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Child Item

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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Delirium

J C wrote: »

The announced 12 week limit is only for abortion on demand.
Undoubtedly, the limit will be set much higher than this, from the start for defined cases .

The point I'm making is that abortion pills are both dangerous and illegal ... and killing a 12 week old unborn child on demand is just as wrong as killing a 20 week old unborn child.

But it's still not answering the question.

Why would women en-masse delay having abortions until late in the pregnancy in preference to the abortion pill?

I'm only asking as you're repeating the same statement over-and-over by not explaining what your concern is about the limit being raised.

Timberrrrrrrr

J C wrote: »

... whether it is 20 weeks or 12 weeks it's just as horriffic.

Here is a 12 week old unborn child :-

8
... and here is a 20 week old unborn child:-

There is no substantive diffference between the obvious Humanity of either.

Ah would you stop with the cartoons already!

J C

david75 wrote: »

Ehhh couple of world wars and hundreds of different conflicts globally costing millions of lives in the last 100 years alone call lie to that.

Did you know that from all the way back to preChristian and Early Christian Ireland abortion was as common as to be unremarked upon? Right up until the foundation of the state infact.
Do you know how and why that changed?

Doesn't alter the fact that we are instinctually revolted by the killing of other Human Beings.

... and abortion is now on such a scale that it likely surpasses all of the other deliberate killings that have ever happened over the past 2,000 years.

... it is the new 'Holocaust' ... and the new world wide 'warfare' ... and it happens in the one place that a child should be most secure ... in her mother's womb.

... and the prime statute law on abortion dates from 1860 ... which pre-dates the foundation of the state by a long shot.

david75

J C wrote: »

The announced 12 week limit is only for abortion on demand.
Undoubtedly, the limit will be set much higher than this, from the start for defined cases .

The point I'm making is that abortion pills are both dangerous and illegal ... and killing a 12 week old unborn child on demand is just as wrong as killing a 20 week old unborn child.

Can you point me to any similar change a government has made since the foundation of the state?
Do you not remember the x case? Or savita?

Our government now or in future will never legislate to allow abortion at any point up to birth ‘just cos’ no matter how many people demand it. Which they won’t.

Holland has the most ‘liberal’ abortion laws in Europe. Well never come even anywhere near their set up.

david75

J C wrote: »

Doesn't alter the fact that we are instinctually revolted by the killing of other Human Beings.

... and abortion is now on such a scale that it likely surpasses all of the other deliberate killings that have happened over the past 2,000 years.

... it is the new 'Holocaust' ... and the new world wide 'warfare' ... and it takes place in the one place that a child should be most secure ... in her mother's womb.

Oh please stop with the hysteria. You’re undoing your own already threadbare baseless argument.

uptherebels

J C wrote: »

Doesn't alter the fact that we are instinctually revolted by the killing of other Human Beings.

don't think you understand what instinctually means. Humans have been killing each other since we came out of the seas. We have devoted a huge amount of time and brain power over the generations to creating more efficient ways of doing it.

J C

Delirium wrote: »

But it's still not answering the question.

Why would women en-masse delay having abortions until late in the pregnancy in preference to the abortion pill?

They probably won't do it en-masse ... but my point is that a 12 week old abortion is just as intrinsically wrong as a later one.

Delirium wrote: »

I'm only asking as you're repeating the same statement over-and-over by not explaining what your concern is about the limit being raised.

... the limit is undoubtedly also going to be higher for specified cases as well. There won't be as many abortions later ... but there still will be abortions later.

... and there is another thing being forgotten about in all of this ... and that is conscientious objectors ... for example doctors who refuse to do abortions, may well find their careers stymied ... because they aren't 'part of the team' ... in an 'abortion on demand' Ireland.

Sinn Fein's refusal to grant a free vote on abortion ... with the likelihood of any pro-life SF TD who doesn't vote for repeal, being suspended for six months ... is a shadow of things to come, right across society, if the 8th is actually repealed.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pro-life-sf-tds-to-face-suspension-for-six-months-467038.html

uptherebels

J C wrote: »

... and there is another thing being forgotten about in all of this ... and that is conscientious objectors ... for example doctors who refuse to do abortions, may well find their careers stymied ... because they aren't 'part of the team' ... in an 'abortion on demand' Ireland.

Any doctor that has problems providing services that give the best possible care to their patients because of personal feelings should face consequences.

The same goes for any medical procedure

Delirium

J C wrote: »

They probably won't do it en-masse ... but my point is that a 12 week old abortion is just as intrinsically wrong as a later one.

Was already aware that was your opinion on abortion.

... the limit is undoubtedly also going to be higher for specified cases as well. There won't be as many abortions later ... but there still will be abortions later.

