womb.
People see the woman, some don't see the life in the womb and view the unborn which is alive as potential waste rather than being a life in his or her own right.

It would be good if the government put as much effort into fixing the health system as they are into repeal the 8th.
They expect doctors to become abortionists when 66% or so say they will not, Some saying they became doctors to save lives, not take it.

Ajsoprano

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It abso****inglutely is a human rights struggle.
That women should be punished for the rest of their lives because of a single bad decision.

Oh you smoked, no cancer treatment.
Oh you Jay walked, here are some crutches because were not resetting your leg.
Oh you forgot to use a condom, here's a child you don't want.

I didn't call you odious, you said your co-worker talked about lifestyle abortions not you, but if it's you I suggest you really really think about the inherent misogyny in those views.

Or oh your mother doesn’t want you no maternity treatment.

Ave Sodalis

splinter65 wrote: »

Pretending that women don’t decide to have an abortion when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant at a time when they didn’t plan to be is ridiculous.
It happens all the time.
I know lots of women who have had abortions and thought no more about it.
There is not always weeks of agonizing and grief and contemplation.
I don’t judge people but I don’t think you have a very well rounded view of parenthood. It seems to be very negative and fraught with anxiety with very little upside.
If it was as awful as you seem to think it is then no one would ever have a second baby, yet people still have 5 and 6.

Not only does the post show a large amount of ignorance towards the reasons people have abortions, it also shows a massive amount of ignorance towards the thought processes behind it.

If I fell pregnant in the near future, I will be having an abortion for some very valid reasons. It is something I've already thought about and planned for so I don't need to make a quick decision if it does happen. I'm doing all I can to prevent it from happening but I'm not ignorant enough to think there's no risk at all. Therefore, I'm planning for that risk. It would be the right decision for me, so why would I think any more on it? There's not always weeks of grief because some people already know what they would do.

Not everyone has an abortion because they don't want to be parents. I'd highly recommend reading some of the stories on the Facebook page "In Her Shoes"

Call me Al

splinter65 wrote: »

Pretending that women don’t decide to have an abortion when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant at a time when they didn’t plan to be is ridiculous.
It happens all the time.
I know lots of women who have had abortions and thought no more about it.
There is not always weeks of agonizing and grief and contemplation.
I don’t judge people but I don’t think you have a very well rounded view of parenthood. It seems to be very negative and fraught with anxiety with very little upside.
If it was as awful as you seem to think it is then no one would ever have a second baby, yet people still have 5 and 6.

You say you know lots of women who have had an abortion and thought nothing of it.
How can you possibly know LOTS of women in this situation? Lots who have discussed this with you, an openly anti-repeal supporter? How many do you consider "lots"?
I am heading towards 50 years on this earth of ours, and know and have met lots of women over the years. I know a few women who have had abortions. None of them, when they chose to discuss their thought process and choice with me, made the decision lightly or dismissively.
Where are these LOTS OF WOMEN you have encountered?

splinter65

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Not only does the post show a large amount of ignorance towards the reasons people have abortions, it also shows a massive amount of ignorance towards the thought processes behind it.

If I fell pregnant in the near future, I will be having an abortion for some very valid reasons. It is something I've already thought about and planned for so I don't need to make a quick decision if it does happen. I'm doing all I can to prevent it from happening but I'm not ignorant enough to think there's no risk at all. Therefore, I'm planning for that risk. It would be the right decision for me, so why would I think any more on it? There's not always weeks of grief because some people already know what they would do.

Not everyone has an abortion because they don't want to be parents. I'd highly recommend reading some of the stories on the Facebook page "In Her Shoes"

I live in the real world. People have abortions because they have been told that the baby they are having is disabled or will not survive outside the womb.
They have abortions because they thought their family was complete and didn’t intend to start again.
They have abortions because either their contraception failed or they didn’t use contraception.
They have abortions because they don’t want to be pregnant.
Some women have abortions because it has been made clear to them that they will have no support.
Some women have more than 1 abortion.
There’s a trend on amongst the pro repeal advocates to push the idea that every abortion is agonized over and only happens after much heart searching.
What absolute nonsense.
It’s just a bunch of cells. A non sentient clump with no brain and no rights.
There’s no need for any agonizing.

NuMarvel

Edward M wrote: »

Just seen this, anyone know anything else about it?
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/decision-on-allowing-northern-ireland-abortion-referendum-vote-to-be-made-next-month-36701408.html

I know they've a snowball's chance in hell, because to be able register to vote in a referendum you have to ordinarily resident in a Dáil constituency, i.e. within the State. Citizens living outside the State, including Northern Ireland, aren't eligible on that basis.

I notice that the article didn't specify who sought the application for a judicial review, just the solicitors who lodged it. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a pro life group trying to delay the referendum.

Ajsoprano

Call me Al wrote: »

You say you kniw lots of women who have had an abortion and thought nothing of it.
How can you possibly know LOTS of women in thus situation? Lots who have discussed this with you, an openly anti-repeal supporter? How many do consider "lots"?
I am heading towards 50 years on this earth of ours, and know and have met lots of women over the years. I know a few women who have had abortions. None of them, when they chose to discuss their thought process and choice with me, made the decision lightly or dismissively.
Where are these LOTS OF WOMEN you have encountered?

I know a fair few women who have had miscarriages and for them the thought that people say 11 week old babies are just an unimportant blob of cells sickens them.
I know a fair few gay people who would love to adopt and the thoughts that people would rather babies were aborted rather than gay adoption given more attention sickens them.

It’s a mad referendum all together really.