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Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

jimd2

Probably not a popular opinion as most I speak to are fully in favour of Sinn Fein's strategy ref the Irish Language Act in the North.

However I think that they have possibly scored a major own goal in insisting on the imposing of the Irish Language Act. I think they have handed the DUP a Get Out Of Jail ard with regards to Devoltion and, allied to not taking their Westminister seats have allowed the sitution develop where the British government will not act to impose their will on the DUP.

So the DUP seem to be getting what they wanted - a return to direct rule from London and, linked in to Brexit this must be against the overall nationalist.

Regarding the Irish Language Act, in my opinion a lot of the stuff s bells and whistles such as signage and will do very little to really increase the use of Irish in the North. I think Sinn Fein thought they were in a stronger position than they were and thought this would be easier to get than it was.

However I hink the price they look to be payin is too much but they have gone too far and cannot back down now especially with a new leader. So major wn goal from Adams and co..

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blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

How can anyone here answer what the act would contain when so far, it hasn't been leaked/ released to the media?

What we do know however, is that it had been seen by all the relative party's north/south and the UK - and had apparently been agreed upon, until (and not for the first time) the DUP decided they wanted to throw the toys out of the pram seemingly by the hard-core grassroots members.

Should direct rule be imposed, the irony will be that the yuk parliament will prob stream roll into law the 'Birtishness' the DUP want to hang on to - and implement a language act (like in Wales and Scotland) and SSM.

They'll possibly look at the stupid outdated laws that exist up there surrounding Sunday's too (try doing business in a major store early on a Sunday up there).

Some irony.

I wasn't asking for what the parties had agreed was in an ILA, I was asking what did people believe should be in an ILA.

Like on the abortion threads, you can ask what do the government proposals say or what do people believe. Surely, those people who support an ILA have some idea of what they believe should be in it.

Have they considered the safety issues raised by the Luas people in relation to signage - at least everyone in the South has some notion of Irish? Have they considered the ghettoisation issue? Do they believe it should be a token symbolic act or do they believe it should have real impact and real vision around Northern Ireland? These are questions that can be answered by posters who claim to know a lot about Northern Ireland and feel able to dismiss the opinions of others (labelling them as "partitionists").

I am left with the conclusion that having actually seen the impact of the ILA in the South, and not liking it, that my objections to an ILA on those real practical grounds are more grounded that any of the support or objections from people in the North to something that they don't really understand.

[Deleted User]

blanch152 wrote: »

I am left with the conclusion that having actually seen the impact of the ILA in the South, and not liking it......

Everyone knows where Dun Laoghaire is blanch. Theres nothing wrong with the signage, its the mindsets, like yours, that need to change. I must say that i find your persistent negativity to these issues quite depressing.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone knows where Dun Laoghaire is blanch. Theres nothing wrong with the signage, its the mindsets, like yours, that need to change. I must say that i find your persistent negativity to these issues quite depressing.

Not negative, just realistic.

The Irish language doesn't need an ILA.

[Deleted User]

blanch152 wrote: »

Not negative, just realistic.

The Irish language doesn't need an ILA.

In your opinion. Here’s an enlightening opinion. Shows the advantage of a positive mindset and the ability NOT to have to react negatively to perceived differences in others.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/we-protestants-fear-gaelic-and-we-were-raised-to-mock-it-828996.html

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

In your opinion. Here’s an enlightening opinion. Shows the advantage of a positive mindset and the ability NOT to have to react negatively to perceived differences in others.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/we-protestants-fear-gaelic-and-we-were-raised-to-mock-it-828996.html

I have a positive attitude to many things and a realistic attitude to the future of the Irish language.

McMurphy

ozmo wrote: »

So I was leaving the Airport short term car park a few weeks ago - looking for the exit...

And it struck me as totally bizarre that the vital signage would give such prominence to the Irish Language...

Important warning signs state its the "Sli Amach" in huge letters and a tiny "way out" in small letters...

This is an international airport - and a huge majority will not understand the larger text - and road signs that people can understand at a glance are more important for safety than for nationalistic pride.

I can see how confusion would arise.

Glad you emerged unscathed though, and presumably a search party wasn't dispatched on this occasion?

charlie14

cycle4fun wrote: »

Says the person who defended a political party leader sneering the war-cry / catch-phrase of the PIRA. "Up the Rebels, tiocagh ar la"

Care to point out where in her acceptance speech she said the highlighted ?

