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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Annasopra

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It'd be a brave gang of TDs who would reject it if the Referendum passes with that as the proposed framework.

And we don't have gangs of brave TDs.

It depends really. I think if the referendum passed 52/48 they are given some ammunition. Whereas 65/35 less so. There might just be enough FF/FG and Indo TDs to reject it. A number of TDs in FG and FF have already said they will support the referendum but not the 12 week legislation. They also 2 Ministers and 2 Junior Ministers amongst that rank.

Loafing Oaf

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There might just be enough FF/FG and Indo TDs to reject it.

Yes if nearly every FG TD who has yet to declare their position votes against the legislation. And we saw what happened when FG TDs' feet were held to the fire over POLDPA. It will be a different kind of pressure this time, they won't be threatened with expulsion of the party, but when faced with the prospect of an ongoing crisis over the issue I'm sure the majority of them will be trooping into the Ta lobby...

Zubeneschamali

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Ywhen faced with the prospect of an ongoing crisis over the issue I'm sure the majority of them will be trooping into the Ta lobby...

The Referendum will provide the cover these wobbly TDs will need to pass the legislation.

The last thing they will want is to shoot down the 12 week legislation to be asked "So... what do you want to pass in the place of the PLDPA?", because then they will own it, whatever it is. Will Coveney really want to own Simon Coveney's 10 Week Abortion Act?

Loafing Oaf

I'm sure the vast majority of FG TDs who have yet to declare their position on abortion have no firm convictions on abortion and just want the whole thing to go away. I'm also confident they're very much open to convincing that the best way to do that, based on the experience of other countries and Ireland's own experience of once-contentious social issues, is to pass 'liberal abortion' legislation...

amdublin

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No protection up to 12 weeks, then abortion only for medically necessary cases after that.

Which, correct me if wrong, is the same as the moment. Just the location will change: from where ever currently (e.g. the UK) to Ireland .

Call me Al

Ismisejack wrote: »

Well in the unfortunate scenario the 8th is repealed, what protection is there for the unborn I ask??

Why? Are you concerned that there will compulsory abortion for all or something? I'm not trying to be facetious but there was no abortion prior to 1982.
It's the addition of such a preposterous Article into our constitution that has left us in the situation we are in.

NuMarvel

Ismisejack wrote: »

Well in the unfortunate scenario the 8th is repealed, what protection is there for the unborn I ask??

There will be whatever protection are set out in legislation, which is good enough for most other countries and was good enough for us up to 1983.

The question isn't what protections will there be, but where should these protections be set out. And as we can see from the last 35 years, that place isn't the constitution.

Loafing Oaf

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Will Coveney really want to own Simon Coveney's 10 Week Abortion Act?

Has Coveney actually definitively said he is opposed to the 12-week proposal? Or is he engaged in an even more elaborate and drawn-out version of Leo's wrestling bout with his conscience?

Edward M

The verdict due this morning on this case, rte showing it live I see. If this verdict doesent overturn the high courts decision then its back to the drawing board, referendum will likely be postponed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0307/945560-supreme-court-rights-of-unborn/

nice_guy80

the inward looking opinions of those on here arguing against the repeal, is quite ridiculous

Peregrinus

amdublin wrote: »

Which, correct me if wrong, is the same as the moment. Just the location will change: from where ever currently (e.g. the UK) to Ireland .

Not quite. In Great Britain there is (in effect) abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. So, assuming the proposed Irish legislation is passed, the position will be:

Up to 12 weeks pregnant: abortion freely available in Ireland
12-24 weeks: abortion freely available in practice in GB. The woman will have to find two doctors willing to certify that continuing the pregnancy presents a greater threat to her health than terminating it, but she will have no difficulty finding doctors willing to certify this.
Above 24 weeks: Abortion only available in very restricted circumstances either here or in GB. The circumstances in which it will be permitted may differ slightly as between the Republic and GB. In practice very few women seek abortions after 24 weeks and, of those who do, nearly all have pressing (and distressing) medical reasons for doing so.

volchitsa

Abortion will of course continue to be available up to 24 weeks in the UK, but I think two things may change the ease of availability to Irish women in the future:

One is that currently because of the ban on abortion, Irish women are sometimes given cheaper (subsidized) rates. It's hard to see why that should continue if Ireland has similar abortion legislation to the rest of Europe, so in practice, abortion post 12 weeks would likely bemore expensive and complicated than at the moment. (Personally I'm okay with that, as the vast majority of abortions are carried out before that date anyway).

