The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

uptherebels wrote: »

You don't believe that years ago in conservative Catholic Ireland where suicide and unplanned pregnancies were sins that these things may have been under reported?

Someone said a few posts ago that suicide nowadays is being unreported. They mentioned traffic accidents. So you're point is invalid.

As regards to the quote i made about a link not being required for the obvious, i subsequently provided a link for that point which people then didn't want to talk about. Here is the link again in case you missed it:

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch. Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

So now that i've provided my link, you might do the same?

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I agree. I think we should all be able to agree on that point. That's where the focus should be, not on bringing in abortion.

Do you support wider access to contraception then? All forms, including the morning-after pill? Do you support better sex education for children at a younger age? Do you believe that all contraception should be available free whether or not you have a medical card?

All of those measures are necessary to reduce crisis pregnancies?

ohnonotgmail

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Someone said a few posts ago that suicide nowadays is being unreported. They mentioned traffic accidents. So you're point is invalid.

As regards to the quote i made about a link not being required for the obvious, i subsequently provided a link for that point which people then didn't want to talk about. Here is the link again in case you missed it:

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch. Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

So now that i've provided my link, you might do the same?

None of that sounds any different to when i was a teenager a long time ago.

the referendum is not being forced on anybody. the public want a referendum. If it passed it will solve many problems. As will better sex education and easier access to contraception.

JDD

The media tells people what they can and can't say nowadays. It is a mortal sin to be pro-life or talk about immigration etc. There is a new church in town, and we are all forced to attend anytime we turn on the TV or radio.

I don't think that's true. I honestly don't. If we're talking about Irish media, the Irish Independent doesn't really seem to have opinion pieces at all on controversial subjects such as abortion or teenage pregnancy or even the same sex marriage referendum. They seem to concentrate more on hard luck stories, tragic accidents, local news and the Irish celebrity scene.

The Irish Times has definitely got an agenda, that's for sure. But there readership is small in overall terms and mainly aimed at liberal base. Even they engage Breda O'Brien and John Waters on opinion pieces to present a bit of balance.

Other papers such as the Irish Sun and the Irish Daily Mail most definitely present a conservative viewpoint, reflecting the position of their owner.

I can't talk about RTE, because generally I don't watch it nor listen to RTE radio. But I can't think about any specific programming aimed at teens that encourages them to engage in sexual activity before they are ready.

If you're talking about media with teens, their main influence is social media. That's definitely a challenge that we as a society need to grapple with, not only with the exposure to teens (and pre-teens) to inappropriate sexual material but the potential for abuse and bullying.

My view is that if a teen comes from a conservative religious family, and chooses to wait to have sex with someone they are in a long term relationship with or until they're married, they tend to surround themselves with like minded people. Conversely, social media enables them to meet like minded people.

If Irish teens are saying that current society (generally meaning their own social group) are pressuring them into doing things, including sexual activity but also drinking, smoking, experimenting with drugs etc., well, that's been the story since the dawn of time right? I don't see any studies out there that show that even a significant minority of people who engaged in extra marital sex regret that decision. I also don't see any studies saying that those adults who engaged in sexual activity before the age of 20 regret that decision. I'd like to see a study of my parents generation, who grew up during your so called Golden Age of Ireland to see if a significant minority or even majority of them felt that they were pressurized by Irish society in the 50's/60's/70's to behave a certain way sexually, and whether that had any long term effects on their own mental health.

My parents are in their 70's. My father is a catholic social conservative, but even he has said on many occasions that he's so glad I grew up in 90's when Ireland was opening up, rather than in my mother's generation. Clearly my mother thinks this also. He was even happy for me to go to CofI secondary school so that I wouldn't be subject to the doctrination of the past.

mrkiscool2

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Someone said a few posts ago that suicide nowadays is being unreported. They mentioned traffic accidents. So you're point is invalid.

As regards to the quote i made about a link not being required for the obvious, i subsequently provided a link for that point which people then didn't want to talk about. Here is the link again in case you missed it:

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch. Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

So now that i've provided my link, you might do the same?

Okay. We've known that for a while. We can have better sex education so there is less need for abortion and still have safe and legal access to abortion for women in Ireland. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

NuMarvel

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

The statistics clearly show that the number and rate of teenage pregnancies has been dropping year on year for the last 15 years and is the lowest it's been in decades.

