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Tubeless road - it actually works

brownian

I got my first puncture on my Schwalbe Pro One tubeless setup today. Naturally, it was freezing and raining.

I noticed the back wheel felt a bit soft, so I stopped and squeezed it. Sure enough, deffo losing/lost air. Rode on a bit, hoping it'd self-seal, like the theory says.

Five minutes later, had another squeeze. Seems stable. Whip out the pump, lash in some air, so it feels properly hard again (70 PSI? Hard to say in the rain etc., but certainly good to ride).

Four hours later (snow, slush, water, even the odd bit of tarmac), safely home. There is a nasty little cut in the tyre, but no air coming out at all.

While I'm at it - the tubeless do seem to be faster than my usual Conti GP4000sIIs. Certainly hitting a lot of strave PMs without obvious additional effort. The new tubeless wheels are 33mm rims (AL33s), and so a bit more aero, in theory than the 22mm climbing wheels I'd usually use (and also about 350g heavier). I can't see the rims making a big difference (happy to be corrected), so inclined to credit the tubeless.

Anyway, that's just for anyone considering going tubeless - all my experience (maybe 500km) to date is positive.

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axer

Sounds to me for a commuter cycling on urban roads it would be safer to go clinchers like GP 4 seasons. Sounds like tubeless are relatively ok against punctures but when they go wrong they go horribly wrong whereas if using normal tyres with a tube then worst case scenario a quick tube change resolves issues. Think I will ditch the tubeless and go clincher on my new bike. Thanks for advice.

aworthycause

That doesn't really make sense. If you read the first post, they allow you to ride out many punctures. If you get one that's too big for the sealant to work on, stick in a tube and ride it like a clincher.

Relatively ok? Relative to what? Stopping? I have had two punctures in races, both of which I ost no speed and finished the races. The sealant closed it up.

Horribly wrong? It's just putting a tire on a wheel. How horrible can it be?

Eamonnator

I don't want to put people off going tubeless because of my experience.
Thanks to everybody, who has given me advice.
Apologies again to O.P. for completely derailing the thread.

I started off again this morning on the wheels.
I put a tube in and inflated the tyre, it was hard to get the tyre on. I took the tube out and reseated the tyre. I put in 60mls of sealant, through the valve, having first removed the core. I rotated the tyre to get the fluid well distributed. I held the wheel off the ground and tried to pump with a track pump. No joy. I tried a CO2 cartridge. No joy. I then sealed around the tyre and rim with duct tape. I tried again. No joy. I then got soapy water and put that around the tyre bead. Still no joy. I also tried rolling the wheel along the ground to seat the tyre.
I think my problem is that the beads of the tyre won't hook onto the rim. But nothing I do helps, there's always a gap between the tyre bead and the side of the rim.
Anyway, I'm running out of CO2 cartridges, patience and ideas. I have now hung the wheels in the garage and hopefully, before Spring, a miracle will occur.

Thanks again to all, who tried to help.

E.

triggermortis

I have tubeless on my MTB and never have any problem inflating new tyres. I use a track pump and keep the valve at the 12 o'clock position and press the tyre towards the rim with my hand thats not operating the pump. That forces the tyre to go towards the seating position on the rim. Usually the tyre stats popping (literally - it makes a popping noise) into place and I pump it until its fully inflated. Soapy water helps to seat the tyre and see any leaks.
Once it has been inflated for 5 minutes, I deflate it, remove the valve core and pour in the sealant (I use Stans) refit the core and re-inflate - keeping the tyre upright and the valve at 12 o'clock. Then I give it a good spin to move the sealant all around.
@ Eamonnator - If you're close to NCD, I'm working lates all week and so have every morning free if you want a second pair of hands to try and get them fitted. I've never tried road wheels, but it can't be impossible

brownian

Soem great tips on this thread - thank you all!

axer

aworthycause wrote: »

That doesn't really make sense. If you read the first post, they allow you to ride out many punctures. If you get one that's too big for the sealant to work on, stick in a tube and ride it like a clincher.

