amdublin wrote: » Choice is good Edward M. If a woman wants to continue her pregnancy (for wahtever reason) then great, if she doesnt (for whatever reason) fine. Abortion happens every day for Irish women - abroad in the UK or taking pills in unsafe circumstance (not under medical care or advice) Abortion is a personal decision for each person to make themselves. Let's end this farce and way of treating women once and for all.
amdublin wrote: » In 1985 (dublin) my aunt went home and told her parents (my grandparents) she was pregnant. First she was asked when's the wedding. Second she was driven down to the church to meet with the parish priest. *This isn't about abortion. Just an illustration of the Ireland not too long back Edit. Ps. My aunt went on to not marry the father, and have my cousin. With a lot of support from.siblings. My grandparents finally came round to the little baby.
Edward M wrote: » Aborting babies doesent end intolerance.
Edward M wrote: » I know plenty single mothers, I don't know one I've ever heard of being ostracised, punished or made leave where she is from because of it.
Edward M wrote: » But why, I mean where did they come from? I had a child with my first partner in the 80s, in rural Cavan, we lived together for 4 years after the child was born, we had no problems or our daughter either. I really would like to know where in this wasn't possible at that time?
markodaly wrote: » We amended the Constitution to get rid of capital punishment, did we not? See Criminal law. Most of our human rights legalisation has been imported from the EU, we have had no say in it.
markodaly wrote: » Em, yes we did.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
ohnonotgmail wrote: » i stand corrected.
Edward M wrote: » Perhaps I worked there for two years, I found parts of London very racist, intolerant and indeed troublesome for Irish immigrants. Racism was rife in it in my experience.
Edward M wrote: » But that's intolerance, that still exists, abortion won't change that.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » That is one of those "Check your privilege at the door" things I am afraid. Many people can not simply travel when it comes to abortion. They can not afford the time, the time off work, the money, the loss of earnings, or much more. Many people already have children they can not simply leave. And many people do not want to face such a journey alone, or an abortion alone, and so want.... nay need.... to take someone with them. Which doubles all the issues I list above. Further those people who seek an abortion for other reasons during an otherwise wanted pregnancy, often find those reasons preclude ease of travel. If there is a medical issue for example the last thing one wants, and often the last think one is capable of, is travel. Worse, if there are any complications from the abortion the woman in question might be en route back to Ireland and therefore in no position to seek medical advice. Or they might BE back in Ireland when the complications occur.... and have to go to a doctor who knows nothing of the medical history and events involved. Perhaps you simply popped over to London or something sometime in your life for a concert or some such. I know I did many times, especially in college when I saw 9 david gray gigs in 7 days around the entire UK for example. But I know my privilege and I know it does not compare to the hardships of others. And just because a jaunt to london is simple for me, I do not assume it is for others with entirely different medical, ethical, financial, familial, and resource concerns in play. So you shouldn't either.
Edward M wrote: But that's intolerance, that still exists, abortion won't change that.
Bannasidhe wrote: » Ask the women who found themselves in the Laundries. Like this woman who found herself in Bessborough in 1984.http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/bessborough-mother-and-baby-home-story-1563790-Jul2014/ Has it occurred to you that people thought you were married? Either way, are you sure if your partner had been alone in rural Cavan with a child she would have had no problems?
Edward M wrote: » No offence to you, but I think most of that you say about abortion being available is crap, as if the need arose even here, you could still travel.
Edward M wrote: » But why, I mean where did they come from? I had a child with my first partner in the 80s, in rural Cavan, we lived together for 4 years after the child was born, we had no problems or our daughter either. I really would like to know where in Ireland this wasn't possible at that time?
Bannasidhe wrote: » You're doing it again Ed. Reading things I never wrote. My only reference to abortion was the helpline. I did say that unmarried mothers left so they could raise their children - the very opposite of what you seemed to think I said. I was very clear in my original post about this that I was referring to the circles I moved in - not the entire Irish experience. I have no idea what the Irish experience in, for example, Kilburn was because I only set food in the place once and thought I has accidentally ended up in Roscommon c1979. Jeez - coul:cool:d people please read all the words in a post.