I get that you want to make it look like the referendum is the result of “a liberal media bias!!” but maybe you should pick an example where the outcome is the exact opposite of what you’re claiming the media is doing.

JDD

Teenage crisis pregnancies are only one aspect of the debate though 2wsxcde3.

How to you propose to deal with crisis pregnancies that occur to older married women?

How come the media isn't reporting on this story:

Irish News Outlets Forced to Withdraw ‘Fake’ Poll Finding 75% of Doctors Support Abortion
The Journal.ie and the Irish Times – two of Ireland’s largest media organizations – have been forced to pull what appears to be a fabricated story about a poll that claimed 75 percent of Irish doctors support repealing Ireland’s pro-life Eighth Amendment and allowing abortions unrestricted up to 12 weeks gestation. The Irish Examiner also led with the story
(Source: http://www.breitbart.com/abortion/2018/02/12/irish-news-outlets-forced-to-withdraw-fake-poll-finding-75-of-doctors-support-abortion/ )

If the pro-life side did this we'd never hear the end of it. Is a story about 3 of Irelands largest news outlets publishing a fake poll not news worthy?

2wsxcde3 wrote:

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

Better for whom? For men? Because it certainly wasn't better for women. I'd much rather an STI than to be locked up for having sex.

mrkiscool2

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

How come the media isn't reporting on this story:

Irish News Outlets Forced to Withdraw ‘Fake’ Poll Finding 75% of Doctors Support Abortion
The Journal.ie and the Irish Times – two of Ireland’s largest media organizations – have been forced to pull what appears to be a fabricated story about a poll that claimed 75 percent of Irish doctors support repealing Ireland’s pro-life Eighth Amendment and allowing abortions unrestricted up to 12 weeks gestation. The Irish Examiner also led with the story
(Source: http://www.breitbart.com/abortion/2018/02/12/irish-news-outlets-forced-to-withdraw-fake-poll-finding-75-of-doctors-support-abortion/ )

If the pro-life side did this we'd never hear the end of it. Is a story about 3 of Irelands largest news outlets publishing a fake poll not news worthy?

Firstly, never use Breitbart as a source. They have a clear anti-choice narrative. Secondly, just because there is no way to accurately verify who the respondents to this poll was doesn't automatically mean that doctors don't support abortion to 12 weeks. Also, they didn't make up the story. 75% of respondents claimed they were a doctor and said that they supported abortion to 12 weeks. Pretty much a non story to be honest. Should they have been more diligent in their research? Sure, but it doesn't prove anything either way.

JDD

Irish News Outlets Forced to Withdraw ‘Fake’ Poll Finding 75% of Doctors Support Abortion

Okay, I refuse to click on Breitbart for many reasons. A quick google shows pro-life websites repeating the article from Breitbart. Is there any independent website confirming this? I've searched in the The Journal, The Irish Times and the Examiner search engines and there's no reference to a poll or to the withdrawal of one. It's not that I don't believe it, if it's true it's very sloppy reporting. But I'll need to see reproduction of the accusation from somewhere other than a cut and paste from Breitbart.

2wsxcde3 wrote:

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

2wsxcde3 wrote:

That's a big claim. You'd need to provide proof of that.

Many posters (including yourself!) have provided you with links that disprove your statement about teen pregnancies and you ignore them.

What exactly is the point in giving you proof?

Timberrrrrrrr

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Not afraid to talk about their issues?

Fine Gael councillor to face disciplinary hearing over comments about Islam
(Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/councillor-brian-murphy-twitter-3589108-Sep2017/ )

The media tells people what they can and can't say nowadays. It is a mortal sin to be pro-life or talk about immigration etc. There is a new church in town, and we are all forced to attend anytime we turn on the TV or radio.

That's a big claim. You'd need to provide proof of that.

Is watching compulsory? I never watch the news i get my information from various sources online.

2wsxcde3 wrote:

If the pro-life side did this we'd never hear the end of it. Is a story about 3 of Irelands largest news outlets publishing a fake poll not news worthy?

Breitbart reported it. That's surely your favourite media, what's the problem?

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Someone said a few posts ago that suicide nowadays is being unreported. They mentioned traffic accidents. So you're point is invalid.

