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Is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

oxygen

As the title suggest is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

I have seen the scenario below several times, its happened to me once...

- 10 minutes before the train departing a person sits in a seat with no indicator on that it is pre-booked.
- 5 minutes before the train departing the indicator comes on with the persons name who booked the seat.
- 1 minutes before or at time of departure the person who book the seat comes and request that person get out of their seat.

Now, I got out of the seat, thinking fair enough, but if you look at the "Passenger's Charter" > "Conditions of Travel" > "Section E" > 43.6

"Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must
be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train."

I do not blame the person who booked the seat, or the person who unknowingly sat down in a prebooked seat, the fault lies solely at Irish Rails inadequate implementation of this booking feature.

As an annual ticket holder, it seems a bit unfair that I have to give up my seat to someone when I dont have the option of prebooking seats or knowing that this seat was booked in advance of sitting down. More often than not those trains are standing room only by the time the person who booked the seat arrives.

Also those prebooked seats often seem to be not taken up by the person who booked them. When you book a ticket you can choose "Manual Selection" or "Automatic Selection". If you choose "Automatic Selection" this is like waiving any interest in a prebooked seat. When that person gets on the train, their likely to sit at the first available seat. However there is a seat prebooked for them with their name on it. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on above)

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joeysoap

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I'd NEVER say pensioners - they deserve absolutely everything going and I doubt anyone would disagree with me on that.

PeterParker957 wrote: »

my point was SOME people get a FTP and don't need it, they then get to pay a few quid extra (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it) and then get a seat on a packed train

To be fair you didn’t say pensioners.

[Deleted User]

This thread reminds me of my recent experience on the train. Had prebooked a seat, knowing I'd probably be hanging for the 1.5 hour train ride back from our work Xmas party.

Got onto the train, a girl was in my seat....no big deal I thought, as the one next to her wasn't reserved, so I just took that. The girl look surprised, and said 'Oh'. I just said something like 'it's fine, no problem'. Next thing, the girl's mother came in wheeling who I guess was her brother in a wheelchair, and they clearly wanted to all sit together.

Obviously, I wasn't mentioning my reserved seat, and off I took my hungover self to find another seat.

joeysoap

I’m from Dundalk so it’s mostly the Enterprise or commuter train for me. I doubt more than 4/5 times a year. Once in January this year, next in April. So I have very little experience of booked seats. From the trips I have made I found Belfast passengers expect two seats each, and very reluctantly remove their belongings from the free seat. They appear to even competing with each other as to who will blink first. Only one stop between Dundalk and Connolly and Drogheda passengers have little chance of a seat. There are staff on the enterprise but Stevie Wonder has better eyesight when it comes to seeing seats blocked with bags and passengers standing. Even though it has a zillion stops I would travel on the commuter out of choice. It fills up by Balbriggan or Malahide but no one is hogging empty seats, Confess I never noticed booked seats previously but do recall mostly green seats signs on the Enterprise (free)

I think if IE are charging for/selling seats they ensure the system works fairly.

DelaneyO

Can you not just get the train conductor to move the person?

oxygen

Can we just clear up one issue people keep coming back to. People who pay for an annual commuter ticket, or people with free travel passes can not book seats. There is no "paying extra" to book a seats in either instance.

The only people who can book seats are those who book online.

1st issue : When booking only you have the option of "Automatic Seat Selection" or "Manual Seat Selection". Both of these options assign a seat for you. I think people who select "Automatic Seat Selection" don’t usually search for their seats so they are left empty for the journey while people are left standing.

2nd issue is : Its often the case that the pre-booked indicators do not come on trains until 5-10 minutes before departure time. This is often after someone has sat in a prebooked seat and all the other seats have since been filled. The person who sat in this seat is perfectly entitled to remain in this seat because as per the passenger charter "Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train." -See OP

The fault here lies solely at CIE inadequate implementation of this system. As I see it the options should be

1. Ensure the booked seats indicators are displaying before allowing boarding on any train.

2. Provide only booking option for "Manual Seat Selection" or "No Allocated Seat Selection". This puts a responsibility on the booker to look for their seat if they were provided one. I think it would cut down on instances of customers sitting in the first available empty seat rather than the seat assigned to them.

