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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Fred Swanson

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Percy Judd

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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So is it OK in your eyes to kill a baby 2 days before the women goes into full-term labor? Birth is just some arbitrary reference point. You know full well it's a human being at that stage. If that were the case, babies born prematurely at 8 months are not human and should be put in the zoo or something, according to your logic.

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uptherebels

Percy Judd wrote: »

Because I disagree with abortion I should just leave the discussion?
That's the general consensus around here.
Pro-life posters are ganged up on, shouted down and told to leave because they disagree with the heavily pro-abortion contingent on this website.
Ironic that the people opposed to killing the unborn are seen as the evil ones. What a sad reflection on modern society.

relax percy no one has asked you to leave.
Anti choice posters are not ganged up on, when you are in the minority position you will always be outnumbered.
Also you are not shouted down, this is a discussion board, you will get multiple responses to your posts.

ohnonotgmail

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we are well past that stage

SusieBlue

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Can we add "just put them up for adoption" and "people will want to be euthanising newborns next" to that sticky, too! :rolleyes:

Percy Judd

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Because Fred Swanson just said we should only care about humans from when they are born onwards. It's just a few posts up.

SusieBlue

Percy Judd wrote: »

Because Fred Swanson just said we should only care about humans from when they are born onwards. It's just a few posts up.

He said nothing about aborting them at that gestation though?

Percy Judd

WhiteRoses wrote: »

He said nothing about aborting them at that gestation though?

In response to my post:
At what point do we 'care' about humans then?

He said:
When it is born!

Implying we should not care about humans before they are born. 2 days before birth means you have not been born yet.

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gctest50

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England and have seen the change in attitude between here and there that having abortion freely available causes.
It will happen slowly in Ireland too when the 8th is repealed.
First it will be used by those who fall into the 0.1% - 1% of statistics where proper use of contraception has failed.
As the number of abortions grows, after a few years everyone will know someone who had an abortion and it becomes more normal and accepted. The next generation of children will grow up knowing no different.
Then eventually we will become like England, where contraception is not given as much consideration and women don't worry about becoming pregnant as much knowing they can just abort if they don't want to keep the baby.

Percy Judd wrote: »

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Then eventually we will become like England,.

Percy Judd wrote: »

I grew up in England

Now you are here, you want it all to be leprechauns and maidens dancing at crossroads ?

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Percy Judd

I think I have caught you lot out on this point.
I have posted what stage of development a 12-week fetus is at regarding heartbeat, responding to stimulus, hands, feet, arms, legs, brain synapses, etc.
And yet you can't be straight and say you don't consider that a human life.
BUT you can't tell me at what stage of development the pregnancy becomes a human life.
Even Fred Swanson implying we shouldn't care about the life growing inside a woman, until childbirth occurs.

Grayson

Percy Judd wrote: »

To me that's a tiny human being and most certainly a person.

Then tell us why. The crux of an argument about abortion always revolves around this and it's rarely explained.

To me what makes a person, a human being is their mind. You can move and replace any organ and it's the same person, it's their mind that makes them human. Until that exists there's no human being present. There's no actual person there.

Conversely if a person is in an accident and is brain dead, but the rest of their body is alive, we consider them to be dead. It's the mind, not the body that makes a person.

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PhoenixParker

Percy Judd wrote: »

At what point do we 'care' about humans then?
What stage of mental or cognitive development?
What stage of physical development?

At exactly the same point we do for all other humans, when it's capable of surviving without it's own personal human life support machine.

Just because you can't live without my kidney doesn't entitle you or the government to force me to donate it to you.

Just because a fetus can't live outside my womb doesn't entitle the fetus or the government to force to continue to allow it to reside there.

Sfc 1895

WhiteRoses wrote: »

4k Irish women procure abortions every single year.
Ireland is by no means an abortion free country. Irish women are having them, just not in Ireland.
I already know a few people who have had them. I imagine most people know someone who has had one. You have no grip on reality at all.

Just wondering if you feel the same about Heroin? Thousands of people take unsafe stuff every day yet we do not legalise it . I imagine a lot of people know somebody who is affected.
I actually support repealing the 8th however the above argument of "everybody's doing it so let's legalise" does not hold weight

Percy Judd

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If you want a load of pro-choice people posting and slapping each other on the back about how 'right on' they are for their pro-abortion views then why not just ban anyone with a pro-life opinion from the website?
I could equally refer to pro-abortion posters as 'tedious' but would prefer not to stoop to such lows.

Percy Judd

gctest50 wrote: »

Now you are here, you want it all to be leprechauns and maidens dancing at crossroads ?

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I have an Irish passport. No need for sarcastic comments.

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Percy Judd

PhoenixParker wrote: »

At exactly the same point we do for all other humans, when it's capable of surviving without it's own personal human life support machine.

So should we turn comatose patients life support off? There are lots of human lives which cannot survive without support. How is that a justification for killing them?

NuMarvel

Percy Judd wrote: »

I think I have caught you lot out on this point.

Yeah, well done newly registered poster of 34 posts. You've managed to catch us all out, even those of us who have been discussing this matter long before you rocked up and have responded to questions like these before.

You totally win the Internet today dude. :rolleyes:

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SusieBlue

Percy Judd wrote: »

I think I have caught you lot out on this point.
I have posted what stage of development a 12-week fetus is at regarding heartbeat, responding to stimulus, hands, feet, arms, legs, brain synapses, etc.
And yet you can't be straight and say you don't consider that a human life.
BUT you can't tell me at what stage of development the pregnancy becomes a human life.

I'll bite.
A 12 week old fetus is most definitely biologically human. However, at that gestation, it doesn't really have any human attributes. It cannot survive on its own outside the womb. It depends on its host wholly to survive and thrive.

Sentience is developed by the fetus some time between week 18 and 22.
It is at that point that I see it as a separate human being and deserving of its own human rights.
Up until that point, the woman's needs and wants and rights outweigh that of the unborn.

The woman carrying the child is more important than the perspective person a fetus will become after 40 weeks gestation. She is living, breathing, and here. So her rights win.

And also, you haven't "caught out" or proven anything - people are slow to respond because you're about the 30th pro-lifer to offer up this nugget of genius only for them to end up completely wrong on the matter.

Percy Judd

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Just because you favour abortion and disagree with the pro-life side doesn't automatically imply their arguments are not informed.

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

You are falling into your own trap of conformation bias. Just because you had an experience does not mean that it as true for all Irish emigrants of the 1980's.

According to CSO figures 206,000 people left Ireland during the 80's. The vast vast majority of these for economic reasons.

Again, I said social reasons may have contributed but to argue that the majority of emigration was caused by social issues flies in the face of established facts.

Given that I very clearly wrote about my personal experience not the wider Irish experience, never once said it was the majority of Irish people but it was the majority of the Irish people I knew, specifically clarified that it was the Gaymen, Lesbians, and Lefties - how about you pull your horns in, accept that I know among whom I lived and worked, and move on?

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NuMarvel

Sfc 1895 wrote: »

Just wondering if you feel the same about Heroin? Thousands of people take unsafe stuff every day yet we do not legalise it . I imagine a lot of people know somebody who is affected.
I actually support repealing the 8th however the above argument of "everybody's doing it so let's legalise" does not hold weight

There's political and public support for the criminilisation of the selling of hard drugs.

There's absolutely no support for the criminilisation of women who have abortions, abroad or here. So why keep a law that isn't used and nobody wants to use?