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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Edward M

Just seen this, anyone know anything else about it?
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/decision-on-allowing-northern-ireland-abortion-referendum-vote-to-be-made-next-month-36701408.html

nice_guy80

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Scientifically and medically, the foetus becomes a child when it's born... whether or not a foetus should become protected to the same level as the mother at a certain point during the pregnancy is a matter of opinion. However, a foetus literally becomes a child by definition once born.

legally in Ireland too
thank you Supreme Court

Ave Sodalis

Experience_day wrote: »

Okay, humour me so. At what point would you consider it a child? Just in your opinion, when exactly do your foetus become a child? When exactly did it in your eyes gain the status of being "protected"? Not generalities, the specific of when you personally believe the foetus becomes a child?

Scientifically and medically, the foetus becomes a child when it's born... whether or not a foetus should become protected to the same level as the mother at a certain point during the pregnancy is a matter of opinion. However, a foetus literally becomes a child by definition once born.

[Deleted User]

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.
First it will be used by those who fall into the 0.1% - 1% of statistics where proper use of contraception has failed.
As the number of abortions grows, after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different.
Then eventually we will become like England, where contraception is not given as much consideration and women don't worry about becoming pregnant as much knowing they can just abort if they don't want to keep the baby.

I grew up in England too, & I don't know what you are talking about.
Oh, & I know at 5 Irish women who have had abortions, that's just the ones that feel able to admit to. I only know one English woman who had one.
Doesn't prove anything obviously, but that's just my experience.

Sweetemotion

January wrote: »

Have I? I'm absolutely delighted to hear that.

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier I was on my way work.

Just when I read your comment today something clicked in my head and suddenly realized, how can I be against something that will help women in these situations and maybe let them keep the last bit of dignity they may left.

People will probably think I'm just trolling but I just want you to know you have turned a no vote to a yes and I honestly feel ashamed of my stupid posts on this thread.

swampgas

Martina1991 wrote: »

You're looking so hard at the uterus, you can't see the human being attached to it.

This +1000.

Why are so many people so hostile to women who find themselves with a pregnancy they don't want? A foetus of a few weeks that might not make it to term is somehow more important than the woman who is carrying it.

Anti-abortion people always talk about "the baby" as if it was a bouncing 2-year old toddler and never give a moment's thought to the living, breathing, thinking, feeling woman (or girl) who is carrying it.

[Deleted User]

youre on a message board toots man up

Experience_day

[Deleted User] wrote: »

a few possible answers

- a long way after 12 weeks
- once it passes a threshold of viability
- once it is born
- none of your business

all correct for the purpose of the discussion

Don't remember asking your opinion....also if you're going to debate at least take part. Throwing stupid answers like that doesn't help any discourse.

[Deleted User]

Experience_day wrote: »

Okay, humour me so. At what point would you consider it a child? Just in your opinion, when exactly do your foetus become a child? When exactly did it in your eyes gain the status of being "protected"? Not generalities, the specific of when you personally believe the foetus becomes a child?

a few possible answers

- a long way after 12 weeks
- once it passes a threshold of viability
- once it is born
- none of your business

all correct for the purpose of the discussion

[Deleted User]

Percy Judd wrote: »

If you want a load of pro-choice people posting and slapping each other on the back about how 'right on' they are for their pro-abortion views then why not just ban anyone with a pro-life opinion from the website?
I could equally refer to pro-abortion posters as 'tedious' but would prefer not to stoop to such lows.

id like to second the excellent suggestion of banning pro-life opinion from the site tbh

particularly the content/compassion free "go back to the start everyone owes me an explanation" type like our man percy

Experience_day

JDD wrote: »

No. I was very careful with that. Every time I mentioned child in my post, it was in reference to a born child. I knew someone would jump on that, so I was very careful. It wasn't gymnastics, it was an accurate description of my beliefs.

Okay, humour me so. At what point would you consider it a child? Just in your opinion, when exactly do your foetus become a child? When exactly did it in your eyes gain the status of being "protected"? Not generalities, the specific of when you personally believe the foetus becomes a child?

amdublin

Percy Judd wrote: »

No it doesn't. It shows how careless English women are about not using contraception and getting pregnant knowing they can easily abort if they decide to have unprotected sex and become pregnant.

"Easily" abort.

Easily!!!! There's nothing easy about abortion

The emotion aside, Its not like taking a couple of headaches pills. Even a medical abortion is not easy, it's varies from feeling like an extremely bad period to labour like pains over the course of time.

Have you ever had an extremely bad period? There's nothing easy about it.

And then there's the actual expelling passing of the embryo/blood/clots.

The bleeding can last from days (over a week) to months.

There is nothing easy about it.

gctest50

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
.....

Percy Judd wrote: »

having abortion freely available causes.
.....

Any source for that ?

Zerbini Blewitt

Another example of pro-life denying the reality of their stance:-

Niamh Smyth TD, FF on The Tonight Show last Thursday while defending keeping the 8th – in a reply to Matt Cooper said “I’m not saying that the women’s choice should be taken from them at <stopped mid-sentence>”.

People are entitled to their views regardless of their inability to back them up with reason or to engage at even the most rudimentary level of discussion.

But if one supports keeping the 8th then that is denying choice to women.

Is she embarrassed that she supports denying choice so her innovative solution to this is just to lie and say “I’m not denying choice”.

Imagine having to debase & degrade oneself like that on live television.

Martina1991

Percy Judd wrote:

So that's how we're defining human life now, whether it can survive on it's own or not?