The other is unrelated to our legislation, and that is the UK leaving the EU. There are so many ways that will affect us that it would be unwise to assume that healthcare isn't one of them. In fact I think it is bound to be. And if Ireland has some level of abortion available, UK charities are not going to prioritize Irish women who just didn't get their act together in Ireland. Which is fair enough.

nozzferrahhtoo

volchitsa wrote: »

(Personally I'm okay with that, as the vast majority of abortions are carried out before that date anyway).

True. But I also suspect you mean the cost of the abortion ITSELF will be more expensive (potentially). But not the cost of the whole abortion experience when you factor in time off work, flights, accommodation (especially if the woman can not or does not wish to travel alone which doubles these expenses) and more?

Is it safe to suspect that many women would gladly pay more for the abortion itself, given the associated reduction in associated costs, mere convenience, and dealing with side effects medically or financially?

volchitsa

Well I was thinking about the implied claim that even if we bring in abortion up to 12 weeks, many women will just go to the UK anyway after 12 weeks just because they can wait until later that way. Or that there would be pressure to align the Irish system with the UK because of those extra weeks.

IMO that is not the issue, but what might happen is that women won't feel safe using the Irish system (confidentiality and the risk of crazies turning up outside your house). I think I would need to be desperate before I'd risk it myself. But some women are desperate of course.

So yeah, I wasnt talking about costs in money terms, but more whether women might continue using the UK healthcare system even after abortion is legalized in Ireland. I think it will be more difficult, expensive and complicated for them to do so, but that some women will still prefer the anonymity and lack of judgmentalism of the UK, especially in the earaly months and maybe years, if problems arise in Ireland.

Whether that option will continue to be available to them in the longer term is another question, as I said.

Loafing Oaf

volchitsa wrote: »

IMO that is not the issue, but what might happen is that women won't feel safe using the Irish system (confidentiality and the risk of crazies turning up outside your house).

Don't see why this would happen with a GP-led service. How would anyone else find out why you are going to the doctor, any more than with any medical issue?

seamus

The Supreme Court has struck down the High Court's ruling:

The unborn does not have inherent constitutional rights outside the right to life in the 8th amendment.

The judges' decision was unanimous.

*Phew*!

Call me Al

Can someone enlighten me... what other constitutional rights could a foetus have had, beyond the right to life of the woman? Iona requested to have a voice heard in this case. What were they arguing for?
Eta question answered after a little bit of research.

drkpower

seamus wrote: »

The Supreme Court has struck down the High Court's ruling:

The unborn does not have inherent constitutional rights outside the right to life in the 8th amendment.

The judges' decision was unanimous.

*Phew*!

Mind you, this could strengthen the argument of the pro-life narrative that the 8th is the only thing maintaining any protection whatsoever for the unborn at all stages of gestation.

Obviously that is nonsense (the whole point of the referendum is to allow the Oireachtas to provide that protection via statute law) but it will be how it is spun.

PhoenixParker

Call me Al wrote: »

Can someone enlighten me... what other constitutional rights could a foetus have had, beyond the right to life of the woman? Iona requested to have a voice heard in this case. What were they arguing for?

Well if you regard a fetus as completely equal to a baby child benefit & child support would start from the moment of conception, any woman experiencing a miscarriage would be entitled to full maternity leave. . .

Those are things I can think of. I'm sure there are more.

seamus

Call me Al wrote: »

Can someone enlighten me... what other constitutional rights could a foetus have had, beyond the right to life of the woman? Iona requested to have a voice heard in this case. What were they arguing for?

Functionally the argument was that the unborn had the same rights as a born child, which would include their right to security of a home, etc etc. It potentially had wide-ranging issues, including the state appointing a "advocate" to every pregnant woman to represent the legal rights of the unborn while in the womb, down to more mundane things like the payment of child benefit for children not yet born.

The argument being made in this case was that an illegal immigrant should not be deported because he had a child on the way, and that child's constitutional rights would be infringed by the deportation of its parent.

The judgement is still being read afaik, the judges have added a footnote that even though the unborn has no additional inherent rights, the authorities need to acknowledge in such cases that there will be a child in the near future who has constitutional rights that can be asserted, and that should be taken into account when it comes to enforcing deportation orders.

volchitsa

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Don't see why this would happen with a GP-led service. How would anyone else find out why you are going to the doctor, any more than with any medical issue?

Doctor's secretary? Ours is shocking sometimes, with the personal information they either announce to the whole waiting room, or expect the person to announce, again in front of everyone.

