Race Saturation point

Testosterscone · 07-03-2018 9:10pm #1

Looking at the race calendar this year is it becoming untenable?

Few examples;

7th July - Roscommon 10
14th July - Irish Road Runner 10 mile
August 12th - Monaghan 10
August 19th - Kilcock 10 mile
August 26th - Frank Duffy 10 mile

Also seeing the way the K Club 10k is bouncing around the calendar (moved from clashing with Dunboyne 4 mile to clashing with Clontarf 10 mile.

Is this killing competitive racing in this country through the proliferation of fields?

Edit: Mullingar 10 now been moved to 28th of July as well :rolleyes:

jamule · 07-03-2018 9:23pm

Testosterscone wrote: »

Looking at the race calendar this year is it becoming untenable?

Few examples;

7th July - Roscommon 10
14th July - Irish Road Runner 10 mile
August 12th - Monaghan 10
August 19th - Kilcock 10 mile
August 26th - Frank Duffy 10 mile

Also seeing the way the K Club 10k is bouncing around the calendar (moved from clashing with Dunboyne 4 mile to clashing with Clontarf 10 mile.

Is this killing competitive racing in this country through the proliferation of fields?

And your missing the blaney 10m around the 20th of july. Its getting a bit out of hand. The bubble will have to burst.

dublin runner · 07-03-2018 9:33pm

All depends on how we view a race; how we judge it's level of 'success'. Most people, including organisers, simply look at the bottom line - participation levels. That is obviously very understandable as races live and die by numbers and entry fees.

Does race saturation kill competition? By and large, yes. Does Ireland, much like the GAA, need a Master Fixture Plan, properly implemented? Absolutely. There is no logic to the calendar in the main. Take a look at the calendar, so many races clash (expect a lot more after the recent weather) but on the otherhand, there are so many weeks of very little activity.

10 Milers just happen to be in vogue at the moment - so 2018!

Testosterscone · 07-03-2018 9:35pm

dublin runner wrote: »

10 Milers just happen to be in vogue at the moment - so 2018!

kinda of ironic when what was once regarded as one of the best road races in Europe went by the wayside only last year.

average_runner · 07-03-2018 9:40pm

Really sad to see dunboyne 4 miler and 10k club clashing.

Never heard of kilcock 10 miler, any good?

dublin runner · 07-03-2018 9:44pm

Testosterscone wrote: »

kinda of ironic when what was once regarded as one of the best road races in Europe went by the wayside only last year.

Interestingly I think that reignited the 10 mile road race scene. It probably was the catalyst behind some of the recently new 10 mile races announced.

2019: The 8km race is going to be so 'on point' next year.....it's sooooo due a comeback!! So 2019.....

jamule · 07-03-2018 9:55pm

dublin runner wrote: »

Interestingly I think that reignited the 10 mile road race scene. It probably was the catalyst behind some of the recently new 10 mile races announced.

2019: The 8km race is going to be so 'on point' next year.....it's sooooo due a comeback!! So 2019.....

Not sure about that, was thinking the next big thing will be 16k

Testosterscone · 07-03-2018 10:04pm

average_runner wrote: »

Really sad to see dunboyne 4 miler and 10k club clashing.

Never heard of kilcock 10 miler, any good?

They aren't. K Club been moved to 31st now (Clashes with Clontarf 10 mile)

Organised by St. Coca's AFAIK

OOnegative · 07-03-2018 10:06pm

dublin runner wrote: »

Interestingly I think that reignited the 10 mile road race scene. It probably was the catalyst behind some of the recently new 10 mile races announced.

2019: The 8km race is going to be so 'on point' next year.....it's sooooo due a comeback!! So 2019.....

No it will just get like continental Europe instead,15km are all the rage here by looks of things!!!

Bananaleaf · 07-03-2018 11:16pm

average_runner wrote: »

Never heard of kilcock 10 miler, any good?

Kilcock 10 mile is being organised by St Coca's.

It's a new one - first year of it this year.

