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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Edward M

MrPudding wrote: »

I have not checked your link, but I don't believe that applies in Ireland, and it certainly doesn't in the UK. I can (though I wouldn't, there is that pesky choice thing again) sit on my ass and watch a child drown, and there would be no legal consequences. If that child happened to be my child (I have a bunch of kids, because whilst I am pro-choice I am, not pro-abortion. A pro-abortionist with 4 kids and no abortions is pretty crap at it), then there is a duty of care, but there is no duty of care to strangers.

In addition to that, the duty of care would only apply to a human in being, similar to why abortion is nit murder. The offence of murder has very specific requirements, the main one being the entity being murdered must be a human in being, a born person.

MrP

In some states in america unlawful killing of a fetus is considered as can be considered as homicide.
This dissent include abortion of course, but the killing of a fetus during the commission of a crime.
Its interesting that in such cases the fetus is recognised as human.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

kylith

Brendan Eager Stud wrote: »

i.e. abortion is a form of contraception?

Abortion is not contraception. Abortion is one method of taking responsibility for the failure of contraception.

NuMarvel

Billy86 wrote: »

I was in the middle of posting just that, it's quite the convenient overlap that so many against sex before marriage would also likely be against same sex marriage don't ya think?

Complete coincidence I'm sure.

Just as it's a complete coincidence that absolutely everyone who campaigned against marriage equality is also opposed to repeal. Mullen, Healy Rae, McGrath, the Ionas, the Catholic Church, Family & Life, the spokespeople for "Mothers & Fathers Matter"... the list goes on.

JDD

i.e. abortion is a form of contraception?

Well, as a medical term, no, as conception has already occurred so nothing could be "contra" to it i.e. nothing can prevent something that has already occurred. I'm not a doctor but I guess a suggested medical term would be contragravidity, or something that prevents continuation of a pregnancy.

So there you go. The Pill, condoms and the coil are methods of contraception. Abortion is a method of contragravidity. Does that help?

January

JDD wrote: »

i.e. abortion is a form of contraception?

Well, as a medical term, no, as conception has already occurred so nothing could be "contra" to it i.e. nothing can prevent something that has already occurred. I'm not a doctor but I guess a suggested medical term would be contragravidity, or something that prevents continuation of a pregnancy.

So there you go. The Pill, condoms and the coil are methods of contraception. Abortion is a method of contragravidity. Does that help?

This is a better answer than I could have given anyway.

amdublin

I disagree with what has been brought into the discussion here on this thread about only having sex in marriage.

It implies that sex outside of marriage is a bad thing.

Sex is a good thing! Human beings need touch. As long as everyone is being safe (and preventing against sti's or pregnancy if you dont want to get pregnant) then what harm is it.

I will be open and honest here, I was brainwashed for years - mainly from my convent school education - that sex was a bad thing and I suffered something terrible from guilt and anxiety. Me now, I realise that at the right time, and with the right person sex is not bad (the opposite on fact).

Why oh why are some people so intent on controlling other people's bedroom activity?

MrPudding

Edward M wrote: »

In some states in america unlawful killing of a fetus is considered as can be considered as homicide.
This dissent include abortion of course, but the killing of a fetus during the commission of a crime.
Its interesting that in such cases the fetus is recognised as human.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

Couple of points. First, that is America.

Secondly, homicide is not murder. Homicide is a class of offences which contains specific offences like murder and manslaughter. My point was abortion was not murder, and nothing you have posted contradicts that.

As for recognition as human. Meh. I certainly would not say otherwise, it is clearly human. I would make the distinction, however, between a human, a human in being (a born human) and a person. Those particular laws in your link define an "unborn victim" and whilst, as the article also says, it may a a step toward recognised personhood for the unborn, the fact that it is a step toward logically means the unborn does not currently have personhood.

MrP

MrPudding

JDD wrote: »

Well, as a medical term, no, as conception has already occurred so nothing could be "contra" to it i.e. nothing can prevent something that has already occurred. I'm not a doctor but I guess a suggested medical term would be contragravidity, or something that prevents continuation of a pregnancy.

So there you go. The Pill, condoms and the coil are methods of contraception. Abortion is a method of contragravidity. Does that help?

The pro-life cares not for the correct meaning of a word. That's why they keep saying abortion is murder.

MrP

2wsxcde3

kylith wrote: »

A culture of no sex before marriage had the Magdalene laundries doing a roaring trade, back in the day. And the lack of sex ed meant that girls didn't even know how what sex was or how pregnancy happened.