Edward M wrote: » I know loads, including myself for a while, who left for economic reasons only, I would venture to say at least 90% did it for economic reasons. Of course a fair few would have left because of lifestyle choices also, and the reasoning behind a lot of it was because of the laws regarding sexual orientation. But I would venture to say very very few women or men left because if they got pregnant they could get an abortion in the UK. A good few may have left to have an abortion and stayed, but honestly, are you trying to say that women left here with the premeditated intention of having an abortion if they got pregnant?
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » I do not know if any comprehensive study has been done on reasons why people left the country so I am not sure anyone is in the position to answer your question with anything but anecdote. Anecdote is not evidence of course but I can offer my own. I know people who DID leave for kind of that reason but not how you phrased it. Rather they left because they considered all the pros and cons of being pregnant and having children in Ireland, including evaluating unfortunate scenarios where abortion might be required but not attainable, and overall decided Ireland was not the place to be pregnant and (hopefully, ultimately) have children in. They wanted to be pregnant in a country where they had more control over their own reproductive autonomy and choices. Abortion was however only ONE factor in that. There was plenty more. I certainly know that I myself, here in Germany, have benefited mightily from the medical system here with both our pregnancies and children. Just this year I decided on a whim to go to specialists on eyes, others on ears, others on teeth, others on the nose and throat, one on back and posture development, one on nutrition, one on feet and so on and so on. Basically decided to have EVERYTHING checked. The sum cost of this to me out of my pocket at the time? Zero euro and zero cent. We also have 14 months pain (75% of salary) parental leave to split between us as we saw fit. Herself took a few months while I worked nearly a full year on half days. All great stuff. So I would not put it as crassly as "women left here with the premeditated intention of having an abortion if they got pregnant" but I would say many factors, including abortion, have indeed come into peoples decision to take their reproductive plans and life journey elsewhere. We can but hope that a repeal in the upcoming election mediates at least SOME of that. But it certainly will not be everything.
Edward M wrote: » A good few may have left to have an abortion and stayed, but honestly, are you trying to say that women left here with the premeditated intention of having an abortion if they got pregnant?
Bannasidhe wrote: » I reckon I know who I worked with and hung out with in London in the 80s. We were the Irish Queers and the Lefties - the same people who 'manned' the Abortion Info lines - and yes - we left for social reasons and there was a lot of us because if you were gay or socially liberal Ireland was no place for you. Edit to add : or if you wanted a divorce, or to raise your 'illegitimate' child, or were a survivor of one of Ireland's many institutions designed to make life hell for the socially unacceptable. And again - given I was there and these were my peers - I remember how Robinson's election caused us to decide it was time to bring the fight back home. I didn't say it was all the Irish. I said it was the Irish I worked, lived among, and played with, and we were both politically and socially very aware. It's not always about economics.
markodaly wrote: » Let us be honest here, the reason most people left Ireland was for economic reasons not social reasons. I am sure it played a part for some, but getting a job was foremost in peoples thinking. Also, the election of Mary Robinson was at a time where the Celtic Tiger was about to unleash itself. Again, economic reasons bringing people back.
markodaly wrote: » We amended the Constitution to get rid of capital punishment, did we not? See Criminal law.
Most of our human rights legalisation has been imported from the EU, we have had no say in it.
markodaly wrote: » Yes, GDP growth rates of 8.5% is terrible.https://countryeconomy.com/gdp/ireland?year=1990 :pac:
ohnonotgmail wrote: » well except things were still pretty **** economically.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » No we didnt.
The Twenty-first Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland introduced a constitutional ban on the death penalty and removed all references to capital punishment from the text. It was effected by the Twenty-first Amendment of the Constitution Act, 2001, which was approved by referendum on 7 June 2001 and signed into law on 27 March 2002.
markodaly wrote: » Was 'about to' unleash itself.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » Robinson was elected president in 1990. the celtic tiger didnt even start until 4 or 5 years later.
