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Child Item

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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uptherebels

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

So it's a case of leave your conscience at the door??

Now whose deluded?

if it affects their ability to do what is in their patients best interests then yes.

I wouldnt say im deluded just i expect my medical professionals to be professional

uck51js9zml2yt

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Here's a picture of an actual 12 week.old baby that was miscarried, quite different to the one you posted

WARNING

Graphic image of a miscarried baby in link below.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=12+week+old+fetus&dcr=0&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin4unWh7jZAhUIJMAKHYpUBFgQ_AUICSgB&biw=360&bih=616&dpr=3#imgrc=i8lGzS1vXM29pM:

Nope doesnt look like an orange... definitely a human !

david75

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

So it's a case of leave your conscience at the door??

Now whose deluded?

Acting on conscience in any matter is utterly stupid and reductive.

If I had a shop and refused to sell to catholics or muslims because I have a sincerely held belief that they were both intrinsically evil and disordered, I’d be well within my rights in terms of belief but I’d be keel hauled in the media and the courts.
Then we go to medicine.
Sincerely held beliefs have no place whatsoever in medicine.

Many families in the Mormon faith have allowed their own children die because organ transplant and blood donation is strictly against their sincerely held beliefs.

So where are you on that? you really want to bring sincerely held beliefs and faith into this with regards doctors?

uck51js9zml2yt

uptherebels wrote: »

if it affects their ability to do what is in their patients best interests then yes.

I wouldnt say im deluded just i expect my medical professionals to be professional

And I'm sure the Nazi soldiers left their consciences at the door of the camps before they slaughtered millions. Just look where that got us. The defence of "just following orders" didn't stand up

J C

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Nope

I find them ridiculous and pointless in your CONSTANT lame attempts to use emotional blackmail in this thread.

There is no emotional blackmail ... just anatomically correct images of 12 week old unborn children ... the fact that you react by scoffing at there images show that you too can see the undoubted humanity of these little children.

Bob_Marley

david75 wrote: »

Again a display of how disconnected certain factions are from reality and medical science.

Such amazing lighting and perfect composition.

How in the world did they do it??

Strange how does every pregnant woman in the World ends up with a scratchy black and white 2D screengrab from an ultrasound yet pro life campaign can afford such wonderful nat geo quality pics of the feotus in utero.

Oh wait. The pic above is actually a computer generated image!!??? digital lies!!

Lies!!!

I think I'll take getty images word over it, one of the largest photo library's in the world, before I take yours.

Timberrrrrrrr

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

Nope doesnt look like an orange... definitely a human !

Also looks nothing like the cartoons that various posters have been spamming the thread with either.

Timberrrrrrrr

J C wrote: »

There is no emotional blackmail ... just anatomically correct images of 12 week old unborn children ... the fact that you react by scoffing at there images show that you too can see the undoubted humanity of these little children.

See my post of an actuall 12 week old fetus that was miscarried. Looks nothing like the lame cartoons that you have posted.

Bob_Marley

david75 wrote: »

Acting on conscience in any matter is utterly stupid and reductive.

So if your conscience told you not to take someone's life it would be utterly stupid and reductive to follow that ? Hmmmm

recedite

Red C's recruitment methods for the membership of the Citizens Assembly appear not to be as scientific as first thought.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/recruiter-for-citizens-assembly-suspended-after-replacement-members-enlisted-through-personal-contacts-and-not-randomly-36629881.html

7 members were identified as potential candidates “through friends and family

J C

pilly wrote: »

My reason is I'm a Christian and I have free will.

... but you cannot claim to be acting as a Christian, if you use your free will for evil.

What is being laid before us on the repeal of the 8th is the choice of life and death ... and as a Christian, you should choose life.

NuMarvel

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Not at all

https://www.gettyimages.ie/search/stack/624894889

Ironically, the captions for the pictures on that page use the term fetus, not unborn child.

Bob_Marley

recedite wrote: »

Red C's recruitment methods for the membership of the Citizens Assembly appear not to be as scientific as first thought.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/recruiter-for-citizens-assembly-suspended-after-replacement-members-enlisted-through-personal-contacts-and-not-randomly-36629881.html

Pretty much confirms what we suspected.