Okay, but the argument is being put forward that a 'blank cheque' is in the offering for the government. For the sake of discussion, I say okay and the problem is?

If your position is that abortion from conception to childbirth is equally wrong, then it would seem that the 'blank cheque' is irrelevant. It's no to repeal, end of. It actually doesn't matter to you what limit is imposed or if it's subsequently revised to later in the abortion.

... and there is another thing being forgotten about in all of this ... and that is conscientious objectors ... for example doctors who refuse to do abortions, may well find their careers stymied ... because they aren't 'part of the team' ... in an 'abortion on demand' Ireland.

Equally there are doctors that currently cannot follow the conscience and respect a request for an abortion. They face 14 years in prison if they do. Which is a bigger deal than possibly having a black-mark on your professional reputation.

Sinn Fein's refusal to grant a free vote on abortion ... with the likelihood of any pro-life SF TD who doesn't vote for repeal, being suspended for six months ... is a shadow of things to come, right across society, if the 8th is actually repealed.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pro-life-sf-tds-to-face-suspension-for-six-months-467038.html

A shadow of what? You didn't complete your thought.

Are you suggesting that people will be suspended from job (regardless of what job, because 'right across society')?

Do you not see how this reads as scaremongering?

J C

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ah would you stop with the cartoons already!

Why? ... are they pricking your conscience ... on the Humanity of the unborn child?

uptherebels

J C wrote: »

Why? ... are they pricking your conscience ... on the Humanity of the unborn child?

why do you feel the need to use non natural pics to try and prick someones conscience? surely the real pics would suffice?

J C

Delirium wrote: »

A shadow of what? You didn't complete your thought.

Are you suggesting that people will be suspended from job (regardless of what job, because 'right across society')?

Do you not see how this reads as scaremongering?

It's quite predictable and not scaremongering at all.
Here is uptherebels barely concealed contempt for all medical professionals who won't assist with abortions for reasons of conscience ... and the 8th hasn't even been repealed yet.

uptherebels wrote: »

Any doctor that has problems providing services that give the best possible care to their patients because of personal feelings should face consequences.

The same goes for any medical procedure

So there you have it ... welcome to the 'Brave New World' of medical fascism ... as an obstetrician, you must do abortions ... or else !!!

Another good reason for Christians to vote against repeal.

Can you imagine the 'vitrol' that will be directed against Christian Doctors who refuse to carry out abortions ... if the 8th is repealed.
... and against women who refuse to have an abortion on medical advice to do so.

This is what happens in an 'abortion-culture' ... women are told to have abortions.
Quote:-
"When I was pregnant, I was told she'd be born with a club foot. What's more, the doctors said this was a strong indication that she was suffering from a chromosome disability such as Down's syndrome. My husband Shaun - a school chaplain - and I were expected to consider a termination. I will never cease to thank God that we didn't.
Rosie, as it turns out, is physically perfect. She is living proof that doctors can get it wrong. And had we gone down that terrible route, we'd have had no way of knowing that the diagnosis was mistaken."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2274668/My-baby-perfect-Why-did-doctors-push-abort-her.html

... another very good reason to not repeal the 8th.

Bob_Marley

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ah would you stop with the cartoons already!

Agreed, always a good idea to have a real image of what people want killed instead of an illustration.

So, here's an actual photo instead of a 12 week old unborn child, and they are scientific images from getty images library - not a pro life site before anyone tries the censor or slander tactic.

-picture-id218741

Delirium

J C wrote: »

It's quite predictable and not scaremongering at all.
Here is uptherebels barely concealed contempt for all medical professionals who won't assist with abortions for reasons of conscience ... and the 8th hasn't even been repealed yet.

You're not answering the question I asked. And do remember you were suggesting people 'right across society' were going to be suspended(???) for some reason pertaining to abortion. What exactly is that?

uptherebels

J C wrote: »

It's quite predictable and not scaremongering at all.
Here is uptherebels barely concealed contempt for all medical professionals who won't assist with abortions for reasons of conscience ... and the 8th hasn't even been repealed yet.

So there you have it ... welcome to the 'Brave New World' of medical fascism ... you do abortions ... or else !!!

Amother good reason for Christians to vote against repeal.

I said I don't agree with medical "professionals" refusing to do any medical procedure without a medical reason. Their personal feelings are irrelevant to the care of their patient.

As i clearly pointed out but you deliberately misrepresented

pilly

J C wrote:

... and your reason for this unsupported claim?

My reason is I'm a Christian and I have free will.

uptherebels

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Agreed, always a good idea to have a real image of what people want killed instead of an illustration.

So, here's an actual photo instead of a 12 week old unborn child, and they are scientific images from getty images library - not a pro life site before anyone tries the censor or slander tactic.

would you mind providing a link to where you got the pic?

