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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Peregrinus

amdublin wrote: »

Which, correct me if wrong, is the same as the moment. Just the location will change: from where ever currently (e.g. the UK) to Ireland .

Not quite. In Great Britain there is (in effect) abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. So, assuming the proposed Irish legislation is passed, the position will be:

Up to 12 weeks pregnant: abortion freely available in Ireland
12-24 weeks: abortion freely available in practice in GB. The woman will have to find two doctors willing to certify that continuing the pregnancy presents a greater threat to her health than terminating it, but she will have no difficulty finding doctors willing to certify this.
Above 24 weeks: Abortion only available in very restricted circumstances either here or in GB. The circumstances in which it will be permitted may differ slightly as between the Republic and GB. In practice very few women seek abortions after 24 weeks and, of those who do, nearly all have pressing (and distressing) medical reasons for doing so.

nice_guy80

the inward looking opinions of those on here arguing against the repeal, is quite ridiculous

Edward M

The verdict due this morning on this case, rte showing it live I see. If this verdict doesent overturn the high courts decision then its back to the drawing board, referendum will likely be postponed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0307/945560-supreme-court-rights-of-unborn/

Loafing Oaf

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Will Coveney really want to own Simon Coveney's 10 Week Abortion Act?

Has Coveney actually definitively said he is opposed to the 12-week proposal? Or is he engaged in an even more elaborate and drawn-out version of Leo's wrestling bout with his conscience?

NuMarvel

Ismisejack wrote: »

Well in the unfortunate scenario the 8th is repealed, what protection is there for the unborn I ask??

There will be whatever protection are set out in legislation, which is good enough for most other countries and was good enough for us up to 1983.

The question isn't what protections will there be, but where should these protections be set out. And as we can see from the last 35 years, that place isn't the constitution.

Call me Al

Ismisejack wrote: »

Well in the unfortunate scenario the 8th is repealed, what protection is there for the unborn I ask??

Why? Are you concerned that there will compulsory abortion for all or something? I'm not trying to be facetious but there was no abortion prior to 1982.
It's the addition of such a preposterous Article into our constitution that has left us in the situation we are in.

amdublin

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No protection up to 12 weeks, then abortion only for medically necessary cases after that.

Which, correct me if wrong, is the same as the moment. Just the location will change: from where ever currently (e.g. the UK) to Ireland .

Loafing Oaf

I'm sure the vast majority of FG TDs who have yet to declare their position on abortion have no firm convictions on abortion and just want the whole thing to go away. I'm also confident they're very much open to convincing that the best way to do that, based on the experience of other countries and Ireland's own experience of once-contentious social issues, is to pass 'liberal abortion' legislation...

Zubeneschamali

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Ywhen faced with the prospect of an ongoing crisis over the issue I'm sure the majority of them will be trooping into the Ta lobby...

The Referendum will provide the cover these wobbly TDs will need to pass the legislation.

The last thing they will want is to shoot down the 12 week legislation to be asked "So... what do you want to pass in the place of the PLDPA?", because then they will own it, whatever it is. Will Coveney really want to own Simon Coveney's 10 Week Abortion Act?

Loafing Oaf

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There might just be enough FF/FG and Indo TDs to reject it.

Yes if nearly every FG TD who has yet to declare their position votes against the legislation. And we saw what happened when FG TDs' feet were held to the fire over POLDPA. It will be a different kind of pressure this time, they won't be threatened with expulsion of the party, but when faced with the prospect of an ongoing crisis over the issue I'm sure the majority of them will be trooping into the Ta lobby...

Annasopra

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It'd be a brave gang of TDs who would reject it if the Referendum passes with that as the proposed framework.

And we don't have gangs of brave TDs.

It depends really. I think if the referendum passed 52/48 they are given some ammunition. Whereas 65/35 less so. There might just be enough FF/FG and Indo TDs to reject it. A number of TDs in FG and FF have already said they will support the referendum but not the 12 week legislation. They also 2 Ministers and 2 Junior Ministers amongst that rank.

Zubeneschamali

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

That is a proposal. It is not guatanteed to pass the Oireachtas.

It'd be a brave gang of TDs who would reject it if the Referendum passes with that as the proposed framework.

And we don't have gangs of brave TDs.

Annasopra

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No protection up to 12 weeks, then abortion only for medically necessary cases after that.

That is a proposal. It is not guatanteed to pass the Oireachtas.

Zubeneschamali

Ismisejack wrote: »

Well in the unfortunate scenario the 8th is repealed, what protection is there for the unborn I ask?

No protection up to 12 weeks, then abortion only for medically necessary cases after that.

nozzferrahhtoo

Charmeleon wrote: »

Just catching up to lol at this post. I can actually feel the fundamentalism.

Fundamentalists do not tend to engage in open and honest debate and discourse. Which I was doing. You..... not so much. So I suggest perhaps the use of a mirror before you fling labels around that you do not seem to even understand the meaning of. Because the reason you can "feel" it, is it is in YOU.

You will find actually addressing my points a little more challenging than merely dodging them, ignoring them, and laughing at them though.

As another user already said....

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed. Those who have no actual rebuttal are forced to resort to mocking.

Ismisejack

Well in the unfortunate scenario the 8th is repealed, what protection is there for the unborn I ask??