Relatively ok? Relative to what? Stopping? I have had two punctures in races, both of which I ost no speed and finished the races. The sealant closed it up.

Horribly wrong? It's just putting a tire on a wheel. How horrible can it be?

My concern is being stuck trying to get the tyre off and back on the wheel if it is more difficult than a clincher. Don't fancy trying to do that in cold weather or when it is lashing raining. Would there be sealant all over my hands also?
Then if there are any issues with sealant and using co2.
As andy69 asked, what are the advantages for a road bike with tubeless over, say, Gp 4 seasons tyres with a tube?

cyfac

axer wrote: »

My concern is being stuck trying to get the tyre off and back on the wheel if it is more difficult than a clincher. Don't fancy trying to do that in cold weather or when it is lashing raining. Would there be sealant all over my hands also?
Then if there are any issues with sealant and using co2.
As andy69 asked, what are the advantages for a road bike with tubeless over, say, Gp 4 seasons tyres with a tube?

Tubeless are simply superior in every way using all year round for the past 3 years on cr*p roads here in cork sealant has never failed to seal when called on i think the problem with the fitting may be with the width of the rim a wider rim gives greater ability to tease on the tyre also you can buy tyre levers specific for tubeless check out the cycle clinic website for videos on fitting etc he is a sound guy i have 3 sets of wheels from him each better than the last

rollingscone

axer wrote: »

My concern is being stuck trying to get the tyre off and back on the wheel if it is more difficult than a clincher. Don't fancy trying to do that in cold weather or when it is lashing raining. Would there be sealant all over my hands also?
Then if there are any issues with sealant and using co2.
As andy69 asked, what are the advantages for a road bike with tubeless over, say, Gp 4 seasons tyres with a tube?

You only need C02 to install it not to put in a tube.

The only (rare) problem that could occur is the bead suctioning to the rim like an octopus it's never happened to me on the road and only once at home.

Basically I carry a small aluminium clamp for such an occurrence but I'm sure something could be improvised with a cable tie.

nilhg

cyfac wrote: »

Tubeless are simply superior in every way using all year round for the past 3 years on cr*p roads here in cork sealant has never failed to seal when called on i think the problem with the fitting may be with the width of the rim a wider rim gives greater ability to tease on the tyre also you can buy tyre levers specific for tubeless check out the cycle clinic website for videos on fitting etc he is a sound guy i have 3 sets of wheels from him each better than the last

The video on the cycle clinic site referenced above would suggest that Eamonnator's problem might be solved by adding some extra rim tape,

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/pages/tech-page

harringtonp

Reviving this great thread as just fitted a rear Schwalbe Pro tyre to a Velocity A23 rim. Took the tape that came with the wheel off and added two layers of

https://www.mantel.com/uk/schwalbe-tubeless-rim-tape

as was advised to go around twice when pressures are higher.

Bought a Lifeline Airblast from CRC before Xmas (reduced to 43 euro at the time)

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/lifeline-airblast-tubeless-tyre-track-pump/rp-prod155451

and it worked a treat. The pump is very solid and should be great for normal use too. Initially air was coming out slowly and this seemed mostly around the valve so took the tyre off and put a small amount of sealant around the valve area (which was at 12 o clock) and went again with the Airblast. This time pressure seemed to be holding. So took out the valve core, put in the larger part of 60mm of Schwalbe Doc Blue (note to self, in future have the right amount in container and squirt it all in rather than trying to guess when half way through a 60 mm bottle) and reinflated.

Noticed that pressure would hold but then as you'd pump it up more it would leak and the eventually hold the higher pressure as you keep pumping. Spun the wheel vertically and saw that the height varied. Though initially that it wasn't a tru wheel but then realised that the tyre was a lot lower on one side than the other. The lower side was not seated properly even though it was holding pressure. So let the air out and with a tyre lever took the tyre off at the low side before putting it on again. Did this a couple of times in different places and finally managed to get it seated properly all the way around and the height was constant on spinning as expected. Noticed plenty of loud pops this time as I inflated to 100PSI and air seemed to be holding well. Plan on riding it at 75-80 but decided to go to higher pressure initially to be sure of seating it properly.