As regards to the quote i made about a link not being required for the obvious, i subsequently provided a link for that point which people then didn't want to talk about. Here is the link again in case you missed it:

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch. Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

The point being made is that the media pressurizes young people into having sex, leading to unwanted pregnancies which results in abortion according to the study. So the media helps create the problem of unwanted pregnancies, and is now here in 2018 forcing an abortion referendum on the public to fix a problem that they themselves helped to create.

So now that i've provided my link, you might do the same?

There are a few strange conclusions in that piece. First, take this quote "Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer". If you wait until you are 42 to have sex, you are hardly likely to say you wished you had waited longer, in fact, the opposite is more likely.

Secondly, "young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy", so the conclusion is that those with less education about sex and those with little access to contraception are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy. Well, excuse me if I am not a bit surprised.

Thirdly, they are more likely "to contract a sexually-transmitted disease". Well, they are stating the bleeding obvious, the earlier you start, the more sex you are likely to have, the more likely you are to contract a disease.

At the end of the day, the Crisis Pregnancy Agency have to justify their existence, so it is a combination of the blatantly obvious and they would say that, wouldn't they?

NuMarvel

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

How come the media isn't reporting on this story:

I have another story I bet they won't report on:

Boards.ie user tears through pro life red herring quota in a single afternoon.

Pro life campaigners were left stunned today when Boards.ie user "2wsxcde3" used up the side's entire allowance of red herrings in a single afternoon. A spokesperson for the PLC and the Iona Institute declined to comment, but David Quinn could be heard sobbing loudly in the background. It is understood that No campaigners had intended to save these red herrings for later on in the campaign.

In a discussion about the upcoming referendum on Boards, user "2wsxcde3" (real name unknown) made a number of bizarre claims, all seemingly unrelated to the referendum, including a reference to a comments made by a FG local councillor about Islam. When contacted, the politician would only say "What the hell is a "2wsxcde3"??"

JDD wrote: »

Okay, I refuse to click on Breitbart for many reasons. A quick google shows pro-life websites repeating the article from Breitbart. Is there any independent website confirming this? I've searched in the The Journal, The Irish Times and the Examiner search engines and there's no reference to a poll or to the withdrawal of one. It's not that I don't believe it, if it's true it's very sloppy reporting. But I'll need to see reproduction of the accusation from somewhere other than a cut and paste from Breitbart.

Ok, here is the Irish Examiner still having the fake poll up and trying to justify it even though you or I (presumably not doctors) could have voted in the poll. A child could have voted in the poll:

75% of doctors support 12-week access to abortion
(Source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/75-of-doctors-support-12-week-access-to-abortion-466855.html )

And here are Irelands GPs openly criticizing Simon Harries proposed GP-led abortion service:

GPs 'alarmed' at minister's plans for abortion service
(Source: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/gps-alarmed-at-ministers-plans-for-abortion-service-36572022.html )

Something not jiving between the two stories.

2wsxcde3 wrote:

Ok, here is the Irish Examiner still having the fake poll up and trying to justify it even though you or I (presumably not doctors) could have voted in the poll. A child could have voted in the poll:

So no retraction then? So the Breitbart article is lies?

Where's the retraction?

NuMarvel

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Ok, here is the Irish Examiner still having the fake poll up and trying to justify it even though you or I (presumably not doctors) could have voted in the poll. A child could have voted in the poll:

75% of doctors support 12-week access to abortion
(Source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/75-of-doctors-support-12-week-access-to-abortion-466855.html )

And here are Irelands GPs openly criticizing Simon Harries proposed GP-led abortion service:

GPs 'alarmed' at minister's plans for abortion service
(Source: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/gps-alarmed-at-ministers-plans-for-abortion-service-36572022.html )

Something not jiving between the two stories.

The articles are about two different things, so little wonder they don't "jive".

The GPs alarm was the reaction of the main GP union to not being consulted, not about a possible change in access. This was discussed earlier in the thread.

Timberrrrrrrr

NuMarvel wrote: »

I have another story I bet they won't report on:

Boards.ie user tears through pro life red herring quota in a single afternoon.

Pro life campaigners were left stunned today when Boards.ie user "2wsxcde3" used up the side's entire allowance of red herrings in a single afternoon. A spokesperson for the PLC and the Iona Institute declined to comment, but David Quinn could be heard sobbing loudly in the background. It is understood that No campaigners had intended to save these red herrings for later on in the campaign.