Yet again, here we have people mindlessly repeating anti-Catholic propaganda they've been fed by the media without actually doing their own research:

Teenage pregnancies decline as funding for sex education is cut
The state’s efforts to teach adolescents about sex and make access to contraceptives easier may have encouraged risky behaviour rather than curbed it, the research suggests.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-education-funding-cuts-drive-decline-in-teenage-pregnancies-n67v6mnzr )

Zubeneschamali

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Yet again, here we have people mindlessly repeating anti-Catholic propaganda they've been fed by the media without actually doing their own research:

When one study contradicts "conventional wisdom", meaning lots and lots of studies, you should not bet the farm on it.

Here is a response citing some of those studies.

2wsxcde3

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

When one study contradicts "conventional wisdom", meaning lots and lots of studies, you should not bet the farm on it.

Here is a response citing some of those studies.

Its not just one study:

Sharp rise in sexually transmitted diseases in Ireland in past decade
The number of people with common sexually transmitted infections in Ireland has risen sharply over the past decade, a new Europe-wide report shows. The incidence of gonorrhoea in Ireland increased fourfold while the rate of infection with syphilis and chlamydia doubled, according to the report from the European Centre for Disease Control.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-sexually-transmitted-diseases-in-ireland-in-past-decade-1.2360741 )

Rise in STIs because it’s easier to get sex now
The incidence of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in Ireland rose again in 2017, with hundreds more cases of gonorrhea, herpes and chlamydia, according to the HSE’s health protection surveillance centre.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-stis-because-its-easier-to-get-sex-now-3mnk9r0z3 )

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

david75

So you don’t want teens being given sex education but you are alarmed at the increase in STIs generally

You don’t see the disconnect here?

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its not just one study:

Sharp rise in sexually transmitted diseases in Ireland in past decade
The number of people with common sexually transmitted infections in Ireland has risen sharply over the past decade, a new Europe-wide report shows. The incidence of gonorrhoea in Ireland increased fourfold while the rate of infection with syphilis and chlamydia doubled, according to the report from the European Centre for Disease Control.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-sexually-transmitted-diseases-in-ireland-in-past-decade-1.2360741 )

Rise in STIs because it’s easier to get sex now
The incidence of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in Ireland rose again in 2017, with hundreds more cases of gonorrhea, herpes and chlamydia, according to the HSE’s health protection surveillance centre.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-stis-because-its-easier-to-get-sex-now-3mnk9r0z3 )

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

No they were not better.
Women were a mans property and treated like dirt, sexual assaults were always blamed on the woman’s ‘promiscuousness’ while the man got off scot free.
Children were treated disgracefully, particularly when born out of wedlock, they were second class citizens, because of their illegitimacy.

And that’s without even touching on the mother and baby homes, septic tanks, clergy abuse and the Magdalene laundries.
I thank my lucky stars that I wasn’t alive during those times because the situation was horrible. What that generation went through is nothing to hold dear or aspire to.

Rose tinted glasses or what.

ohnonotgmail

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its not just one study:

Sharp rise in sexually transmitted diseases in Ireland in past decade
The number of people with common sexually transmitted infections in Ireland has risen sharply over the past decade, a new Europe-wide report shows. The incidence of gonorrhoea in Ireland increased fourfold while the rate of infection with syphilis and chlamydia doubled, according to the report from the European Centre for Disease Control.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-sexually-transmitted-diseases-in-ireland-in-past-decade-1.2360741 )

Rise in STIs because it’s easier to get sex now
The incidence of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in Ireland rose again in 2017, with hundreds more cases of gonorrhea, herpes and chlamydia, according to the HSE’s health protection surveillance centre.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-stis-because-its-easier-to-get-sex-now-3mnk9r0z3 )

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

even the iona institute disagrees with you on that https://ionainstitute.ie/irelands-teen-pregnancy-rate-plummets/

david75

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No they were not better.
Women were a mans property and treated like dirt, sexual assaults were always blamed on the woman’s ‘promiscuousness’ while the man got off scot free.
Children were treated disgracefully, particularly when born out of wedlock, they were second class citizens, because of their illegitimacy.

And that’s without even touching on the mother and baby homes, septic tanks, clergy abuse and the Magdalene laundries.
I thank my lucky stars that I wasn’t alive during those times because the situation was horrible. What that generation went through is nothing to hold dear or aspire to.

Rose tinted glasses or what.

All of the above seem to be like a golden age in the minds of some people. ‘Let’s go back to that time’. And they’re out there in numbers. It’s baffling if not alarming.

