Off Topic Thread 4.0

thomond2006 wrote: »

Pro gun-control activists badly need to reference Dunblane more. Within a year very strict laws were passed in mainland UK and there's been no 'school shooting' since.

While it's not nearly the same culture/conditions etc. in the US, it is an example of a 'federal' government fixing the problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

That stuff is brought up all the time. And summarily shot down with bogus studies or just totally ignored. Every last bit of objective evidence on the matter proves beyond doubt that gun control works. But too many people don't want to hear it and refuse to believe it.

Bazzo wrote: »

If I can interrupt the politics for a moment:

Does anyone know a good spot to get pissed enjoy a pint or two and watch the rugby in Manchester? Big screen preferably but not necessary if there are enough screens to be able to easily see it anyway.

Watched it in the Tib Street Tavern. Was alright, r'kid.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Pro gun-control activists badly need to reference Dunblane more. Within a year very strict laws were passed in mainland UK and there's been no 'school shooting' since.

While it's not nearly the same culture/conditions etc. in the US, it is an example of a 'federal' government fixing the problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

To be fair Dunblane and Port Arthur do get brought up quite a bit. But they're only brought up by people who actually want to hear about how a federal gun ban and buyback absolutely can work.

The truth is that these people do not care that much about the lives of the people who are dying. They care far more about their own lives and the lives of their close friends and family. The media indulge them in this by inflating the value of guns to their lives and deflating any potential benefits of the obvious course of action. It's extremely effective, we'll see similar tactics used here over the coming months.

Bazzo

If I can interrupt the politics for a moment:

Does anyone know a good spot to get pissed enjoy a pint or two and watch the rugby in Manchester? Big screen preferably but not necessary if there are enough screens to be able to easily see it anyway.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Pro gun-control activists badly need to reference Dunblane more.
No 'school shooting' in the UK since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

There was a similar mass shooting in Australia shortly after Dunblane. Aus changed their gun laws and again, there hasn't been a similar mass shooting since.

thomond2006

Pro gun-control activists badly need to reference Dunblane more. Within a year very strict laws were passed in mainland UK and there's been no 'school shooting' since.

While it's not nearly the same culture/conditions etc. in the US, it is an example of a 'federal' government fixing the problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

Deleted User wrote: »

The only thing that shields us from a similar fate is the standard of our education.

And the size of our country. It's hard to get away with being such a total dick in a small country. Your support will be limited. In a large country your support will be numerically larger and therefore will empower the behaviour.

Buer wrote: »

The reaction to Obama was the one that was highlighted by the media in terms of protests against his policies and liberal approaches.

But it wasn't borne out in the elections. The Democrats won the senate and congress elections in 2008 and 2010, controlling both houses and then won the senate again in the first election of his second term. It was only in the final 2 years of his 8 year tenure that the public opinion slipped away from him and the electorate revolted somewhat which is often to be expected following 8 years of the same administration.

I agree that the USA is in a bad way currently. It's near impossible to get 50 separate entities on the same page and there will never be anything close to resembling large scale agreement on major policies due to vested interests. But I do think things will very slowly change. They won't do so at the rate of other countries and that acccentuates the social issues in America but I do think they'll change.

I can't see how they can change enough. The whole system seems to me to be set up to ensure that the electorate are so busy fighting amongst themselves that the "ruling classes" can just go ahead and do their thing. How many visionaries have we seen in American politics in the last 10-20 years? How many visionaries in American public life? Where is the next Martin Luther King for example? And what would happen to someone like him now?

The reaction in Florida among large section of the population is commendable, but what is it achieving? We have conservatives boasting about how the adults are beating the children when that bill was rejected the other day. For all intents and purposes saying "ha-ha you still have to face gun violence in school". We have the top man in the country, the so-called leader of the free world, calling for more guns in a place where guns have done nothing but kill innocent children. This isn't the first time this stuff has happened either. It happened during Obamas tenure. What changed then?