Have not ridden it yet and there was a lot of experimentation getting it on but I'm hoping this is a once off learning experience.

I had a go with tubeless on different rims last summer but couldn't manage it. The A23s may be easier but I suspect the real difference was the lifeline Airblast pump. If you don't have this type of pump Eamonator I'd invest in one and try again.

gmacww

Question. New wheels are tubeless ready and I'm toying with the idea to go tubeless for the commuter. If you get a puncture can you still use the tyre until it wears out fully or is it like a car tyre? As in with emergency sealant on a car tyre it's to get you home. ASAP you replace or get the tyre repaired. Is it the same with tubeless bike tyres? Obviously if it's a big slit then yes but for standard punctures?

brownian

No, you keep using the tyre. Small holes (the usual kind) self-seal. If you lost some air, pump up and go. Otherwise just go. I got a puncture a few months back, and pumped the tyre back up, and rode on. Haven't looked at it since.

You can fix small to medium holes with an anchovy - a bit of rubber, basically. Big gashes mean the bin, as with any other tyre.

harringtonp

Question guys, when you are putting in more sealant do you just take out the valve head and pour it in over the old sealant or do you take the tyre off and try and clean the old sealant off ?

harringtonp

harringtonp wrote: »

Question guys, when you are putting in more sealant do you just take out the valve head and pour it in over the old sealant or do you take the tyre off and try and clean the old sealant off ?

Somebody must have an opinion or experience of this, not seeing too much online, anyone ?

And if pouring through the valve subsequent times is less needed as gaps etc will already have been plugged ?

iwillhtfu

harringtonp wrote: »

Somebody must have an opinion or experience of this, not seeing too much online, anyone ?

And if pouring through the valve subsequent times is less needed as gaps etc will already have been plugged ?

I just pour more in. It doesn't really dry out. I spilled some in the attic a few months ago when I was changing tyres and it's still wet to touch.

I still put in the same amount when filling through the valve it's only a tiny bit used to cover the rim when seating anyway. you could probably put in less if you wanted but hardly any weight savings if that's your concern.

columbus_66

If you open the valve isn't all the sealant going to come out? Wouldn't you have to put in new sealant under pressure like from and CO2 canister?

harringtonp

columbus_66 wrote: »

If you open the valve isn't all the sealant going to come out? Wouldn't you have to put in new sealant under pressure like from and CO2 canister?

When fitting it I had to open the valve with sealant already in and not much came out. If you open it with the valve at 12 I'd imagine almost nothing comes out

harringtonp

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I just pour more in. It doesn't really dry out. I spilled some in the attic a few months ago when I was changing tyres and it's still wet to touch.

I still put in the same amount when filling through the valve it's only a tiny bit used to cover the rim when seating anyway. you could probably put in less if you wanted but hardly any weight savings if that's your concern.

Suppose I'm wondering if you keep putting in 30mls every few months without cleaning. 7x30ml is 210ml is approx 210g and this is extra weight.

But I wonder does the old stuff just eventually vanishes and as you say the extra weight is negligible ?

I ask because once you take the tyre off you have to reseat it and there is always the risk that this just may not happen for you.

columbus_66

at 100psi? if the sealant doesn't come out how would it ever fix a puncture?

harringtonp

columbus_66 wrote: »

at 100psi? if the sealant doesn't come out how would it ever fix a puncture?