I've done their 5k in June and that was really good so looking forward to this one. AII permit too.

I don't know about all the new emerging road races being a bad thing though. I think it's a good thing. None of the heavy-hitters would ever really clash I'd imagine and I guess that new locations and new routes can be nice for those of us who might get a bit bored returning to the same routes year on year.

I would think that in terms of it killing competition, maybe it won't. Maybe what it might do is spread it out a bit more, thus increasing some people's chances (not me. Never me :P) of placing higher.

Ultraman100 · 07-03-2018 11:17pm

fock all 20 milers....seems to be a lot of races alright

Testosterscone · 07-03-2018 11:36pm

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I don't know about all the new emerging road races being a bad thing though. I think it's a good thing. None of the heavy-hitters would ever really clash I'd imagine and I guess that new locations and new routes can be nice for those of us who might get a bit bored returning to the same routes year on year.

I would think that in terms of it killing competition, maybe it won't. Maybe what it might do is spread it out a bit more, thus increasing some people's chances (not me. Never me :P) of placing higher.

Look at it from this perspective. Full road closures are expensive and require garda presence and overtime to be paid. If fields were bigger this cost could be feasible but if there is a road race every week in the area then garda won't have man power to do this and then you get back to partial closures etc.

In terms of competition also this is the point. Say for example in you have 50 sub 70 min 10 mile runners. Spread them over 4 or five races and suddenly your chances of isolation and effectively time trialing increase, gives alot more time to focus on the negatives and doubts creeping in as opposed to simply racing.

Either that or you lose some runners from some race simply because there is a slight better chance of a prize in the other or to avoid x and y. You don't rise to the occasion but rather bring the bar down which in itself kills competitive spirit also.

Coffee Fulled Runner · 08-03-2018 11:31am

Testosterscone wrote: »

In terms of competition also this is the point. Say for example in you have 50 sub 70 min 10 mile runners. Spread them over 4 or five races and suddenly your chances of isolation and effectively time trialing increase, gives alot more time to focus on the negatives and doubts creeping in as opposed to simply racing.
.

I tend to avoid races where I know I'll be isolated for long periods. Nothing worse then been at the 5 mile mark knowing you're not going to catch the sub 60 runners I'd be around 64 and no one around you to race against.

OOnegative · 08-03-2018 11:35am

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

I tend to avoid races where I know I'll be isolated for long periods. Nothing worse then been at the 5 mile mark knowing you're not going to catch the sub 60 runners I'd be around 64 and no one around you to race against.

Running solo in races can be great for mental strength to, if you can push yourself solo it should stand to you even more when racing in larger groups.

Coffee Fulled Runner · 08-03-2018 2:10pm

OOnegative wrote: »

Running solo in races can be great for mental strength to, if you can push yourself solo it should stand to you even more when racing in larger groups.

I agree to a point. In 2016 I think 70% of my races I found myself isolated. I still race in small local races where I know I'll get isolated but I use them as practice races

Slow_Runner · 08-03-2018 3:09pm

I'm one of the organizers for the Kilcock 10 mile and we started last November trying to pick a date that didn't clash with other races in Leinster which was surprisingly difficult. Ironically we picked the 10 mile distance as we thought there was a gap for this distance and there was plenty of 1/2 marathons scheduled. Also looking at the numbers the likes of Trim and Ballycotton (rip) get in the run up to spring marathons there is definitely a demand.
I think the reason for the clustering of all these races is they are scheduled and marketed as tune up races to Autumn marathons - our own race's selling point is 10 miles, 10 weeks out from DCM (hence the "10 from 10") so you have a small window in which to pitch your race, very fwe people would have a 10 mile as a target race unlike 5/10ks and HMs
The races listed by the OP I think, geographically speaking, are not really clashing - Roscommon and Monaghan are accessible to the West and North so will get the numbers. Only real clash is ourselves and Frank Duffy :angel:, while FD is a fantastic race we thought there was room for an alternative away from the park(this was before it moved to Fingal which means there is even more of a gap!).
[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One thing about a lot of races is it will force competition and innovation for the race organizers which can only be a good thing for the runners.[/font]

average_runner wrote: »

Never heard of kilcock 10 miler, any good?

