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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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micks_address

illdoit2morrow wrote: »

I'm in a similar situation to yourself albeit I've got the nest installed. The ber assessment needs to be done independently of the person who completed your upgrade, just check that this is the case with your quote.

Yes he has an independent guy..

judeboy101

illdoit2morrow wrote: »

micks_address wrote: »

Yes we probably will be getting the grant anyway as are not that far off the requirements for it, just need a few more trvs ons rads and to update the earth to the cylinder. His quote will include a ber assessment to get the grant. Will know more tomorrow. He is a nest pro installer so id be happy for the job to be complete in one, if there any issues with any of the system he can support the nest boiler/plumbing.
Will depend largely on the quote as if its significantly more than the electric Ireland costs I may still go with them.

Thanks,
Mick

I'm in a similar situation to yourself albeit I've got the nest installed. The ber assessment needs to be done independently of the person who completed your upgrade, just check that this is the case with your quote.

Will a smart heating systems make any diff to a ber on its own?

deezell

judeboy101 wrote: »

Will a smart heating systems make any diff to a ber on its own?

No, ber is just a measure of energy efficiency, heat loss or insulation. Seems odd to require one for heating controls, which are about making savings by heating zones rather than the entire house at any given time. I wonder is a minimum ber required for the grant? An inefficient house will still be inefficient after smart controls, except you can control the wasted heat better.

micks_address

deezell wrote: »

No, ber is just a measure of energy efficiency, heat loss or insulation. Seems odd to require one for heating controls, which are about making savings by heating zones rather than the entire house at any given time. I wonder is a minimum ber required for the grant? An inefficient house will still be inefficient after smart controls, except you can control the wasted heat better.

You need a ber rating is required to get the grant.. I've never had one done so curious to see what the house is..

budhabob

micks_address wrote: »

You need a ber rating is required to get the grant.. I've never had one done so curious to see what the house is..

The BER assessment isn't a very accurate or scientific approach, but its an indicator.

matrim

budhabob wrote: »

The BER assessment isn't a very accurate or scientific approach, but its an indicator.

Our house went from a C2 when we bought it to a D2 after getting a new more efficient heating system put it a year later

fletch

matrim wrote: »

Our house went from a C2 when we bought it to a D2 after getting a new more efficient heating system put it a year later

When was your initial assessment done? The assessment I got for mine (on a new build) wasn't even carried out on a house in my housing estate!

matrim

fletch wrote: »

When was your initial assessment done? The assessment I got for mine (on a new build) wasn't even carried out on a house in my housing estate!

The first one was in early 2016, the new one around November 2017. The second guy basically said that he didn't have proof of our insulation so would have to count it as none and that the original didn't count the fact our neighbour is an office instead of a house.

We called the original guy and asked if he had proof of the insulation from his calculation and he said "I stand by my numbers and will give you a C2 again if you want". Basically making me think the whole thing is a joke.

deezell

matrim wrote: »

The first one was in early 2016, the new one around November 2017. The second guy basically said that he didn't have proof of our insulation so would have to count it as none and that the original didn't count the fact our neighbour is an office instead of a house.

We called the original guy and asked if he had proof of the insulation from his calculation and he said "I stand by my numbers and will give you a C2 again if you want". Basically making me think the whole thing is a joke.

Earns them a few quid. Like some of the results on your NCT, can improve/disimprove from test to test. The only figure that should count is the measured heat emissions for the outside of the house in relation to the temperatures inside. This requires quite a bit of measurment, I doubt if you'll get that for a few hundred euros, but I would expect at least a measure of inside wall temperature less outside wall temp, mutiplied by the surface areas. Same for windows and roof, this will give the heat loss per degree difference per surface area or volume, whatever they use. You could do it your self with a spot thermometer, and a pencil and paper.

Dermobrickie

I no this was probably covered 100 times but could somebody tell me the best set for my house,
It's a new build wit oil and stove with back boiler.
Two zones rads and hot water, but would like the option of third zone for attic in future.
What stat do I put on stove?
Which thermostat would suit me best nest/hive neatamo?

deezell

Dermobrickie wrote: »

I no this was probably covered 100 times but could somebody tell me the best set for my house,
It's a new build wit oil and stove with back boiler.
Two zones rads and hot water, but would like the option of third zone for attic in future.
What stat do I put on stove?
Which thermostat would suit me best nest/hive neatamo?