Watch this one be hushed up and glossed over as well. Only 16 counties in Ireland were represented by the Citizens Assembly as well. That's what happens when you have an un-democratically chosen, un-elected assembly put together by a private PR firm.

david75

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So if your conscience told you not to take someone's life it would be utterly stupid and reductive to follow that ? Hmmmm

I’ll ask again. Cos I know you’re totally unable to answer

Acting on conscience in any matter is utterly stupid and reductive.

If I had a shop and refused to sell to catholics or muslims because I have a sincerely held belief that they were both intrinsically evil and disordered, I’d be well within my rights in terms of belief but I’d be keel hauled in the media and the courts.
Then we go to medicine.
Sincerely held beliefs have no place whatsoever in medicine.

Many families in the Mormon faith have allowed their own children die because organ transplant and blood donation is strictly against their sincerely held beliefs.

So where are you on that? you really want to bring sincerely held beliefs and faith into this with regards doctors?

Bob_Marley

NuMarvel wrote: »

Ironically, the captions for the pictures on that page use the term fetus, not unborn child.

A fetus is an unborn child and a human life. Even the pro abortion leader Varadkar has corrected people on that. And in addition to the article below, you can listen to the recent interview with him on RTE radio, where he says when talking about abortion, a fetus and unborn child are the one and the same.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dont-use-foetus-when-you-mean-baby-varadkar-35234768.html

So you can use the term fetus all day long, but no one is going to be fooled that it's not a human life / baby /unborn child.

david75

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Watch this one be hushed up and glossed over as well. Only 16 counties in Ireland were represented by the Citizens Assembly as well. That's what happens when you have an un-democratically chosen, un-elected assembly put together by a private PR firm.

Grasping at straws. Red c only use population centres that have a broad range of age and economic backgrounds. Its called demographics.

Look it up.

Jesus you guys are totally clueless aren’t you? Getting desperate obviously too.

uptherebels

J C wrote: »

Nobody should be forced or discriminated against for acting in accordance with their conscience.

I didn't misrepresent you ... I quoted you exactly.

and yet you made it solely about abortions when i said all medical procedures.

As for a doctors conscience preventing them providing medical care to their patients,i think you said it best

J C wrote: »

What is best for me isn't always best for others ... and when it isn't ... there ends my right to choose what is best for me

funny how you don't hold your side to the same standard

Nick Park

david75 wrote: »

Many families in the Mormon faith have allowed their own children die because organ transplant and blood donation is strictly against their sincerely held beliefs.

Actually, Mormons haven't done any such thing.

You've got yourself all confused again.

Bob_Marley

david75 wrote: »

Then we go to medicine.
Sincerely held beliefs have no place whatsoever in medicine.

Does that include when a Doctor sincerely believes it's her or his duty to save a life ?

david75

Nick Park wrote: »

Actually, Mormons haven't done any such thing.

You've got yourself all confused again.

Enlighten us oh dear leader

uptherebels

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

And I'm sure the Nazi soldiers left their consciences at the door of the camps before they slaughtered millions. Just look where that got us. The defence of "just following orders" didn't stand up

yes because doctors providing medical care = nazis:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Bob_Marley

david75 wrote: »

Grasping at straws. Red c only use population centres that have a broad range of age and economic backgrounds. Its called demographics.

Look it up.

Jesus you guys are totally clueless aren’t you? Getting desperate obviously too.

So you think it's ok in a democracy to only represent population centers in certain counties ? So how was the list of 16 counties arrived at ?

J C

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Here's a picture of an actual 12 week.old baby that was miscarried, quite different to the one you posted

WARNING

Graphic image of a miscarried baby in link below.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=12+week+old+fetus&dcr=0&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin4unWh7jZAhUIJMAKHYpUBFgQ_AUICSgB&biw=360&bih=616&dpr=3#imgrc=i8lGzS1vXM29pM:

Here is an actual miscarried 12 week old unborn child:-

Warning graphic image of a dead unborn child

https://www.humpath.com/IMG/jpg_fetus_12w_formalin_12_2.jpg

... and it is anatomically identical to this image:-

Delirium

david75 wrote: »

Enlighten us oh dear leader

You're confusing Mormons with Jehovah's Witnesses.

end of the road

david75 wrote: »

Some of the absolute nonsense and fear mongering you see here and elsewhere would have you believe women want to be able to put an axe in its head the moment it’s born if it suits them. Just nonsense.