2wsxcde3

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Children were treated disgracefully, particularly when born out of wedlock, they were second class citizens, because of their illegitimacy.

Its a great Ireland now if you only follow the Medias propaganda. Things like the following get very little coverage:

Tusla failed to report 800 allegations of child sexual abuse
Over 800 allegations all relating to child sexual abuse in Laois and Offaly lay dormant in an office in Portlaoise for years — and were only discovered by a Tusla worker in 2015. As a result of this, hundreds of children who alleged they were sexually abused were left in “dangerous and potentially violent situations”
(Source: https://www.buzz.ie/news/tusla-failed-to-report-800-allegations-of-child-sexual-abuse-225107 )

Best not to talk too much about these children. It might detract from the medias propaganda against the dark days of the Catholic church. We have a higher suicide rate now, higher levels of anxiety, higher rates of unplanned pregnancies, higher rates of broken families, higher rates of STIs. While old Ireland wasn't perfect, it was better than what we have now. The statistics bear that out.

david75

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its a great Ireland now if you only follow the Medias propaganda. Things like the following get very little coverage:

Tusla failed to report 800 allegations of child sexual abuse
Over 800 allegations all relating to child sexual abuse in Laois and Offaly lay dormant in an office in Portlaoise for years — and were only discovered by a Tusla worker in 2015. As a result of this, hundreds of children who alleged they were sexually abused were left in “dangerous and potentially violent situations”
(Source: https://www.buzz.ie/news/tusla-failed-to-report-800-allegations-of-child-sexual-abuse-225107 )

Best not to talk too much about these children. It might detract from the medias propaganda against the dark days of the Catholic church. We have a higher suicide rate now, higher levels of anxiety, higher rates of unplanned pregnancies, higher rates of broken families, higher rates of STIs. While old Ireland wasn't perfect, it was better than what we have now. The statistics bear that out.

It wasn’t better. It was worse on every front. We didn’t have media covering any of it nor any organisations keeping records and investigating all these areas as we do now.
The past is immutable. You can view it through all the rose tinted glasses you like but Ireland’s past is horrific and shameful on every front you mentioned. Particularly as it relates to the church and it’s total grip on every aspect of our society back then. So yes, it is the churches fault.

Zubeneschamali

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

We have a higher suicide rate now, higher levels of anxiety, higher rates of unplanned pregnancies, higher rates of broken families, higher rates of STIs. While old Ireland wasn't perfect, it was better than what we have now. The statistics bear that out.

Suicide used to be a mortal sin and strongly denied by everyone in every case.

It is still probably under-reported - the official number of suicides by driving a car fast straight into an obstacle without braking or skidding and no seatbelt is zero, even though suicide is a bigger killer now than road accidents in general, and many such accidents happen every year.

[Deleted User]

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its a great Ireland now if you only follow the Medias propaganda. Things like the following get very little coverage:

Tusla failed to report 800 allegations of child sexual abuse
Over 800 allegations all relating to child sexual abuse in Laois and Offaly lay dormant in an office in Portlaoise for years — and were only discovered by a Tusla worker in 2015. As a result of this, hundreds of children who alleged they were sexually abused were left in “dangerous and potentially violent situations”
(Source: https://www.buzz.ie/news/tusla-failed-to-report-800-allegations-of-child-sexual-abuse-225107 )

Best not to talk too much about these children. It might detract from the medias propaganda against the dark days of the Catholic church. We have a higher suicide rate now, higher levels of anxiety, higher rates of unplanned pregnancies, higher rates of broken families, higher rates of STIs. While old Ireland wasn't perfect, it was better than what we have now. The statistics bear that out.

We have a much more open society now, where thankfully people are not afraid to speak about their issues.
All those things you mention are just spoken about & reported more now.
People are not willing to just hide problems under the carpet anymore.

2wsxcde3

bubblypop wrote: »

We have a much more open society now, where thankfully people are not afraid to speak about their issues.

Not afraid to talk about their issues?

Fine Gael councillor to face disciplinary hearing over comments about Islam
(Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/councillor-brian-murphy-twitter-3589108-Sep2017/ )

The media tells people what they can and can't say nowadays. It is a mortal sin to be pro-life or talk about immigration etc. There is a new church in town, and we are all forced to attend anytime we turn on the TV or radio.

bubblypop wrote: »

All those things you mention are just spoken about & reported more now.

That's a big claim. You'd need to provide proof of that.