You need to install a mixing manifold to combine back boiler and oil, which is also used to pump distribute to the zones. Very effective and no zone valves, just reliable pumps. You'll need a small relay box to combine zone stats' call for heat lives to the boiler live in call for heat, and also to trigger at least one zone when the back boiler stat kicks in. These boxes make wiring a doddle.
Typical layout, the more zones, the more ports you specify on the manifold. This design is from NRGAwareness.com
Pick the smart stat of your preference. Tado, Nest, NetaTmo will all integrate well with this. The HW cylinder stat and the stove stat will be standard mechanical stats.

Aph2016

Thinking of selling my 3rd gen nest, hasn't been fitted yet but think I've changed my mind on the whole home heating automation.

AppleKidd

Hi,

I'm thinking of upgrading to a nest thermostat. At current, I've a basic on/off / timer switch. When I turn my heating the water tanks heat up. Well, the nest thermostat do the same thing when it's on?

Thanks in advance

deezell

AppleKidd wrote: »

Hi,

I'm thinking of upgrading to a nest thermostat. At current, I've a basic on/off / timer switch. When I turn my heating the water tanks heat up. Well, the nest thermostat do the same thing when it's on?

Thanks in advance

Yes, if you don't have independent hot water heating the Nest is not going to add this. If your basic timer has a HW/ CH switch, then it should be possible to wire up accordingly. In many installations the difference in the two is that the HW setting disconnects the circulation pump, with the HW heated by gravity from the boiler. This is a very basic method, but some installs don't even have this, with HW and CH always on together. The Nest will give you timed temperature control of the CH, it also has a relay for HW timing, but you would need zone valves installed to seperate the two. If you had HW heating by gravity ( convection), then HW timing relay could be used to cut the circulation pump to mimic HW only time interval, but this would be a bodge at best. PS, see previous post for possible sale of brand new unused Nest!

AppleKidd

deezell wrote: »

Yes, if you don't have independent hot water heating the Nest is not going to add this. If your basic timer has a HW/ CH switch, then it should be possible to wire up accordingly. In many installations the difference in the two is that the HW setting disconnects the circulation pump, with the HW heated by gravity from the boiler. This is a very basic method, but some installs don't even have this, with HW and CH always on together. The Nest will give you timed temperature control of the CH, it also has a relay for HW timing, but you would need zone valves installed to seperate the two. If you had HW heating by gravity ( convection), then HW timing relay could be used to cut the circulation pump to mimic HW only time interval, but this would be a bodge at best. PS, see previous post for possible sale of brand new unused Nest!

Okay, I don't have any independent hot water heating. its just when the heating goes on the water starts to heat up in the tank. So I should be good with the Nest.

deezell

AppleKidd wrote: »

Okay, I don't have any independent hot water heating. its just when the heating goes on the water starts to heat up in the tank. So I should be good with the Nest.

You will, and the HW relay is there if you mod your plumbing in the future to heat HW only

Fr_Dougal

Am thinking of getting the Nest installed. Have recently had a new boiler fitted, 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs, and hot water.

Have a couple of questions, can the h/w stay linked to the heating programmer and run on a timed schedule, with the Nests controlling the two heating zones independently?

Can a Nest thermostat be installed to replace one of my existing stats and be run off the existing programmer? Was thinking of doing a trial run with this setup.

If I decide to go the whole hog and install a Nest thermostat to control the h/w, is that another Nest thermostat attached to the cylinder in the hot press? Or is it a different type thermostat?

Thanks!

Mr.Crinklewood

Anyone used the "Hub Controller" heating system?

https://www.thehubcontroller.com/

They seemed to have some free offer in The Square in Tallaght yesterday, I was with there for work so didn't have time to check things out.

Just wondering if it was any good and what the catch was with the free offer?

RoryW

Plumber recommending Heat Miser over Nest Hive or Honeywell

Comments welcomed

Thanks

micks_address

RoryW wrote: »

Plumber recommending Heat Miser over Nest Hive or Honeywell

Comments welcomed

Thanks

I've found plumbers tend to pick one make stick with that.. I had one plumber recommend heatmiser, another emberhome.. Having nest installed with new boiler Thursday.. The nest app will be hard to beat... Also nest has a learning algorithm which others don't.. Can't say if it makes it better it worse..

deezell

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Anyone used the "Hub Controller" heating system?

https://www.thehubcontroller.com/

They seemed to have some free offer in The Square in Tallaght yesterday, I was with there for work so didn't have time to check things out.

Just wondering if it was any good and what the catch was with the free offer?