I keep going back to it, but if as a country they refuse to implement change to prevent children being shot and killed in their classrooms then I can see no hope for their country at all. This should be the very thing that initiates changes. It's happened repeatedly and still nothing has changed. It doesn't get more f-ed up than that IMO. And if you can't react to something that f-ed up, you're doomed.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How would you propose convincing Texas or Alabama's state senators to pass laws that would mandate gun registration?

Canada's example shows how slow and unwieldy a federal solution can be?! It shows that a federal solution can be achieved at a cost of a fraction of a percent of the nation's GDP...

I'm just so happy with the correct use of apostrophes.

The Canadian system started in 1995 and took until 2012 to be fully implemented except it wasn't, since they dropped the requirement for regsitration of long guns in that year. Seventeen years for half a solution? And there was a row with Quebec which followed that and which ended up in the Supreme Court. So now, semi-auto rifles with a barrel length greater than 18½" are not restricted and don't require registration.

Edit: On Texas and Alabama and any other states that resist, you apply a federal solution once the majority of states have implemented it. If you get states to control cross state transport of firearms, it becomes only a problem in the recalcitrant states themselves.

thomond2006

Teferi wrote: »

The problem is the voting system - first past the post encourages a two party system, which in effect means you get people cheering on their side like a sports team with absolutely no objectivity. This problem is reinforced by a partisan media, constantly echoing what their readers and viewers want to hear.

Excellent analogy!

Teferi

The problem is the voting system - first past the post encourages a two party system, which in effect means you get people cheering on their side like a sports team with absolutely no objectivity. This problem is reinforced by a partisan media, constantly echoing what their readers and viewers want to hear.

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

.

At least there was some humour in Trump carrying a cue card with the bullet points for him to try and ask of the survivors. If people can't understand how out of touch he is with this incident after seeing that, there's no hope for them.

If you have to carry a cue card reminding you to say “I hear you”, then clearly you don’t.

mfceiling wrote: »

Guns in schools. Just think about that.

There was a brilliant tweet (not sure if it's an old joke) a few days ago which was along the lines of:

'Whenever I hear someone say "The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" I think, here is someone who wants to sell two guns"

Buer wrote: »

The reaction to Obama was the one that was highlighted by the media in terms of protests against his policies and liberal approaches.

But it wasn't borne out in the elections. The Democrats won the senate and congress elections in 2008 and 2010, controlling both houses and then won the senate again in the first election of his second term. It was only in the final 2 years of his 8 year tenure that the public opinion slipped away from him and the electorate revolted somewhat which is often to be expected following 8 years of the same administration.

I agree that the USA is in a bad way currently. It's near impossible to get 50 separate entities on the same page and there will never be anything close to resembling large scale agreement on major policies due to vested interests. But I do think things will very slowly change. They won't do so at the rate of other countries and that acccentuates the social issues in America but I do think they'll change.

I dunno. Reagan and both Bush's took climate change seriously and pushed for reform whereas now words like 'evidenced based' are being banned from Scientific institutions. Now some conservatives believe in climate change but simply believe that America should force others to do the work so they don't have to, but there is also a core of the party and support that are happy to just say it doesn't exists.

That's a massive step back in two generations and that's just one example of many others.

30% of that country are not equipped to live in the modernising world and I worry what they are prepared to do to maintain the status quo. A large number of politicians have identified that this 30% just want to be 'right' as someone else put it and can be completely manipulated as a result of that.

There is a realistic possibility that there will be a serious attempt to put armed forces in schools. I'm already at a point where I wouldn't consider living in America due to health care and gun crime amongst other issues, but if they did put weapons in schools I would view them as stepping away from first world status as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know what I'd call them then, they would be sacrificing themselves at the alter of greed and fear.

mfceiling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Exactly. Those kids got their answer from the NRA via Trump yesterday.

America is going to arm their teachers and station veterans in school corridors.

Guns in schools. Just think about that.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno, I think their reaction to the Obama administration shows why Molloy might be right. At the end of the day, a lot of what we read doesn't effect day to day life in America but there is a growing % of the country getting swept up in the hate and partisanship which is going to destabilise them in a serious way in the coming decade.