Because when you get a puncture the wheel is rotating

cython

harringtonp wrote: »

Because when you get a puncture the wheel is rotating

This. Tubeless sealant only works because of the centrifugal force it experiences while the wheel is rotating spreading it around the inside of the tyre. If you had a stationary wheel and punctured the tyre at the top, it won't seal most of the time. It's not aerosolised or anything, so as mentioned if you remove the valve core with the valve at the top of the wheel there won't be much leakage. Though even if it was at 3 or 4 on a clock face, I wouldn't expect much either, as 70ml is only about 2 shots of spirits!

youtheman

I have just converted to tubeless tyres for my race bike. Early days but my initial observation is that it was unbelievably hard to get them on in the first place. Broke 4 tyre levers. In fact you have to be aware how close you are to breaking the levers. Carbon rims so I don't want to go for metal levers. Normally you can get by with 2 levers. Now I need the 3, and you have to take off smaller 'bites'. In the end you'll have just about an inch of the bead to get on, but find it very hard to get the third lever under the bead. Taking them off is even harder. I think if I ever get a puncture on the road (that the sealant won't fix) I'll just have to get a taxi home (even though I have a spare tube in the saddle bag).
On the plus side, I had no problem getting the first tyre to seal with just a normal track pump. Different story with the second tyre. Turns out there was a big leak between the rim tape and the valve, The sealant came pissing out through the vent hole in the carbon rim. I used almost all my sealant, and made a right mess in the kitchen. On my last attempt I just put my finger over the vent hole for a second (to stop the leak) and he-presto, the sealant worked. Like black magic.
By the way, before I went totally tubeless I put sealant into my normal tubes. Only realised when I took off the tyre recently that I had obviously got a puncture previously that I never even noticed. Sealant did it's job. Highly recommend this approach, for a winter bike at least.

harringtonp

youtheman wrote: »

I have just converted to tubeless tyres for my race bike. Early days but my initial observation is that it was unbelievably hard to get them on in the first place. Broke 4 tyre levers. In fact you have to be aware how close you are to breaking the levers. Carbon rims so I don't want to go for metal levers. Normally you can get by with 2 levers. Now I need the 3, and you have to take off smaller 'bites'. In the end you'll have just about an inch of the bead to get on, but find it very hard to get the third lever under the bead. Taking them off is even harder. I think if I ever get a puncture on the road (that the sealant won't fix) I'll just have to get a taxi home (even though I have a spare tube in the saddle bag).
On the plus side, I had no problem getting the first tyre to seal with just a normal track pump. Different story with the second tyre. Turns out there was a big leak between the rim tape and the valve, The sealant came pissing out through the vent hole in the carbon rim. I used almost all my sealant, and made a right mess in the kitchen. On my last attempt I just put my finger over the vent hole for a second (to stop the leak) and he-presto, the sealant worked. Like black magic.
By the way, before I went totally tubeless I put sealant into my normal tubes. Only realised when I took off the tyre recently that I had obviously got a puncture previously that I never even noticed. Sealant did it's job. Highly recommend this approach, for a winter bike at least.

I think every rim/tyre combination will be different. I had to work hard to get the Schwalbe Pro One 23mm on a Velocity A23 rim (3 levers with lots of flex) but a Schwalbe Pro one 25mm went on to a Carbonal rim almost too easy (no levers)

secman

Think the thread title is misleading , should read "pain in the b0llix to get on and pain in the h0le to get offf" that's just from reading the reviews....

harringtonp

secman wrote: »

Think the thread title is misleading , should read "pain in the b0llix to get on and pain in the h0le to get offf" that's just from reading the reviews....

Like everything new there is a learning curve and I think you have to judge maintenance effort once the basics have been learned.

Nobody here bats an eyelid at clincher management as we have been doing it since kids (how old were you when you fixed your first puncture..). But if you consider all the tricks you learned over the years with clinchers to make puncture repair and new tube/tyre install as easy as possible there is a lot of knowledge that has been built up.

I'm early in the learning stages of tubeless but don't get the feeling that it is more complex than clinchers. Tube management is replaced by sealant management and getting the tyre to seal.