First year for this one. We're aiming to have the same small club race feel for a bigger event, friendly, accessible and big spread afterwards. Oh and its going to be flat - very flat :).

RayCun · 08-03-2018 7:31pm

I think the better races will continue to attract the crowd, and particularly to attract the better runners, who are likely to be more experienced and less interested in gimmicks. I can't think of any high quality races that have been driven out by poor quality competition.

And if people want a race, they usually know where to get it. But often they decide where to run based on other things.

Testosterscone · 08-03-2018 7:34pm

RayCun wrote: »

I think the better races will continue to attract the crowd, and particularly to attract the better runners, who are likely to be more experienced and less interested in gimmicks. I can't think of any high quality races that have been driven out by poor quality competition.

Could you argue the lack of help and support from volunteers contributed to Ballycotton's demise? Its not just competition from participants but also the limited competent volunteer pool that gets stretched.

RayCun · 08-03-2018 7:36pm

Testosterscone wrote: »

Could you argue the lack of help and support from volunteers contributed to Ballycotton's demise? Its not just competition from participants but also the limited competent volunteer pool

Ah, that's a different thing altogether.

average_runner · 08-03-2018 10:22pm

Slow_Runner wrote: »

I'm one of the organizers for the Kilcock 10 mile and we started last November trying to pick a date that didn't clash with other races in Leinster which was surprisingly difficult. Ironically we picked the 10 mile distance as we thought there was a gap for this distance and there was plenty of 1/2 marathons scheduled. Also looking at the numbers the likes of Trim and Ballycotton (rip) get in the run up to spring marathons there is definitely a demand.
I think the reason for the clustering of all these races is they are scheduled and marketed as tune up races to Autumn marathons - our own race's selling point is 10 miles, 10 weeks out from DCM (hence the "10 from 10") so you have a small window in which to pitch your race, very fwe people would have a 10 mile as a target race unlike 5/10ks and HMs
The races listed by the OP I think, geographically speaking, are not really clashing - Roscommon and Monaghan are accessible to the West and North so will get the numbers. Only real clash is ourselves and Frank Duffy :angel:, while FD is a fantastic race we thought there was room for an alternative away from the park(this was before it moved to Fingal which means there is even more of a gap!).
[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One thing about a lot of races is it will force competition and innovation for the race organizers which can only be a good thing for the runners.[/font]

First year for this one. We're aiming to have the same small club race feel for a bigger event, friendly, accessible and big spread afterwards. Oh and its going to be flat - very flat :).

Looking forward to it.

TFBubendorfer · 09-03-2018 9:12am

Testosterscone wrote: »

Could you argue the lack of help and support from volunteers contributed to Ballycotton's demise? Its not just competition from participants but also the limited competent volunteer pool that gets stretched.

That exactly was the reason that was given for the end of that race. It was held in a very small community and keeping sufficient numbers of volunteers was always going to be more challenging than for a race held in a bigger town.

RayCun · 09-03-2018 1:26pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That exactly was the reason that was given for the end of that race. It was held in a very small community and keeping sufficient numbers of volunteers was always going to be more challenging than for a race held in a bigger town.

But Ballycotton wasn't losing volunteers to other races afaik, it wasn't a victim of race saturation. It was unusual in the first place, because not put on by a club or other continuing organisation

youngrun · 09-03-2018 3:27pm

Testosterscone wrote: »

Looking at the race calendar this year is it becoming untenable?

Few examples;

7th July - Roscommon 10
14th July - Irish Road Runner 10 mile
August 12th - Monaghan 10
August 19th - Kilcock 10 mile
August 26th - Frank Duffy 10 mile

Also seeing the way the K Club 10k is bouncing around the calendar (moved from clashing with Dunboyne 4 mile to clashing with Clontarf 10 mile.