2. Provide commuters and FTP users an option to book seats. No reason either of these customers should be treated any differently than casual travelers.

3. Update passenger charter quoted above.

cython

oxygen wrote: »

Can we just clear up one issue people keep coming back to. People who pay for an annual commuter ticket, or people with free travel passes can not book seats. There is no "paying extra" to book a seats in either instance.

The only people who can book seats are those who book online.

Wrong, they can book a "Seat Only Reservation" online to use in conjunction with their ticket/pass

oxygen wrote: »

1st issue : When booking only you have the option of "Automatic Seat Selection" or "Manual Seat Selection". Both of these options assign a seat for you. I think people who select "Automatic Seat Selection" don’t usually search for their seats so they are left empty for the journey while people are left standing.

2nd issue is : Its often the case that the pre-booked indicators do not come on trains until 5-10 minutes before departure time. This is often after someone has sat in a prebooked seat and all the other seats have since been filled. The person who sat in this seat is perfectly entitled to remain in this seat because as per the passenger charter "Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train." -See OP

The fault here lies solely at CIE inadequate implementation of this system. As I see it the options should be

1. Ensure the booked seats indicators are displaying before allowing boarding on any train.

2. Provide only booking option for "Manual Seat Selection" or "No Allocated Seat Selection". This puts a responsibility on the booker to look for their seat if they were provided one. I think it would cut down on instances of customers sitting in the first available empty seat rather than the seat assigned to them.

2. Provide commuters and FTP users an option to book seats. No reason either of these customers should be treated any differently than casual travelers.

3. Update passenger charter quoted above.

goingnowhere

oxygen wrote: »

1. Ensure the booked seats indicators are displaying before allowing boarding on any train.

Agreed

oxygen wrote: »

2. Provide only booking option for "Manual Seat Selection" or "No Allocated Seat Selection". This puts a responsibility on the booker to look for their seat if they were provided one. I think it would cut down on instances of customers sitting in the first available empty seat rather than the seat assigned to them.

Can't see why this is an issue, people can pick their seat or are allocated a seat, seat and coach number is clearly shown at the end of the booking and on the ticket. If people can't figure out where they sit we have a bigger issue

oxygen wrote: »

2. Provide commuters and FTP users an option to book seats. No reason either of these customers should be treated any differently than casual travelers.

Already can

oxygen wrote: »

3. Update passenger charter quoted above.

Not needed

oxygen

cython wrote: »

Wrong, they can book a "Seat Only Reservation" online to use in conjunction with their ticket/pass

So its only annual travel ticket holders who cant book tickets, now it seems really specific and unfair...

Scrap that, can see now there is an option for commuters to book a seat... good to know

goingnowhere

Anyone can book at seat

Online its included
existing single or return ticket
Monthly, annual
FTP ticket
Interrail ticket
Ticket sold by a travel agent per UIC/CIV agreements
Ticket sold by Stena line or Irish Ferries
FIP tickets

99nsr125

Just give up the seat
You didn't book it
Someone else did

oxygen wrote: »

As the title suggest is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

I have seen the scenario below several times, its happened to me once...

- 10 minutes before the train departing a person sits in a seat with no indicator on that it is pre-booked.
- 5 minutes before the train departing the indicator comes on with the persons name who booked the seat.
- 1 minutes before or at time of departure the person who book the seat comes and request that person get out of their seat.

Now, I got out of the seat, thinking fair enough, but if you look at the "Passenger's Charter" > "Conditions of Travel" > "Section E" > 43.6

"Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must
be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train."

I do not blame the person who booked the seat, or the person who unknowingly sat down in a prebooked seat, the fault lies solely at Irish Rails inadequate implementation of this booking feature.

As an annual ticket holder, it seems a bit unfair that I have to give up my seat to someone when I dont have the option of prebooking seats or knowing that this seat was booked in advance of sitting down. More often than not those trains are standing room only by the time the person who booked the seat arrives.