And it will only get easier as it becomes common knowledge which rims and tyres work well together (I remember been unable to get a tyre on to a clincher and having to bring it to the LBS to do it)

Some of the "tubeless experience" posts above are long but could you imagine how long a post could be if a newbie posted every little detail about how they got a tyre and tube on to a clincher.

cyfac

youtheman wrote: »

I have just converted to tubeless tyres for my race bike. Early days but my initial observation is that it was unbelievably hard to get them on in the first place. Broke 4 tyre levers. In fact you have to be aware how close you are to breaking the levers. Carbon rims so I don't want to go for metal levers. Normally you can get by with 2 levers. Now I need the 3, and you have to take off smaller 'bites'. In the end you'll have just about an inch of the bead to get on, but find it very hard to get the third lever under the bead. Taking them off is even harder. I think if I ever get a puncture on the road (that the sealant won't fix) I'll just have to get a taxi home (even though I have a spare tube in the saddle bag).
On the plus side, I had no problem getting the first tyre to seal with just a normal track pump. Different story with the second tyre. Turns out there was a big leak between the rim tape and the valve, The sealant came pissing out through the vent hole in the carbon rim. I used almost all my sealant, and made a right mess in the kitchen. On my last attempt I just put my finger over the vent hole for a second (to stop the leak) and he-presto, the sealant worked. Like black magic.
By the way, before I went totally tubeless I put sealant into my normal tubes. Only realised when I took off the tyre recently that I had obviously got a puncture previously that I never even noticed. Sealant did it's job. Highly recommend this approach, for a winter bike at least.

You need to invest in a set of tubeless specific tyre levers any of the on line shops will have them i use them on my 50mm carbons and there perfect although i admit they take a fair bit of grunt at the end one lever is specifically for mounting the other removing they cant actually be used for clinchers they are the specific tool for this job

youtheman

cyfac wrote: »

youtheman wrote: »

I have just converted to tubeless tyres for my race bike. Early days but my initial observation is that it was unbelievably hard to get them on in the first place. Broke 4 tyre levers. In fact you have to be aware how close you are to breaking the levers. Carbon rims so I don't want to go for metal levers. Normally you can get by with 2 levers. Now I need the 3, and you have to take off smaller 'bites'. In the end you'll have just about an inch of the bead to get on, but find it very hard to get the third lever under the bead. Taking them off is even harder. I think if I ever get a puncture on the road (that the sealant won't fix) I'll just have to get a taxi home (even though I have a spare tube in the saddle bag).
On the plus side, I had no problem getting the first tyre to seal with just a normal track pump. Different story with the second tyre. Turns out there was a big leak between the rim tape and the valve, The sealant came pissing out through the vent hole in the carbon rim. I used almost all my sealant, and made a right mess in the kitchen. On my last attempt I just put my finger over the vent hole for a second (to stop the leak) and he-presto, the sealant worked. Like black magic.
By the way, before I went totally tubeless I put sealant into my normal tubes. Only realised when I took off the tyre recently that I had obviously got a puncture previously that I never even noticed. Sealant did it's job. Highly recommend this approach, for a winter bike at least.

You need to invest in a set of tubeless specific tyre levers any of the on line shops will have them i use them on my 50mm carbons and there perfect although i admit they take a fair bit of grunt at the end one lever is specifically for mounting the other removing they cant actually be used for clinchers they are the specific tool for this job

Sounds very interesting. Do you have a link by any chance?. I'd definitely purchase if they will make the job easier.

brownian

you might consider a tyrekey?

ford2600

Just fitted Schwalbe G one speed 35mm tyres on DT Swiss R460 rim and was surprised how easy it was.

Tyres shouldn't be the problem on the cobbles!

harringtonp

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I just pour more in. It doesn't really dry out. I spilled some in the attic a few months ago when I was changing tyres and it's still wet to touch.

I still put in the same amount when filling through the valve it's only a tiny bit used to cover the rim when seating anyway. you could probably put in less if you wanted but hardly any weight savings if that's your concern.

Just put 25cl into Carbon rims this evening. First time topping up and very easy. I'd nearly say that removable valve cores are essential, the tyre held good shape and there was no problem pumping them up again. If I had to remove to tyres to insert extra sealant I'd imagine it would be a lot more time consuming.