Annasopra

sondagefaux wrote: »

The Supreme Court held decades ago that the Constitution guarantees a right to bodily integrity.

https://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/ihrec_human_rights_explained.pdf

Here's a summary of the case (Ryan v Attorney General) which decided that the Constitution contained an unenumerated right to bodily integrity:

http://lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/237766/1/FlourideSupplementArt7.pdf

Yeah ok but still. This is all irrelevant. The referendum is NOT going to be placing any time limits in the constitution.

sondagefaux

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

And there's no way of knowing that a future government won't make female genital mutilation mandatory. But call me Mr. Complacent, I'm satisfied we don't need an article in the constitution specifically ruling that out...

The Supreme Court held decades ago that the Constitution guarantees a right to bodily integrity.

In addition, the Courts have interpreted the Constitution as including
certain other human rights. These are referred to as unenumerated
rights (not explicitly set out in the Constitution but recognised by the
Courts), and include:

• Right to bodily integrity;
• Right to freedom from torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or
punishment;
• Right to work and earn a livelihood; and
• Right to privacy.

https://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/ihrec_human_rights_explained.pdf

Here's a summary of the case (Ryan v Attorney General) which decided that the Constitution contained an unenumerated right to bodily integrity:

http://lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/237766/1/FlourideSupplementArt7.pdf

Annasopra

sondagefaux wrote: »

Why would it have to be elected on such a platform?

People vote for parties for multiple reasons in general elections.

There's no way for certain that you can know what a future Oireachtas, if it has carte blanche to legislate on abortion, will do.

The only way to be certain that the general public get to decide on abortion is to insert clauses into the proposed amendment to the effect that abortion cannot be made illegal up to 12 weeks and to specify the reasons why it remains legal after 12 weeks.

The citizens assembly and oireachtas committee reccomended against this. The cabinet accepted most of the reccomendations of both. Therefore this is an irrelevant debate. The proposed constitutional change will not include specific time limits.

Annasopra

JDD wrote: »

No. The oireachtas have said they’ll bring in legislation to allow abortion up to 12 weeks.

No

The citizens assembly and oireachtas committee reccomended the Oireachtas should do this. The cabinet with 1 or 2 exceptions agreed. If repeal happens the Oireachtas will then debate the proposed legislation. The 12 week legislation is not guaranteed to be voted by the Oireachtas. All the Left (labour, pbp, soc dems, greens, independents 4 change). It is not yet supported by SF but probably will be. FF and FG have free votes.

Loafing Oaf

sondagefaux wrote: »

There's no way for certain that you can know what a future Oireachtas, if it has carte blanche to legislate on abortion, will do.

And there's no way of knowing that a future government won't make female genital mutilation mandatory. But call me Mr. Complacent, I'm satisfied we don't need an article in the constitution specifically ruling that out...

Bannasidhe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That was the position of the Church of Ireland back in 83 - anti abortion and anti 8th.

My recollection was that the RCC had an objection to FG changing the wording not the principle of the 8th.

I can't access the State Papers for 1983 at home but these articles seem to support my recollection.

The Catholic hierarchy supported the original wording, while many of the other churches in the land disagreed for various reasons.

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-referendum-1983-what-happened-1225430-Dec2013/

when a Catholic-run school in Co Mayo bombarded its local TD Enda Kenny with letters from pupils demanding a “pro-life” referendum – even though the students were too young to vote themselves. The wording on each letter was so similar it had all the hallmarks of a homework exercise.

This was, of course, part of a bigger show of strength by the Irish church. The “pro-life” amendment campaign was largely driven by lay Catholics, but would not have got off the ground without the hierarchy’s approval.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/church-fatally-overplayed-hand-in-1983-abortion-poll-1.5458

Priests and Nuns were actively visiting schools spreading anti-abortion scare tactics. There was an unholy (pun intended) at my non-denominational school when this happened at an outside Retreat for RCC students as our principle had previously refused permission for them to speak to students.

I do recall that many Protestant churches were against the 8th - but the RCC was fully supportive of having a clause in the Constitution banning abortion.

Zubeneschamali

rainbow kirby wrote: »

It's possible to be personally pro-life and favour repealing the 8th based on its impact on maternity care in continued pregnancy. It's not just abortion.

That was the position of the Church of Ireland back in 83 - anti abortion and anti 8th.

rainbow kirby

It's possible to be personally pro-life and favour repealing the 8th based on its impact on maternity care in continued pregnancy. It's not just abortion.

Bannasidhe

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I think he/she is mocking amdublin for saying he/she is pro-life and favours repeal of the 8th.

Indeed. Those who have no actual rebuttal are forced to resort to mocking.

Loafing Oaf

kylith wrote: »

How is that pro-choice?

I think he/she is mocking amdublin for saying he/she is pro-life and favours repeal of the 8th.

kylith

applehunter wrote: »

I'm pro choice.

Vote No

Save the 8th

How is that pro-choice?

amdublin

applehunter wrote: »

I'm pro choice.

Vote No

Save the 8th

Pro choice for what exactly?

The current choice for Irish women to have abortions as long as they go abroad for it?

applehunter

I'm pro choice.

Vote No

Save the 8th

amdublin

Thanks Bannashidhe

A long post so too long for quoting.

For me it describes perfectly where we are. Things have to change.

And re. pro birth v pro life as you have decribed it.
I am proud to stand and say I am pro life. And pro choice. And I want the 8th repealed.

Repeal the 8th.