The reaction to Obama was the one that was highlighted by the media in terms of protests against his policies and liberal approaches.

But it wasn't borne out in the elections. The Democrats won the senate and congress elections in 2008 and 2010, controlling both houses and then won the senate again in the first election of his second term. It was only in the final 2 years of his 8 year tenure that the public opinion slipped away from him and the electorate revolted somewhat which is often to be expected following 8 years of the same administration.

I agree that the USA is in a bad way currently. It's near impossible to get 50 separate entities on the same page and there will never be anything close to resembling large scale agreement on major policies due to vested interests. But I do think things will very slowly change. They won't do so at the rate of other countries and that acccentuates the social issues in America but I do think they'll change.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Shame on you.

I just think that if states start to implement a first step like firearms registration and controls on carrying firearms across their state lines, that could well give the federal government the basis to push for that to happen on a federal level. But it's also a matter of resources. The Canadan example shows how slow and unwieldy a federal solution can be,

How would you propose convincing Texas or Alabama's state senators to pass laws that would mandate gun registration?

Canada's example shows how slow and unwieldy a federal solution can be?! It shows that a federal solution can be achieved at a cost of a fraction of a percent of the nation's GDP...

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In America all politics is very much not local. Far, far more so since Citizen's United.

Shame on you.

I just think that if states start to implement a first step like firearms registration and controls on carrying firearms across their state lines, that could well give the federal government the basis to push for that to happen on a federal level. But it's also a matter of resources. The Canadan example shows how slow and unwieldy a federal solution can be,

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In America all politics is very much not local. Far, far more so since Citizen's United.

Exactly. Those kids got their answer from the NRA via Trump yesterday.

America is going to arm their teachers and station veterans in school corridors.

Buer wrote: »

I don't know what the solution is but I do think it's possible for them to get back on track. 10 years ago, Obama was elected and the world believed that the USA had joined the modern age and was ready to be at the forefront of the western world once more. I don't think that optimism or hope will disappear based on one presidential administration.

I dunno, I think their reaction to the Obama administration shows why Molloy might be right. At the end of the day, a lot of what we read doesn't effect day to day life in America but there is a growing % of the country getting swept up in the hate and partisanship which is going to destabilise them in a serious way in the coming decade.

I actually think Obama broke much of conservative America. They couldn't handle the mere idea of him, let alone the reality of him and when the right wing media went full on propaganda against him they were perfectly happy to sign up without questioning anything, no matter how absurd or unproven.

It was this casual departure from anything resembling the truth that set the climate for Trump and the current GOP and now EVERYONE is doubling down. Even if there is a flip towards Democrats in 2018 / 2020 I can only see the level of partisanship escalating.

It's no better in the UK. The right wing media as of late are all in on Corybn being a communist sympathiser and even the intelligence services are having to come out and debunk the lies. Yet still Theresa May is happy to reap benefit from a type of discourse she would never publicly condone, by making a joke about how Corbyn likes Cheques and 'Czech's' in the commons leaders questions.

The only thing that shields us from a similar fate is the standard of our education.

prawnsambo wrote: »

All politics is local. Anything imposed at a federal level will be resisted to the last drop of blood. (I may be exaggerating slightly here). But if you look at what those kids in Florida have started, they've brought it to the state legislature and that's the kind of pressure that can make local and state politicians start to worry about their seats. The issue with sanctuary cities and states is an example of how protracted a battle between local and federal government can be.

In America all politics is very much not local. Far, far more so since Citizen's United.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't see how it could even be considered remotely achievable, politically, to try to convince 50 small governments to individually bring in gun registration instead of convincing 2 federal bodies.

All politics is local. Anything imposed at a federal level will be resisted to the last drop of blood. (I may be exaggerating slightly here). But if you look at what those kids in Florida have started, they've brought it to the state legislature and that's the kind of pressure that can make local and state politicians start to worry about their seats. The issue with sanctuary cities and states is an example of how protracted a battle between local and federal government can be.