Is this killing competitive racing in this country through the proliferation of fields?

Edit: Mullingar 10 now been moved to 28th of July as well :rolleyes:

A lot of races out west are losing numbers and have been for last 2/3 years. The big ones are holding solid .
Age of road runners is pushing on . The pot of runners at top end is low and falling . Major challenge for athletics in retaining and recruiting 20-35 bracket Parkrun impacting on a lot of races why would you go to a race when PR is there. Lot of organising and unless you get 200 no point. may be a different issue in Dublin area

BeepBeep67 · 09-03-2018 4:24pm

RayCun wrote: »

But Ballycotton wasn't losing volunteers to other races afaik, it wasn't a victim of race saturation. It was unusual in the first place, because not put on by a club or other continuing organisation

Having never done the race, but from an outside view, the race probably out grew itself and even in a remote location like Ballycotton the demands of the Gardai and Emergency services with regard to developing robust event plans, with well thought out emergency and health and safety procedures can be both cost and capability prohibitive. In previous years you probably called in a few favours because you knew the local sergeant and someone that done a first aid course a few years ago, that doesn't fly as your event increases in size.

It's a big ask for 'volunteers' to take responsibility for those things and devote the necessary time to doing it right.

Timmaay · 10-03-2018 5:40pm

Having help organize countless road races over the years, I know how soul destroyed it is to see alot of hard work go to waste when a race does not achieve anywhere near the expected income. Yes the calendar is certainly saturated in my view, and something needs to be done keep a good standard in races and make races more profitable.

I would suggest that some of the clubs come together to try to form larger races, where they can pool their volunteer resources and experience, and reduce the number of clashes. In around Kildare and west Dublin area there are a large number of clubs, who could certainly work together if they wanted to. It would be a win win, less effort overall, bigger fields, and reduced calendar congestion.

Nuttzz · 12-03-2018 11:20am

I'm pretty new to the running scene so forgive some of my ignorance.

Does AAI have a role to play here, insofar as they could give out only X number of permits per region for each weekend. I might help reduce the number of clashes, I appreciate that can still run events without an AAI permit but if there was an AAI calendar of events that were officially approved then the quality of those fields might be better?

The Davestator · 12-03-2018 12:16pm

On a related note - what is the best resource for run events?
Is there one that lists them all, or is it a case of looking at run Ireland etc

OOnegative · 12-03-2018 12:23pm

The Davestator wrote: »

On a related note - what is the best resource for run events?
Is there one that lists them all, or is it a case of looking at run Ireland etc

Lindie Naughton has a fairly comprehensive list on her blog.

joey1111 · 12-03-2018 12:41pm

Its only a race saturation point if its going under and races are having to shut down because they're not making any money out of it.

I havn't read of any such races stopping because of a popularity crisis.

If anything its making everything more competitive, lower prices, drumming up more interest. We might even garner more interest in the sport and produce a star or two.

Its great having options northside and south and also down the country too with a surprising amount of races popping up in more remote spots so people dont have to travel.

Win win situation to me.

RayCun · 12-03-2018 2:52pm

Races are approved by county boards, not the national body. They are not supposed to clash, but of course you can have a race in Dublin, one in Kildare, one in Meath... all on the same day.

Sunny Dayz · 12-03-2018 6:06pm

Obviously there will be a tipping point. I'd imagine if you were in Dublin you'd have a choice of races of some distance or another almost every weekend. However where I am there's not a great choice and I do have to travel a bit if I want a race and then I have to really want to do it.

I think the tipping point will come about when the cost of organising races and the increasing price of race entries reaches a point - what that point is I don't know. But it will get to the stage where organisers will be tied to a particular entry price in order to make the run viable but then not attract enough entries.
This is what has happened from what I can see in motorsport, the cost of putting on a rally has increased, there was a rally on nearly every weekend and competitors couldn't afford to compete in as many, and then the rally wouldn't have enough competitors to cover costs. So many events, mainly smaller ones have be cancelled for this year.

Race Saturation point

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