I see where she said "Up the Republic" so perhaps it is just a case of you looking on all members of the Republic as rebels.

You would not be alone in that unfortunately.
It`s an opinion shared, or at least implied to scaremonger, by many unionist political dinosaurs in Northern Ireland

Havockk

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I can see how confusion would arise.

Glad you emerged unscathed though, and presumably a search party wasn't dispatched on this occasion?

The poster also said the signs had 'tiny' english translations. The letters are infact the exact same size.

ozmo

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I can see how confusion would arise.

Glad you emerged unscathed though, and presumably a search party wasn't dispatched on this occasion?

... wasnt that one - was in short term on walls of spiral down ramps - just one instance of it - Ill photo it next time Im there...

I know we are blind to it because we see it all the time - but look at it objectively and you don't honestly think this random example below is a clean and uncluttered sign..

Havockk

ozmo wrote: »

No need to be smart - and anyway it wasnt that one - was in short term on walls of spiral down ramps - just one instance of it - Ill photo it next time Im there...

I know we are blind to it because we see it all the time - but look at it objectively and you don't honestly think this random example below is a clean and uncluttered sign..

That sign is perfectly fine and legible.

charlie14

ozmo wrote: »

... wasnt that one - was in short term on walls of spiral down ramps - just one instance of it - Ill photo it next time Im there...

I know we are blind to it because we see it all the time - but look at it objectively and you don't honestly think this random example below is a clean and uncluttered sign..

What exactly is your problem with it ?

The Anglo-Saxon (and pretty much meaningless) translation of all those towns is in uppercase lettering.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

In your opinion. Here’s an enlightening opinion. Shows the advantage of a positive mindset and the ability NOT to have to react negatively to perceived differences in others.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/we-protestants-fear-gaelic-and-we-were-raised-to-mock-it-828996.html

I read that with interest.

The old 1980s attitude of the Protestants to the Irish language reminded me of the current day attitudes displayed on these boards towards Ulster-Scots.

History repeating itself in Northern Ireland again.

McMurphy

ozmo wrote: »

... wasnt that one - was in short term on walls of spiral down ramps - just one instance of it - Ill photo it next time Im there...

I know we are blind to it because we see it all the time - but look at it objectively and you don't honestly think this random example below is a clean and uncluttered sign..

Sorry , I was attempting humour, sometimes message boards aren't the best platforms to get that across.

However in saying that, bilingual signs in an airport are the norm pretty much.across the globe - Madrid/Milan/ Marseilles any major airport will have the country in questions indigenous language first, followed (Usually) by the English translation.

italian-sign-airport-uscita-with-arrow-picture-id629483030

It does look like giving out for the sake of it.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

I read that with interest.

The old 1980s attitude of the Protestants to the Irish language reminded me of the current day attitudes displayed on these boards towards Ulster-Scots.

History repeating itself in Northern Ireland again.

The Irish language isn't comparable to Ulster Scots - Ulster Scots isn't a language. It's a dialect.

However that's not the only thing wrong with your post.

The deal, as confirmed by Mary Lou McDonald at Stormont on Thursday, involved a trinity of Acts that were separate and collective. The proposal was for an Irish language Act, an Ulster Scots Act and a respecting language and diversity Act that Sinn F could interpret as meaning a stand-alone Irish Act and the DUP could characterise as part of an interconnected raft of legislation.

Moreover, the provisions of the Irish and Ulster Scots Acts would be incorporated into the respect Act although Irish and Ulster Scots would remain in law as separate Acts. Like the Holy Trinity, all a bit mysterious, but surely a workable compromise that Arlene Foster could have sold to her people

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The Irish language isn't comparable to Ulster Scots - Ulster Scots isn't a language. It's a dialect.

Exactly my point. Your attitude towards Ulster-Scots is reminiscent of the 1970s attitude towards Irish recalled in the Examiner article.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Exactly my point. Your attitude towards Ulster-Scots is reminiscent of the 1970s attitude towards Irish recalled in the Examiner article.

Your point?

Your point is moot. Irish is a language - that is a fact.

Ulster Scots is not a language, it is a dialect - also a fact. (Kinda obvious when you aee why one os called irish language act and one is Ulster Scots act)

Though I am not against providing its speakers with an Ulster Scots act, I do not, did not and would never disrespect it - dialect/language.

What exactly is your point

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

Exactly my point. Your attitude towards Ulster-Scots is reminiscent of the 1970s attitude towards Irish recalled in the Examiner article.