I can't find any reference to it for free in a Google search. It's €249 to buy and self install which puts it right up there price wise, yet there's no mention of HW control, no Opentherm for advanced boilers, no Alexa, Google home , Apple homekit or IFTTT integration. It's a simple device at an advanced price.
It doesn't need a bridge to connect to the router, meaning it uses standard Wi-Fi. Battery powered stats normally use a very lo power radio link to their router hub/ bridge in order to get reasonable life. Nest uses normal WiFi and requires either a small phone style charger or power down the wires from it's heatlink box. This stat uses a battery, but it's rechargeable. How does it stay charged? My guess is it siphons power from the open circuit voltage of the heating relay. When the boiler is off, in a 2 wire system there will be 220v ( or possibly 24v dc) across the contacts. This can be used to power a charging circuit. When the contacts are closed it goes to battery power. As closed contacts means the boiler is firing, this period will only be in short bursts, battery charging resuming when the contacts open. Very clever. I had contemplated bodging something like this for my Tado, if battery life became an issue.

Mr.Crinklewood

deezell wrote: »

I can't find any reference to it for free in a Google search. It's €249 to buy and self install which puts it right up there price wise, yet there's no mention of HW control, no Opentherm for advanced boilers, no Alexa, Google home , Apple homekit or IFTTT integration. It's a simple device at an advanced price.
It doesn't need a bridge to connect to the router, meaning it uses standard Wi-Fi. Battery powered stats normally use a very lo power radio link to their router hub/ bridge in order to get reasonable life. Nest uses normal WiFi and requires either a small phone style charger or power down the wires from it's heatlink box. This stat uses a battery, but it's rechargeable. How does it stay charged? My guess is it siphons power from the open circuit voltage of the heating relay. When the boiler is off, in a 2 wire system there will be 220v ( or possibly 24v dc) across the contacts. This can be used to power a charging circuit. When the contacts are closed it goes to battery power. As closed contacts means the boiler is firing, this period will only be in short bursts, battery charging resuming when the contacts open. Very clever. I had contemplated bodging something like this for my Tado, if battery life became an issue.

Free offer here
@HUBController: We're going to be in The Square #Tallaght all day tomorrow signing up people for a free Hub Controller Smart Thermostat! #SmartThermostat #Dublin #smarthome #energysaving #energyefficient

Make sure to drop by, say hello & sign up! https://www.thehubcontroller.com/trial https://twitter.com/HUBController/status/971805753924378624/photo/1

Think I saw a previous tweet about Alexa functionality

deezell

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Free offer here
@HUBController: We're going to be in The Square #Tallaght all day tomorrow signing up people for a free Hub Controller Smart Thermostat! #SmartThermostat #Dublin #smarthome #energysaving #energyefficient

Make sure to drop by, say hello & sign up! https://www.thehubcontroller.com/trial https://twitter.com/HUBController/status/971805753924378624/photo/1

Think I saw a previous tweet about Alexa functionality

This ties in with the energy companies apparently giving away free systems. It might be levered through the new controller only grants scheme worth €700. It could also be a trial, it doesn't say you get to keep the stat, so you might get fond of it and agree to pay to keep it. I'd be curious to know more. I've never heard of government funded trials for heating products, but anything is possible.
Amazon have a page announcing hubcontroller skills alright.

Fr_Dougal

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Am thinking of getting the Nest installed. Have recently had a new boiler fitted, 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs, and hot water.

Have a couple of questions, can the h/w stay linked to the heating programmer and run on a timed schedule, with the Nests controlling the two heating zones independently?

Can a Nest thermostat be installed to replace one of my existing stats and be run off the existing programmer? Was thinking of doing a trial run with this setup.

If I decide to go the whole hog and install a Nest thermostat to control the h/w, is that another Nest thermostat attached to the cylinder in the hot press? Or is it a different type thermostat?

Thanks!

Lads would anyone be able to help me with these?

deezell

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Am thinking of getting the Nest installed. Have recently had a new boiler fitted, 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs, and hot water.

Have a couple of questions, can the h/w stay linked to the heating programmer and run on a timed schedule, with the Nests controlling the two heating zones independently?

Can a Nest thermostat be installed to replace one of my existing stats and be run off the existing programmer? Was thinking of doing a trial run with this setup.

If I decide to go the whole hog and install a Nest thermostat to control the h/w, is that another Nest thermostat attached to the cylinder in the hot press? Or is it a different type thermostat?

Thanks!

HW can stay on the existing timer, but each nest stat has a relay box, the heatlink, with 2 relays which can control timing for HW and CH, so you might as well use it.Temperature of the HW will be controlled by an ordinary cylinder stat if fitted. The nest stat itself controls timing and temperature of its zone.
When you replace your existing stat with a nest, you set your existing zone timer to Continually On as the nest now takes over timing.
You will need a second Nest stat for the second CH zone, though you could leave the original timer and stat for this until later .
As I said the HW timing relay comes within the Nest heatlink box, no need to buy anything extra. If you currently have an ordinary mechanical cylinder stat, this remains and is wired in series with the heatlink HW relay. If your current system had no cylinder stat then HW control is just timed, but you can install a mechanical stat on the cylinder, about €15 worth. If you choose to wire the heatlink HW relay in, the the old HW timer is set to Continually on, same as the zones.