Also those prebooked seats often seem to be not taken up by the person who booked them. When you book a ticket you can choose "Manual Selection" or "Automatic Selection". If you choose "Automatic Selection" this is like waiving any interest in a prebooked seat. When that person gets on the train, their likely to sit at the first available seat. However there is a seat prebooked for them with their name on it. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on above)

oxygen

goingnowhere wrote: »

Anyone can book at seat

Online its included
existing single or return ticket
Monthly, annual
FTP ticket
Interrail ticket
Ticket sold by a travel agent per UIC/CIV agreements
Ticket sold by Stena line or Irish Ferries
FIP tickets

and as per passenger charter, "must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised departure time of the train."

goingnowhere

Charter is not a contract

joeysoap

Do they open the ‘gates’ 20 mins before departure?
I know with the Enterprise you have a sitting area After you enter the platform and you are directed there (much the same as airports) before they open the doors of this sitting area to let you board the train. This is after they have visually checked your ticket. (Non of those ticket gates used for enterprise )

i can’t recall ever sitting on the train more than 5-10 mins before departure.

Podge_irl

oxygen wrote: »

and as per passenger charter, "must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised departure time of the train."

"available" for boarding is not the same as boarded and in seat.

LuckyLloyd

Basil3 wrote: »

This thread reminds me of my recent experience on the train. Had prebooked a seat, knowing I'd probably be hanging for the 1.5 hour train ride back from our work Xmas party.

Got onto the train, a girl was in my seat....no big deal I thought, as the one next to her wasn't reserved, so I just took that. The girl look surprised, and said 'Oh'. I just said something like 'it's fine, no problem'. Next thing, the girl's mother came in wheeling who I guess was her brother in a wheelchair, and they clearly wanted to all sit together.

Obviously, I wasn't mentioning my reserved seat, and off I took my hungover self to find another seat.

I would have just noted to her that she was in my seat. Simple.

Addle

I had a seat booked on the Westport to Dublin train on carriage e this morning.
There was no carriage e.
Big match and march on in Dublin. No allowances made.
I'm dreading the journey home.

Jamie2k9

Technically you don't have to move seats but you should out of respect. I usually do however if the person has an attitude about it I don't....

After all its not there fault that IE are totally incompetent they manage to f*ck up something so basic as a reservation system and don't manually assign seats.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Technically you don't have to move seats but you should out of respect. I usually do however if the person has an attitude about it I don't....

After all its not there fault that IE are totally incompetent they manage to f*ck up something so basic as a reservation system and don't manually assign seats.

Bit of an expert on it i see.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Bit of an expert on it i see.

Irish Rail are in breach of the contract they made with the customer when the reservation system fails (hence refund procedure). Those other passengers are not obliged to move from their seats in such circumstances.

The reservation system problem is now into its 11th year...

Jamie2k9

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1984/si/109/made/en/print

29. (1) No person shall occupy or use any compartment or seat in any vehicle on the railway upon which or in relation to which notice has been fixed or given by the Board that such compartment or seat is reserved, except the holder of a reservation ticket issued by the Board in respect of the holder's occupation or use of such compartment or seat.

Two problems here, legislation not updated to reflect IT advances within CIE and as stated above the obligation is on Irish Rail to provide notice of a reservation.

So you don't have to move seats unless there is a clear notice in place....

mutedtempest

Hmmm, haven't taken the train as yet but now I'm likely not going to. I'm blind and would book a seat out of necessity but honestly don't want to have to worry about upsetting any commuters who might be sitting there when I try to claim it.

Have more than enough hassles with people who don't want to move from the handicapped seats on the local buses to deal with it for hours on a train.

TG1

I don't understand how there are 17 pages of discussion on this thread. If I book a seat, I expect that seat to be available to me. If someone else does not book a seat but sits in my booked seat, I expect them to move on.

Likewise, if I don't book a seat I won't sit in a booked one just for the hell of it. If I'm sitting in a booked seat accidently and the person who has paid for that seat arrives I will move. They paid for the privilege of gaurenteeing a seat. I did not, so why should I have that seat?