In a discussion about the upcoming referendum on Boards, user "2wsxcde3" (real name unknown) made a number of bizarre claims, all seemingly unrelated to the referendum, including a reference to a comments made by a FG local councillor about Islam. When contacted, the politician would only say "What the hell is a "2wsxcde3"??"

:pac:

Eponymous

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Ok, here is the Irish Examiner still having the fake poll up and trying to justify it even though you or I (presumably not doctors) could have voted in the poll. A child could have voted in the poll:

75% of doctors support 12-week access to abortion
(Source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/75-of-doctors-support-12-week-access-to-abortion-466855.html )

And here are Irelands GPs openly criticizing Simon Harries proposed GP-led abortion service:

GPs 'alarmed' at minister's plans for abortion service
(Source: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/gps-alarmed-at-ministers-plans-for-abortion-service-36572022.html )

Something not jiving between the two stories.

Another red herring.

The article you linked to in the Indo clearly states that the doctors representative body are alarmed that there was no consultation by Harris about GP-led abortion services. It doesn't state a view for or against abortion.

Eponymous wrote: »

Another red herring.

The article you linked to in the Indo clearly states that the doctors representative body are alarmed that there was no consultation by Harris about GP-led abortion services. It doesn't state a view for or against abortion.

Could you blame them for being "alarmed"? Could you imagine becoming a doctor to help people and then being forced against your conscious to give women the abortion pill?

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Ok, here is the Irish Examiner still having the fake poll up and trying to justify it even though you or I (presumably not doctors) could have voted in the poll. A child could have voted in the poll:

75% of doctors support 12-week access to abortion
(Source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/75-of-doctors-support-12-week-access-to-abortion-466855.html )

And here are Irelands GPs openly criticizing Simon Harries proposed GP-led abortion service:

GPs 'alarmed' at minister's plans for abortion service
(Source: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/gps-alarmed-at-ministers-plans-for-abortion-service-36572022.html )

Something not jiving between the two stories.

The article in the Examiner reads very accurately to me.

The content clearly states that "The survey, to be published in tomorrow’s edition of Ireland’s longest-running medical trade newspaper the Irish Medical Times, asked all readers of the GP and consultant-focussed publication if they support or oppose the potential 12-week law due to be introduced if the Eighth Amendment is removed.

Out of 388 respondents, a total of 285, or 73%, said they are in favour of the divisive new rule, while 96, or 25%, said they are opposed, with just seven survey takers, or 2%, saying they have no view on the matter. While the poll did not include responses from all 2,500 GPs and a similar number of consultants in Ireland, it is the most substantial examination of doctors’ 12-week abortion views to date."

Nothing hidden, all very clear, no need for a retraction.

Like every poll, I read it with the understanding of who commissioned the poll, who carried it out, how accurate it was, etc. On a scale of 1 to 10 for accuracy, where 10 is most accurate e.g. an actual general election, and 1 is least accurate e.g. a survey of Irish Catholic readers on mass attendance, this poll is probably somewhere between 4 and 6.

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Could you blame them for being "alarmed"? Could you imagine becoming a doctor to help people and then being forced against your conscious to give women the abortion pill?

No one is going to be forced to do anything, such absolute hyperbole.

Currently, pharmacists aren't obliged to prescribe the MAP if it goes against their conscience.
I'm sure it will be similar for doctors when the referendum is passed - they won't be obliged to prescribe abortion pills unless they want to.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Could you blame them for being "alarmed"? Could you imagine becoming a doctor to help people and then being forced against your conscious to give women the abortion pill?

No, I am imagining cash registers in their heads, if we have to do abortions on the medical card, how much extra can we charge the state for it? Call me cynical, but that is how most people think.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Currently, pharmacists aren't obliged to prescribe the MAP if it goes against their conscience.
I'm sure it will be similar for doctors when the referendum is passed - they won't be obliged to prescribe abortion pills unless they want to.

At the moment. Then it becomes a "human right". And the pharmacies and doctors will then find themselves in "violation of a human right". Guess what happens then?

UN pushes for international law to make abortion a human right
(Source: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/un-pushes-for-international-law-to-make-abortion-a-human-right )

2wsxcde3 wrote:

Could you blame them for being "alarmed"? Could you imagine becoming a doctor to help people and then being forced against your conscious to give women the abortion pill?

Except they won't be forced so that's another lie by you. Think I'll start keeping a scoreboard.