Bob_Marley

pilly wrote: »

My reason is I'm a Christian and I have free will.

I agree with this. The term Christian is meaningless. Anyone can call themselves a Christian and interpret Christianity in any way that suits their own self, from JW's to Westboro baptists.

pilly

Bob_Marley wrote:

So, here's an actual photo instead of a 12 week old unborn child, and they are scientific images from getty images library - not a pro life site before anyone tries the censor or slander tactic.

That is absolutely not a photo of a 12 week old foetus. Get a grip. Nails and all, yeah right.

Don't you lot understand that women know the actual facts? It really goes to show the level of stupidity around this subject.

Or just bare faced lies.

Bob_Marley

uptherebels wrote: »

would you mind providing a link to where you got the pic?

Not at all

https://www.gettyimages.ie/search/stack/624894889

Timberrrrrrrr

J C wrote: »

Why? ... are they pricking your conscience ... on the Humanity of the unborn child?

Nope

I find them ridiculous and pointless in your CONSTANT lame attempts to use emotional blackmail in this thread.

pilly

Bob_Marley wrote:

Not at all

You're really making an idiot out of yourself now.

You do know what creative means right?

uck51js9zml2yt

david75 wrote: »

The vast majority of the Christians in Ireland are Christian in name only. The church is all but abndoned. It will be completely extinct within a generation.

Apart from an insignificantly small number, Nobody is letting their faith, that they don’t actually have, guide their conscience on what way they vote. In this or any referendum

Not all who call themselves Christians are Christians.
By the church , I assume you mean the RCC, so if empty pews are a sign , you're probably right.

But there was always a stream outside what was deemed the main rivers and a group of people who were the Church.

Bob_Marley

pilly wrote: »

That is absolutely not a photo of a 12 week old foetus. Get a grip. Nails and all, yeah right.

Don't you lot understand that women know the actual facts? It really goes to show the level of stupidity around this subject.

Or just bare faced lies.

It is a 12 week unborn child, they were used in Life magazine.

Have you never heard of getty images ? One of the largest suppliers of stock photos in the world.

david75

Again a display of how disconnected certain factions are from reality and medical science.

Such amazing lighting and perfect composition.

How in the world did they do it??

Strange how does every pregnant woman in the World ends up with a scratchy black and white 2D screengrab from an ultrasound yet pro life campaign can afford such wonderful nat geo quality pics of the feotus in utero.

Oh wait. The pic above is actually a computer generated image!!??? digital lies!!

Lies!!!

uck51js9zml2yt

uptherebels wrote: »

I said I don't agree with medical "professionals" refusing to do any medical procedure without a medical reason. Their personal feelings are irrelevant to the care of their patient.

As i clearly pointed out but you deliberately misrepresented

So it's a case of leave your conscience at the door??

Now whose deluded?

Timberrrrrrrr

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Not at all

https://www.gettyimages.ie/search/stack/624894889

Here's a picture of an actual 12 week.old baby that was miscarried, quite different to the one you posted

WARNING

Graphic image of a miscarried baby in link below.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=12+week+old+fetus&dcr=0&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin4unWh7jZAhUIJMAKHYpUBFgQ_AUICSgB&biw=360&bih=616&dpr=3#imgrc=i8lGzS1vXM29pM:

NuMarvel

J C wrote: »

The other point I'm making is that abortion pills are both dangerous and illegal...

The abortion pill is no more dangerous than any other type of medication and women in a number of countries can now get them to take at home.

The most dangerous thing about the pill in Ireland is the fact that it's illegal, because the prospect of a 14 year prison sentence would make anyone think twice if they experienced side effects. So if you're really concerned about the dangers of the pill, I suggest you campaign to legalise it.

uck51js9zml2yt

david75 wrote: »

Again a display of how disconnected certain factions are from reality and medical science.

Such amazing lighting and perfect composition.

How in the world did they do it??

Strange how does every pregnant woman in the World ends up with a scratchy black and white 2D screengrab from an ultrasound yet pro life campaign can afford such wonderful nat geo quality pics of the feotus in utero.

Oh wait. The pic above is actually a computer generated image!!??? digital lies!!

Lies!!!

We got 4 D images of our kids....the answer as to why pregnant women get grainy images as opposed to 4D? We paid for ours!

J C

uptherebels wrote: »

I said I don't agree with medical "professionals" refusing to do any medical procedure without a medical reason. Their personal feelings are irrelevant to the care of their patient.

Nobody should be forced or discriminated against for acting in accordance with their conscience.

uptherebels wrote: »

As i clearly pointed out but you deliberately misrepresented

I didn't misrepresent you ... I quoted you exactly.