SusieBlue

Sorry but this is after getting ridiculous. A politicians comments on Islam has nothing to do with the referendum.
Stop deflecting, it’s seriously annoying.

ohnonotgmail

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Not afraid to talk about their issues?

Fine Gael councillor to face disciplinary hearing over comments about Islam
(Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/councillor-brian-murphy-twitter-3589108-Sep2017/ )

The media tells people what they can and can't say nowadays. It is a mortal sin to be pro-life or talk about immigration etc. There is a new church in town, and we are all forced to attend anytime we turn on the TV or radio.

What does a politician expect to happen when they talk nonsense? and not for the first time in his case.

kylith

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Yet again, here we have people mindlessly repeating anti-Catholic propaganda they've been fed by the media without actually doing their own research:

Teenage pregnancies decline as funding for sex education is cut
The state’s efforts to teach adolescents about sex and make access to contraceptives easier may have encouraged risky behaviour rather than curbed it, the research suggests.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-education-funding-cuts-drive-decline-in-teenage-pregnancies-n67v6mnzr )

You know as well as anyone that thousands of women and girls passed through the doors of those places; 30,000 by some estimates, many of whom never left. And we have statements from women who were around at the time, such as Philomena Lee who herself stated that she had no idea that she was pregnant, had no idea how you got pregnant, and wasn't even entirely sure what 'pregnant' was.

You're either deluded or lying.

Zubeneschamali

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Not afraid to talk about their issues?

Fine Gael councillor to face disciplinary hearing over comments about Islam
(Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/councillor-brian-murphy-twitter-3589108-Sep2017/ )

Well, that's me voting to keep the 8th amendment, so! After all, if a FG councillor can't be a racist in public anymore, we must obviously protect the unborn!

Do I have that right?

NuMarvel

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Its not just one study:

Sharp rise in sexually transmitted diseases in Ireland in past decade
The number of people with common sexually transmitted infections in Ireland has risen sharply over the past decade, a new Europe-wide report shows. The incidence of gonorrhoea in Ireland increased fourfold while the rate of infection with syphilis and chlamydia doubled, according to the report from the European Centre for Disease Control.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-sexually-transmitted-diseases-in-ireland-in-past-decade-1.2360741 )

Rise in STIs because it’s easier to get sex now
The incidence of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in Ireland rose again in 2017, with hundreds more cases of gonorrhea, herpes and chlamydia, according to the HSE’s health protection surveillance centre.
(Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rise-in-stis-because-its-easier-to-get-sex-now-3mnk9r0z3 )

While things weren't perfect in Ireland in the past, all in all they were better than what we have today with contraception and sex ed being thrown at young people sexualizing them more than they want to be. More teen pregnancies, more STIs. We have more of these NOW, not less than in the past.

I don't know why you're referring to articles about STIs when the poster you were replying to was talking teenage pregnancies.

The number of teenagers becoming pregnant has fallen dramatically in the last few decades. In 2013 the rate was its lowest in 50 years, and the numbers have dropped further since.

And, to bring us back on topic, the number of teenagers going to Britain for an abortion has also dropped. As I mentioned earlier.

If you want to reduce or prevent abortions, it's clear that reducing the number of crisis pregnancies is the way to go.

Zubeneschamali

NuMarvel wrote: »

If you want to reduce or prevent abortions, it's clear that reducing the number of crisis pregnancies is the way to go.

But what about bigoted FG councillors who are being oppressed on Twitter?

2wsxcde3

NuMarvel wrote: »

If you want to reduce or prevent abortions, it's clear that reducing the number of crisis pregnancies is the way to go.

I agree. I think we should all be able to agree on that point. That's where the focus should be, not on bringing in abortion.

uptherebels

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

That's a big claim. You'd need to provide proof of that.

You don't believe that years ago in conservative Catholic Ireland where suicide and unplanned pregnancies were sins that these things may have been under reported?

As for someone who routinely ignores being asked to provide evidence of their claims, I feel this quote is appropriate

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

You don't need a link for the obvious.

Call me Al

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I agree. I think we should all be able to agree on that point. That's where the focus should be, not on bringing in abortion.

Well then you should also appreciate that the past approach of giving zero or inadequate sex education to teenagers failed miserably in reducing the numbers of teenage pregnancies.

If history teaches us anything it is that kids are going to experiment,

NuMarvel

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But what about bigoted FG councillors who are being oppressed on Twitter?

It's all Tusla's fault or something. :pac:

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I agree. I think we should all be able to agree on that point. That's where the focus should be, not on bringing in barring access to abortion.

Fixed that for you.