Fr_Dougal

deezell wrote: »

HW can stay on the existing timer, but each nest stat has a relay box, the heatlink, with 2 relays which can control timing for HW and CH, so you might as well use it.Temperature of the HW will be controlled by an ordinary cylinder stat if fitted. The nest stat itself controls timing and temperature of its zone.
When you replace your existing stat with a nest, you set your existing zone timer to Continually On as the nest now takes over timing.
You will need a second Nest stat for the second CH zone, though you could leave the original timer and stat for this until later .
As I said the HW timing relay comes within the Nest heatlink box, no need to buy anything extra. If you currently have an ordinary mechanical cylinder stat, this remains and is wired in series with the heatlink HW relay. If your current system had no cylinder stat then HW control is just timed, but you can install a mechanical stat on the cylinder, about €15 worth. If you choose to wire the heatlink HW relay in, the the old HW timer is set to Continually on, same as the zones.

Do I have to use the Heatlink relay/box, or can I just swap the old stat for the Nest stat?

deezell

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Do I have to use the Heatlink relay/box, or can I just swap the old stat for the Nest stat?

No, The nest Stat does not have any high voltage relay contacts internally. It is just the interface to the heatlink relay box, connecting to it either wirelessly using a special point to point wireless protocol (not your home WiFi), or via low voltage signal pair of wired contacts, which also supply power to the Nest from the Heatlink box. This last method of wiring can reuse the pair of wires from your old stat if they can be traced back to the boiler. These are normally fed from the mains. When these are cut at the boiler end and connected to the relay contacts of the Heatlink box, the redundant pair going back to the old stat can be re-used to connect the signalling and low voltage power back to the Nest, if you wall mount it in place of the old Stat. The nest differs in this respect from most other smart stats in that it does not contain a relay, and does not allow the mains voltage near is connectors, thus avoiding disasters.
Nonetheless, if you chose the wired option I described you must be certain the wire pair from the stat is completely isolated from the mains. With many installations only a single wire goes from the stat to the boiler, carrying switched live to call for heat. This live in turn can arrive at the stat from a different location than the boiler, maybe a timer switch or programmer which is located elsewhere. If you study the Nest installation instructions you will see this installation option.

As a footnote the Nest for the American market was designed to directly replace low voltage/current wall stats as these are common in American gas boiler installations, so these Nests don't have a Heatlink box. These Nests are not compatible with European boiler switching for the most part.

randombar

Any recommendations for a HW digital stat? Would be great to track this as well as upstairs/downstairs heat.

deezell

GaryCocs wrote: »

Any recommendations for a HW digital stat? Would be great to track this as well as upstairs/downstairs heat.

The only smart home stat system that I'm aware of that has smart monitoring of HW temperature as well as timing is the Honeywell EVOhome system, which consists of a wireless stat and receiver. You would have to have the Evohome controller to add this on to. It wort intergrate with other brands.
HW water temperature is generally set and forget, a simple mechanical stat on the cylinder will suffice to limit the temperature, and most smart stats can control the timing of the HW if required. There's no particular reason that you might want to control the temperature of your stored HW dynamically.
If your HW is delivered directly from a combi boiler (gas or oil) the HW temperature is controlled by the settings in the boiler. You would set a max of maybe 65' to avoid scalding. If the controller integral to the boiler has an OpenTherm interface, a digital serial connection, the some smart stats can control the boiler via this interface, and have programmable control of boiler firing and HW temperature. Tado and Nest have OpenTherm serial contacts, and a list of compatible boilers can be found on their support sites.

deezell

In response to a private post regarding the connection of a Nest for separate HW and HW/CH operation, I'm posting this wiring diagram for the benefit of anyone who finds themselves in this situation, and where the installer says that it is not possible to have HW only without the heating being on at the same time. In this instance the circulation pump is integral to the boiler, CH is turned on by an existing single 2 port motorised valve, and HW will always be on when the boiler fires, regardless of whether the firing is triggered by either the HW timer in the Nest or the CH timer. Using the relay built into the 2 port valve means that the Nest call for HW (dashed red) only fires the boiler but does not actuate the valve. This can only happen when the Nest call for CH (solid orange) opens the valve, whose relay the connects live to the Boiler call (dashed red). The heatlink box is connected wirelessly to the Nest stat, but can be wired to the heatlink box using connectors T1 and T2, which will also power the Nest stat