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm just thinking politically. Anything to do with the federal government will be resisted strenuously because it's 'the man'. Buy back is a couple of steps down the road, because you actually have to know what your base line is and without that, you can't measure success or failure.

So imo, registration at state level would be the first step.

I don't see how it could even be considered remotely achievable, politically, to try to convince 50 small governments to individually bring in gun registration instead of convincing 2 federal bodies.

molloyjh wrote: »

For me it isn't based on Trump alone. Even when Obama was there we saw a lot of the issues we're seeing now. Sure how many people in the States were convinced the guy was Muslim? Or wasn't even American? The Republicans had control of the houses for most of his tenure too didn't they?

The whole set up over there is massively imbalanced. To fix the issues you need leadership from the top down. Even with a President like Obama, what really changed? Are they likely to get a more progressive person in that role at any point? And will that person get the support of the Houses to enact real change?

Change itself won't just happen, it needs to be driven. The people won't drive it because the education system and the media have ensured they are too busy fighting with themselves. And if the people as a whole won't drive change then the politicians never will. If someone outside that sphere makes an effort to they have to face a media that will ensure they fail.

If kids getting killed in school on a semi-regular basis isn't enough to force change, I honestly have no idea what is.

I agree with you molloy. I was there last year and it's incredible how much bullsh1t they eat. Marketing has turned into downright lies and because of the population size, it doesn't matter how many lies you tell, you'll always sell your product. There are no real controls because that's 'socialist' and 'big government' and must be resisted. There's an article in The Guardian currently about the state of the meat industry there. 15% of the population annually suffers from food-borne illness. That's a frankly shocking statistic for a first world economy.

It kind of says it all when you walk into a supermarket and see a section devoted to 'real meat'. :eek:

Buer wrote: »

I believe there's hope for America. There is a lot of good there and a lot of earnest, genuine people who want what's best. But it gets lost in such a massive melting pot of money and greed where the biggest voices trump the masses.

I spent the last week in NY and it's hard not to be touched by how much they wear their hearts on thier sleeves. It's the best and worst of them as it makes them as irrational as it does genuine. They're a nation of hearts ruling heads.

But they do have some god awful issues and priorities that are extremely backwards. My sister in law went into a bar and asked if she could buy cigarettes there. The bar man laughed incredulously and told her that she can't buy cigarettes in a bar. When asked if there was somewhere she could purchase them nearby he told her, without a hint or irony, that there's a pharmacy across the street that sells them.

I don't know what the solution is but I do think it's possible for them to get back on track. 10 years ago, Obama was elected and the world believed that the USA had joined the modern age and was ready to be at the forefront of the western world once more. I don't think that optimism or hope will disappear based on one presidential administration.

For me it isn't based on Trump alone. Even when Obama was there we saw a lot of the issues we're seeing now. Sure how many people in the States were convinced the guy was Muslim? Or wasn't even American? The Republicans had control of the houses for most of his tenure too didn't they?

The whole set up over there is massively imbalanced. To fix the issues you need leadership from the top down. Even with a President like Obama, what really changed? Are they likely to get a more progressive person in that role at any point? And will that person get the support of the Houses to enact real change?

Change itself won't just happen, it needs to be driven. The people won't drive it because the education system and the media have ensured they are too busy fighting with themselves. And if the people as a whole won't drive change then the politicians never will. If someone outside that sphere makes an effort to they have to face a media that will ensure they fail.

If kids getting killed in school on a semi-regular basis isn't enough to force change, I honestly have no idea what is.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm convinced that America is lost. It's just too far gone and too much work is needed to rectify what is a completely failing system. Things have been getting progressively worse, particularly on the Republican side, for some time. I mean we all laughed at Bush Jnr, but I'm sure we'd all agree he was leagues ahead of this clown.

I believe there's hope for America. There is a lot of good there and a lot of earnest, genuine people who want what's best. But it gets lost in such a massive melting pot of money and greed where the biggest voices trump the masses.