When it's depending on another human being for life yes.

Why do you think a foetus trumps the life of the woman?

.......

This post has been deleted.

SusieBlue

Percy Judd wrote: »

Not when it comes to taking what I consider a human life, no.

Not everyone agrees. I don't believe pre 12 weeks constitutes to taking a life, at least not in the way you believe it to be.
Why should I live my life restricted by your morals and principles? Why are your opinions and feelings superior to mine?

Percy Judd

gctest50 wrote: »

And do you not trust a woman along with her chosen doctor to make the right choice ?

Not when it comes to taking what I consider a human life, no.

SusieBlue

Percy Judd wrote: »

A choice to abort, yes.
Stop trying to hide behind terms like 'pro-choice'. It's not pro-choice of whether to get your haircut today or tomorrow, it's pro-choice of having the option to terminate a pregnancy. Nothing else.

You just contradicted yourself there. A choice to abort, yes. Not a forced abortion. Or a coerced abortion. A voluntary one, should she want it.

gctest50

Percy Judd wrote: »

........ it's pro-choice of having the option to terminate a pregnancy. Nothing else.

And do you not trust a woman along with her chosen doctor to make the right choice ?

Sofiztikated

Percy Judd wrote: »

it's pro-choice of having the option to terminate a pregnancy. Nothing else.

Well done.

I thought it was a referendum on choice of toothpaste.

SusieBlue

Percy Judd wrote: »

You only mentioned sentience so that's what I argued with.
Again, respiration - if someone needs a respirator machine to breathe, are they not human?
If someone has no insight or personality due to mental disorders, are they not human?
These are very weak arguments to be honest.

No, your rebuttals are whats weak. Of course they're still human. You are equating the value of a mentally ill person to that of a 12 week old fetus. This simply isn't the case.
Living people (regardless of their physical/mental condition) are more important than potential people. Its really that simple.

You asked when it becomes human, I said when it develops human traits. Its not rocket science.

Would you be happy for your wife or daughter to die for the sake of a less than 12 week old pregnancy? If not, why are you asking other people to do it?

Ave Sodalis

Percy Judd wrote: »

You only mentioned sentience so that's what I argued with.
Again, respiration - if someone needs a respirator machine to breathe, are they not human?
If someone has no insight or personality due to mental disorders, are they not human?
These are very weak arguments to be honest.

This could not be more of a strawman if you tried...

Percy Judd wrote: »

A choice to abort, yes.
Stop trying to hide behind terms like 'pro-choice'. It's not pro-choice of whether to get your haircut today or tomorrow, it's pro-choice of having the choice to terminate a pregnancy.

It's pro-choice when it allows the woman to decide what's best for her. You see, pro-choice does not really mind whether or not a woman continues with a pregnancy, as long as she's healthy because that's what choice is. If it were pro-abortion, there would be people out trying to force abortions. The pro-choice is about allowing the woman to choose. What would you call it?

Percy Judd

Martina1991 wrote: »

Well it is a fact that a 12 week foetus cannot survive on its own.

So that's how we're defining human life now, whether it can survive on it's own or not?

Martina1991

Loafing Oaf wrote:

I believe this is ultimately a subjective ethical judgement rather than a scientific fact. If the pro-lifer decides that a new 'human life' comes into existence at the point of fertilisation, I don't believe that position can be refuted by science.

Well it is a fact that a 12 week foetus cannot survive on its own.

I believe it should not have the same rights as a living breathing human being who that is forced to carry a child against their will.

Percy Judd

WhiteRoses wrote: »

A choice in making the best decision they possibly can in their own unique circumstances. If it ends in abortion, so be it. I trust and support women.

A choice to abort, yes.
Stop trying to hide behind terms like 'pro-choice'. It's not pro-choice of whether to get your haircut today or tomorrow, it's pro-choice of having the option to terminate a pregnancy. Nothing else.

Percy Judd

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No, no, no, no, and no. You asked when I consider it human, I said when it develops human traits such as sentience. There are many other human traits (such as respiration, personality, insight). Sentience is one of the FIRST to develop which is why I mentioned it.

You only mentioned sentience so that's what I argued with.
Again, respiration - if someone needs a respirator machine to breathe, are they not human?
If someone has no insight or personality due to mental disorders, are they not human?
These are very weak arguments to be honest.

Loafing Oaf

Martina1991 wrote: »

A 12 week foetus cannot survive outside the womb. It depends on the woman's body. It is not a human life at that stage. .

I believe this is ultimately a subjective ethical judgement rather than a scientific fact. If the pro-lifer decides that a new 'human life' comes into existence at the point of fertilisation, I don't believe that position can be refuted by science.

SusieBlue

Percy Judd wrote: »

Choice to what?

A choice in making the best decision they possibly can in their own unique circumstances. If it ends in abortion, so be it. I trust and support women.

SusieBlue

Percy Judd wrote: »

sentient

1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.

2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.

So if that's what defines a 'separate human being' to you, should we legalize killing of unconsciousness people? Comatose patients? People with brain damage who dip in and out of consciousness? Like the unborn they have potential for consciousness in the future. Can we kill them too?

No, no, no, no, and no. You asked when I consider it human, I said when it develops human traits such as sentience. There are many other human traits (such as respiration, personality, insight). Sentience is one of the FIRST to develop which is why I mentioned it.
We're talking about aborting unborn fetuses here, not giving grown adults the lethal injection. Presumably someone in a coma would have other human traits besides sentience, not that it matters, because its absolutely nothing to do with abortion.
Nice try with the deflecting, though.