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail are in breach of the contract they made with the customer when the reservation system fails (hence refund procedure). Those other passengers are not obliged to move from their seats in such circumstances.

The reservation system problem is now into its 11th year...

You didn't answer me are you an expert on the reservation system?

Hilly Bill

mutedtempest wrote: »

Hmmm, haven't taken the train as yet but now I'm likely not going to. I'm blind and would book a seat out of necessity but honestly don't want to have to worry about upsetting any commuters who might be sitting there when I try to claim it.

Have more than enough hassles with people who don't want to move from the handicapped seats on the local buses to deal with it for hours on a train.

You don't have to book, you would get put on the train and into a seat.

SuperS54

TG1 wrote: »

I don't understand how there are 17 pages of discussion on this thread. If I book a seat, I expect that seat to be available to me. If someone else does not book a seat but sits in my booked seat, I expect them to move on.

Likewise, if I don't book a seat I won't sit in a booked one just for the hell of it. If I'm sitting in a booked seat accidently and the person who has paid for that seat arrives I will move. They paid for the privilege of gaurenteeing a seat. I did not, so why should I have that seat?

That's not the issue described in the OP. The OP's scenario is;

- 10 minutes before the train departing a person sits in a seat with no indicator on that it is pre-booked.
- 5 minutes before the train departing the indicator comes on with the persons name who booked the seat.
- 1 minutes before or at time of departure the person who book the seat comes and request that person get out of their seat.

So if I get on a train I have to take a lottery in deciding which seat to sit in as some of them may later turn out to be reserved? That's hardly fair either, by the time the indicator light comes on in the above scenario all alternate seats may already have been taken so, even though I arrived good and early, I'd have to stand.

Jack Kanoff

SuperS54 wrote: »

That's not the issue described in the OP. The OP's scenario is;

- 10 minutes before the train departing a person sits in a seat with no indicator on that it is pre-booked.
- 5 minutes before the train departing the indicator comes on with the persons name who booked the seat.
- 1 minutes before or at time of departure the person who book the seat comes and request that person get out of their seat.

So if I get on a train I have to take a lottery in deciding which seat to sit in as some of them may later turn out to be reserved? That's hardly fair either, by the time the indicator light comes on in the above scenario all alternate seats may already have been taken so, even though I arrived good and early, I'd have to stand.

But that's not the customers fault..if I've booked a seat..and you're sitting in it...I'm going to ask you to move...the seat number is on my ticket also..

TG1

Jack Kanoff wrote: »

But that's not the customers fault..if I've booked a seat..and you're sitting in it...I'm going to ask you to move...the seat number is on my ticket also..

Exactly. I've moved out of seats before in the scenario described. If you don't book a seat it's a lottery as to whether you get one anyway. That's the chance you take by not booking a seat.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You didn't answer me are you an expert on the reservation system?

Question wasn't specific and no, as you well know.

11 years and they have not addressed it, that's the problem and I don't need to be an expert. It should of been fixed long ago or have staff assign seats manually. Its not acceptable to offer reservations on a system which has a high failure rate.

The whole thing cannot be that complicated nor massively different to most train operators. The increase % of online bookings is adding to the problems because the data isn't uploading fast enough.

Emme

mutedtempest wrote: »

Hmmm, haven't taken the train as yet but now I'm likely not going to. I'm blind and would book a seat out of necessity but honestly don't want to have to worry about upsetting any commuters who might be sitting there when I try to claim it.

Have more than enough hassles with people who don't want to move from the handicapped seats on the local buses to deal with it for hours on a train.

You should ask a member of Irish Rail staff to escort you to your seat when you board the train. Most people on trains are happy to give up their seats for the disabled or incapacitated.

SuperS54

Jack Kanoff wrote: »

But that's not the customers fault..if I've booked a seat..and you're sitting in it...I'm going to ask you to move...the seat number is on my ticket also..

If there were other options available then I'd certainly move. If on the another hand there was standing room only and there was no indication of which seats were reserved until there was standing room only then I'd ask you to take the issue up with a member of staff.