The concept of Ulster Scots was examined very carefully by the European Commission in 1999. From the article:

In a highly critical report drawn up by 12 European delegates who speak languages such as Breton, Irish, Galician and Friulian (from northern Italy) Ulster Scots is damned as being "extremely close" to standard English.

For a flavour of why they were so critical, here is a sample text in Ulster Scots:

Gin ye hae guid analogue reception the nou, ye'r like no tae need tae replace yer ruiftap or set-tap aerial for the cheenge-ower – thare nae sic thing as a 'deegital aerial'. But gin ye hae ill analogue reception the nou, ye’ll mebbe need tae replace it.

McMurphy

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The concept of Ulster Scots was examined very carefully by the European Commission in 1999. From the article:

In a highly critical report drawn up by 12 European delegates who speak languages such as Breton, Irish, Galician and Friulian (from northern Italy) Ulster Scots is damned as being "extremely close" to standard English.

For a flavour of why they were so critical, here is a sample text in Ulster Scots:

Gin ye hae guid analogue reception the nou, ye'r like no tae need tae replace yer ruiftap or set-tap aerial for the cheenge-ower – thare nae sic thing as a 'deegital aerial'. But gin ye hae ill analogue reception the nou, ye’ll mebbe need tae replace it.

I for one don't need Google translate for the above - it's pretty much English in a Scottish accent.

charlie14

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I for one don't need Google translate for the above - it's pretty much English in a Scottish accent.

More Paul Howard`s Ross O`Carroll-Kelly than a distinct language.

sdanseo

The General design of our road signs is shíte. Irish is not given equal priority due to the use of italics and lower case.

I'm less concerned about that than the fact that it just looks awful.

This proposal was a brilliant idea but for some reason never saw the light of day: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/new-road-signs-with-parity-for-irish-may-be-introduced-1.1587458

recedite

That also looks awful.
There is no getting away from the clutter when everything has to be duplicated.

NIMAN

You're all 'wee dafties' which, as far as I know, is a proper term in Ulster Scots.

jm08

cycle4fun wrote: »

The past was a different time, but there was no comparision between either the government in N. Ireland or here in the Republic with the arartheid system of South Africa. MOPE's were not found on this island, except in their heads.

You mean between 1911 and 1991 (there was no census in 1921). I'll tell you what happened.
1. WWI - thousands killed in it.
2. Withdrawal of British Army and Civil Service etc. out of Ireland. Many would have been transferred to other colonial outposts.
3. Many moved to NI (a Protestant State for a Protestant people as was the claim at the time).
4. WWII - more killed.

Anecdotally, I can tell you of a fairly well off family close to where I lived. Father killed in WWI, 3 sons killed in WWII, leaving a sister to carry out farming on her own. Terribly sad. She never got married because there was literally no one of her generation or religion left to marry.

jm08

recedite wrote: »

That also looks awful.
There is no getting away from the clutter when everything has to be duplicated.

When people are looking at road signs, they are looking for a specific place and really don't take in the surrounding information. The name of the place they are going to will jump out of all the other placenames.

jm08

cycle4fun wrote: »

I do not think Arlene Foster invited either May or Varadkar to Belfast or told them a deal was done

I'd imagine the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Karen Bradley would be the one issueing those invitations.

Professor Moriarty

jm08 wrote: »

I'd imagine the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Karen Bradley would be the one issueing those invitations.

It's ironic that the poster believes May requires an invitation in order to visit Belfast.

Charles Babbage

blanch152 wrote: »

Exactly my point. Your attitude towards Ulster-Scots is reminiscent of the 1970s attitude towards Irish recalled in the Examiner article.

Irish was a language and Ulster Scots a dialect in the 1970s also.

No own goal for SF here, the DUP were offered a reasonable deal and hadn't the sense to accept it, p**ing off the British in the process. They keep on kicking into their own net.

recedite

jm08 wrote: »

The name of the place they are going to will jump out of all the other placenames.

Like Baile Chl does?

...local councillors argue that many people don’t know that Baile Chl means Claregalway and therefore are missing the exit for the area

recedite

^^ Oops boards.ie has automatically mangled the Irish spelling of Claregalway :pac:
Probably because it had a fada in it, even though I had typed it in correctly.

Professor Moriarty

recedite wrote: »

^^ Oops boards.ie has automatically mangled the Irish spelling of Claregalway :pac:
Probably because it had a fada in it, even though I had typed it in correctly.

Press and hold alt gr key then press the letter you want.