Late term abortions only happen when women can’t have access to medical care and have to save to get away to England. That can often lead to feotus becoming baby.

So in effect our current law is actually shockingly inhumane and cruel on the mother and inutero occupant.

Yet here’s people looking to maintain that law. Insane.

no fear mongering has taken place on the pro-life side. the pro-life side have given some possibilities and potentials, based on the reality that the abortion issue is long term rather then short term. one has to think of the long term rather then the short term.
our laws in relation to abortion are only inhumain and cruel for those who need medical abortions, they are not inhumain or cruel toards those who want abortion on demand for lifestyle, convenience or contraceptive reasons. the law we have makes it some bit difficult to procure abortion, and is likely deterring and stoping some from procuring it. no law is 100% effective but if it stops a small few abortions from happening, then it's worth it.

david75 wrote: »

Cartoons aren’t an argument JC. If you want to be taken seriously anyways.

It’ll be flat earth cartoons next.

pictures showing reality are an argument. fact can't be argued against. the pictures show 2 human beings at different stages of development, human beings which some wish to dehumanise.

Delirium wrote: »

Not an answer to my question.

You're suggesting that the limit with be revised upwards.

Working with that premise, what makes you think that women will wait later into the pregnancy because of the new limit? Why wouldn't they just continue to use abortion pills/ have abortions before 12 weeks?

Do you have an actual reason that you communicate or are you attempting to scaremonger those who may be okay with abortions <12 weeks?

for me it's about covering all possibilities however remote they may be. we cannot rule out the time limit being revised upwards in the aim of removing any and all reasons for women having to travel to the uk, should the 8th be repealed. it's important in my view that everything in relation to abortion is put forward because should the 8th be repealed, that will be the last opportunity to stop it from being introduced.

J C

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So you think it's ok in a democracy to only represent population centers in certain counties ? So how was the list of 16 counties arrived at ?

The only way to choose a representative assembly by Sortition ... is by an independently monitored and publicly held lottery based on the electoral register.

david75

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So you think it's ok in a democracy to only represent population centers in certain counties ? So how was the list of 16 counties arrived at ?

Because they have the broadest range of ages and incomes.

If I go to rural Leitrim I’m only going to encounter 50+ kid income level farmer not well educated and not well travelled or experienced.

If I go to cork or Galway I’m going to find a range of lifestyles and educations and incomes and can then compile an accurate poll

You clearly don’t have the vaguest notion on how polling works sweetie. Don’t go there until you’ve read up on it even a little bit.

NuMarvel

Bob_Marley wrote: »

A fetus is an unborn child and a human life. Even the pro abortion leader Varadkar has corrected people on that. And in addition to the article below, you can listen to the recent interview with him on RTE radio, where he says when talking about abortion, a fetus and unborn child are the one and the same.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dont-use-foetus-when-you-mean-baby-varadkar-35234768.html

So you can use the term fetus all day long, but no one is going to be fooled that it's not a human life / baby /unborn child.

Personally, I use the phrase unborn, because it's what's in the 8th that you think we should keep. That way anti-repealers can't use faux outrage to distract from the discussion.

I just thought it was interesting that even though you cited Getty Images, you specifically didn't use the term they used. Most likely because it didn't suit your agenda.

Bob_Marley

Nick Park wrote: »

Actually, Mormons haven't done any such thing.

You've got yourself all confused again.

Nick , breaking news - I think you'll be interested in this

A spokeswoman for RED C Research and Marketing, which is responsible for recruiting members of the Assembly, said the seven members were identified as potential candidates “through friends and family of the recruiter.”

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/recruiter-for-citizens-assembly-suspended-after-replacement-members-enlisted-through-personal-contacts-and-not-randomly-36629881.html

uptherebels

J C wrote: »

Here is an actual miscarried 12 week old unborn child:-
Warning graphic image of a dead unborn child
https://www.humpath.com/IMG/jpg_fetus_12w_formalin_12_2.jpg

... and it is anatomically identical to this image:-
http://www.oocities.org/medipedia/9572.jpg

exactly the same apart from the seperated fingers and toes, better developed facial features, lack of translucent skin and the fact it was made to look like its sucking its thumb.

Why not use the actual image from now on?