Not to mention the chances of someone in the practice telling their best friend etc etc. Not saying it should happen, but it does - and concerning abortion women will be particularly worried about that, whether or not it's likely.

And even more so for any surgical intervention. Medical records sent to the GP afterwards too, perhaps?

Oh, and phone calls. In a small town a information can be gathered from hearing the secretary's phones calls - even when you dont want to!

seamus

drkpower wrote: »

Mind you, this could strengthen the argument of the pro-life narrative that the 8th is the only thing maintaining any protection whatsoever for the unborn at all stages of gestation.

Obviously that is nonsense (the whole point of the referendum is to allow the Oireachtas to provide that protection via statute law) but it will be how it is spun.

Indeed, though it's a card they've already been playing, so it really just lets them play it a little harder.

I think the opposite outcome was their preferred. Not just because it would delay the referendum, but because it would also legitimise the "foetuses are people too" canard that they love to state, but have no factual basis for.

JDD

So go to another town? You not restricted to your local gp's office. Any gp will be able to prescribe the termination pill. Or don't tell the doctors secretary what you're booking the appointment for - say a sinus infection and tell the doctor when you get in there. And if you don't trust your gp not to blab about it, pick a new gp.

Edward M

volchitsa wrote: »

Doctor's secretary? Ours is shocking sometimes, with the personal information they either announce to the whole waiting room, or expect the person to announce, again in front of everyone.

Not to mention the chances of someone in the practice telling their best friend etc etc. Not saying it should happen, but it does - and concerning abortion women will be particularly worried about that, whether or not it's likely.

And even more so for any surgical intervention. Medical records sent to the GP afterwards too, perhaps?

Oh, and phone calls. In a small town a information can be gathered from hearing the secretary's phones calls - even when you dont want to!

You could always still go to England!

Timberrrrrrrr

Edward M wrote: »

You could always still go to England!

This time next year they won't have to.

Edward M

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This time next year they won't have to.

Well let's hope so, but if you fear the neighbours gossiping then maybe its a way to avoid it.
Later terminations,will probably still have to though anyway.

Water John

Iona ran the line, that William Binchy had expert experience on the law, in this area and would be able to assist the learned judges. Absolutely impartial, of course.

Zubeneschamali

Water John wrote: »

Iona ran the line, that William Binchy had expert experience on the law, in this area

He is certainly the man who has made the biggest mistake in the history of Constitutional Law in Ireland, so presumably he has learned the most from his mistakes.

Peregrinus

volchitsa wrote: »

Well I was thinking about the implied claim that even if we bring in abortion up to 12 weeks, many women will just go to the UK anyway after 12 weeks just because they can wait until later that way. Or that there would be pressure to align the Irish system with the UK because of those extra weeks.

IMO that is not the issue, but what might happen is that women won't feel safe using the Irish system (confidentiality and the risk of crazies turning up outside your house). I think I would need to be desperate before I'd risk it myself. But some women are desperate of course.

So yeah, I wasnt talking about costs in money terms, but more whether women might continue using the UK healthcare system even after abortion is legalized in Ireland. I think it will be more difficult, expensive and complicated for them to do so, but that some women will still prefer the anonymity and lack of judgmentalism of the UK, especially in the earaly months and maybe years, if problems arise in Ireland.

Whether that option will continue to be available to them in the longer term is another question, as I said.

The proposed 12-week limit for free abortion is lower than the corresponding limit in Great Britain, but it's not out of line with European norms. In most western European countries, abortions become significantly more difficult to get once you enter the second trimester. But that doesn't seem to lead to a flood of women from those countries going to Britain, and I doubt that it will in Ireland. Generally speaking, if you want an abortion, the sooner you have it the better, from every point of view, and there is no particular advantage in delaying it until the second trimester. Even in the UK, where the law does not encourage or require this, the overwhelming bulk of abortions happen in the first trimester.

I take the point that concerns about confidentiality and/or social attitudes might make women cautious about seeking an abortion locally, but I doubt that they will be faced with a simple binary of going to their regular GP, shared with their family members and neighbours, or going to Britain. There will surely be the option of going to GP practices or specialised clinics in other towns or cities in Ireland.

nice_guy80

and yet the unborn baby had plenty of protection before the 8th amendment was inserted into the constitution anyway

I don't remember hearing about the thousands of back alley abortions being carried out in the 60s, 70s, 80s
was there a concerted campaign against unborn babies before the 8th was voted in?