I spent the last week in NY and it's hard not to be touched by how much they wear their hearts on thier sleeves. It's the best and worst of them as it makes them as irrational as it does genuine. They're a nation of hearts ruling heads.

But they do have some god awful issues and priorities that are extremely backwards. My sister in law went into a bar and asked if she could buy cigarettes there. The bar man laughed incredulously and told her that she can't buy cigarettes in a bar. When asked if there was somewhere she could purchase them nearby he told her, without a hint or irony, that there's a pharmacy across the street that sells them.

I don't know what the solution is but I do think it's possible for them to get back on track. 10 years ago, Obama was elected and the world believed that the USA had joined the modern age and was ready to be at the forefront of the western world once more. I don't think that optimism or hope will disappear based on one presidential administration.

b.gud wrote: »

A feicin Brown Thomas voucher! Are you feicin serious we're paying for a feicin wedding and you think to yourself, "do you know what they would really love, a voucher! Now where should I get it for somewhere that they can really use, I know Brown Thomas they'll get tonnes of use out of that."

I'm going to be getting seriously p*ssed off over the next few weeks at the s**t stuff people give us :mad:

A BT voucher can come in handy. They've a genuinely decent home ware section. We got a Dyson and a KitchenAid in there in part thanks to a voucher. And they have been 2 really good purchases. A functional gadget and a think to make food with. What more could you want!?

Buer wrote: »

If people can't understand how out of touch he is with this incident after seeing that, there's no hope for them.

I'm convinced that America is lost. It's just too far gone and too much work is needed to rectify what is a completely failing system. Things have been getting progressively worse, particularly on the Republican side, for some time. I mean we all laughed at Bush Jnr, but I'm sure we'd all agree he was leagues ahead of this clown.

The media set up there, which has become a series of reputable outlets fighting more and more against news that is at best completely partisan and increasingly just completely fabricated, is dooming them to a situation where rational and reasonable discussion is pretty much impossible. People are taking sides and entrenching themselves further and further. And if you can't discuss your points of difference and work maturely to find common ground then you're never going to be able to dig yourself out of any hole you find yourself in. Education is a mess, ignorance is frighteningly widespread and too many people over there have no interest in being anything other than "right".

Where does a solution to all of this come from or start? How do you deal with uneducated and entrenched opinions held by millions when you can't trust your education system or your media?

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

I think one from our five competitors is actually born and raised Irish. One other was born here but grew up elsewhere. The others are all involved through ancestry. The lad who was born and grew up here actually played for Leinster Youths.

Yeah, I see now he took up skiing seriously when 21 and moved to Austria. That's pretty impressive to make the olympics after a fairly late start.

Buer wrote: »

The suggestion is insane. They've got a group of people who are paid poorly for the pleasure of trying to educate the next generation. Now they want to ask those people to be prepared to shoot a kid dead if they are called upon to do so.

Can they actually imagine the fall out of this? There would be multiple accidental shootings by inadequately trained teachers who are going to take an approach of shoot first, question later in the same manner some of the police force do.

And as the teachers themselves have said: "Do you want to be holding a firearm when the SWAT team burst in?" :eek:

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think there might be some pathetic indoor dry slope somewhere. But basically no. I presume they are either not Irish or moved abroad to train/live at a young age.

I think one from our five competitors is actually born and raised Irish. One other was born here but grew up elsewhere. The others are all involved through ancestry. The lad who was born and grew up here actually played for Leinster Youths.

To be fair, he is far from the first to suggest that. So while he remains dumb, he has plenty of company.

The suggestion is insane. They've got a group of people who are paid poorly for the pleasure of trying to educate the next generation. Now they want to ask those people to be prepared to shoot a kid dead if they are called upon to do so.

Can they actually imagine the fall out of this? There would be multiple accidental shootings by inadequately trained teachers who are going to take an approach of shoot first, question later in the same manner some of the police force do.

At least there was some humour in Trump carrying a cue card with the bullet points for him to try and ask of the survivors. If people can't understand how out of touch he is with this incident after seeing that, there's no hope for them.