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Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

jimd2

Probably not a popular opinion as most I speak to are fully in favour of Sinn Fein's strategy ref the Irish Language Act in the North.

However I think that they have possibly scored a major own goal in insisting on the imposing of the Irish Language Act. I think they have handed the DUP a Get Out Of Jail ard with regards to Devoltion and, allied to not taking their Westminister seats have allowed the sitution develop where the British government will not act to impose their will on the DUP.

So the DUP seem to be getting what they wanted - a return to direct rule from London and, linked in to Brexit this must be against the overall nationalist.

Regarding the Irish Language Act, in my opinion a lot of the stuff s bells and whistles such as signage and will do very little to really increase the use of Irish in the North. I think Sinn Fein thought they were in a stronger position than they were and thought this would be easier to get than it was.

However I hink the price they look to be payin is too much but they have gone too far and cannot back down now especially with a new leader. So major wn goal from Adams and co..

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charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0219/941725-varadkar-sinn-fein-stormont/

If anything shows the impotence of SF up, outside of Stormont, outside of Westminister and outside of Government here, it is the sight of Mary-Lou on her way into Government Building as a supplicant to Leo and Simon seeking their help in resolving the North's problems that they are unable to fix themselves.

Perhaps she is just calling in to tell the two lads not to bother themselves and that she does not need their help in getting what she wants.

With direct rule she can point too Scotland and especially Wales on a language act and that she will be seriously embarrassing the the British government and the DUP on the subject of same sex marraige in Northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady

charlie14 wrote: »

Perhaps she is just calling in to tell the two lads not to bother themselves and that she does not need their help in getting what she wants.

With direct rule she can point too Scotland and especially Wales on a language act and that she will be seriously embarrassing the the British government and the DUP on the subject of same sex marraige in Northern Ireland.

You can bet had SF pulled what the DUP did last week they would be under serious pressure from all now and publically on the backfoot but never the DUP, regardless of what insult they throw.

jm08

recedite wrote: »

Well what is the experience of Wales and Ireland?

a) Compulsory Irish or Welsh in schools. In Wales the age for this instruction has been increasing. Since 1999 it goes on until GCSEs.
IMO this is a bad idea in Wales and Republic of Ireland, and a terrible idea if anyone tried to copy it in N.Ireland.

Why? Put up a good arguement to the Commissioner as to why it shouldn't be compulsory. We've all open minds.

b) Extra points in the LC exams in Ireland for Gaelgeoirs, and LC Irish a mandatory requirement for some jobs in the civil service and teaching, even when Irish will never be spoken in the job. Another bad idea; it leads to unnecessary discrimination.

You don't have to do that either, though I struggle to see how it is discriminatory if it is a requirement for some jobs. If that is the case, all jobs that requirement certain qualifications are discriminatory.

c) Vast amounts of govt. publications and EU documents required by law to be translated into piles of documents that nobody reads. Is there even one single person in Ireland or Wales who speaks those languages but is not proficient in English? I'd say the last one died well over a hundred years ago.

Nothing wrong with being bilingual. In fact its quite a good thing.

d) State funding for native language TV, Radio, and cultural events in Ireland and Wales. This is a great idea. It puts the general public in touch with the language. But in a positive way, without coercion.
However the Irish language already gets this funding in N.Ireland. If it needs to be increased, that could be arranged without an ILA.

If people don't have the basics of Irish, they are not going to be able to understand what is produced.

Seems, the funding can be withdrawn at a whim (for example, the 50,000 Liofa grant which enabled young people who would not otherwise be able to aford to go to the Donegal Gaeltacht to learn Irish. While the DUP were cutting the Liofa grants because of the need to make cuts (presumable towards the 500 million of the RHI scheme, and fund some bands an extra 98K because they had overrun their budget (having already got a grant of 200K).

The second part of your quote, the bit about Ulster Scots, is only there to provide the illusion of political "balance" IMO. In reality, I don't think unionists would want public money spent on promoting either language.

It was part of the St. Andrews Agreement - of course it was there to provide balance. Althought its a dialect, there is some value in supporting it and there is an Ulster Scots museum in Donegal. https://www.monreaghulsterscotscentre.com/

jm08

recedite wrote: »

How can you attack a language? People can be attacked, property can be attacked. Attacking a concept is just freedom of speech.

Can we have some example of actual oppression?
Can we have some examples of what an ILA would achieve? (that isn't already being done)

You can attack a language by cutting funding for it.

Examples of oppressing Irish would be banning it from usage, not supporting it in the education system, or changing the name of boat named in Irish to English (at a cost to the taxpayer)!

I'm surprised you don't understand why its important. Presumably you don't understand the cultural importance of the Orange Order and Parades to the Protestant/Unionist community in Northern Ireland.

Good loser

Why don't SF attend at Westminster and support the anti-Brexit votes?

Would certainly improve their standing with the Irish electorate north and south.

jm08

Good loser wrote: »

Why don't SF attend at Westminster and support the anti-Brexit votes?

Would certainly improve their standing with the Irish electorate north and south.

The Sinn Fein MPs are elected on the principle that they don't attend Westminister and they are never going to take a vote of allegiance to the Queen.

Don't think their votes would make any difference anyway. The unionist vote only has any influence every 30 or 40 years and that isn't going to last long.

McMurphy

Good loser wrote: »

Why don't SF attend at Westminster and support the anti-Brexit votes?

Gotta love Boards unionists outlook on things.

MLMD recounts a republican slogan to a room full of republicans - holy disgrace.

Paisley shouts unionist slogan in Westminster days before that - Westminster is a foreign parliament so that doesn't concern us.

Then they ask Why don't Sinn Fein attend Brexit talks in Westminster? (See above ^^^)

Would certainly improve their standing with the Irish electorate north and south.

Well no, it wouldn't.

A large core of their voters specifically vote on the understanding they will not take their seats in Westminster.

The ones who don't vote for them are hardly gonna run flocking to them for suddenly taking seats in a foreign parliament that doesn't concern them

The Irish language act is very reminiscent of people wanting to see Foster step aside to facilitate an enquiry.

"SF scuppered an assembly over their insistence on an ILA" - Ummmmm wasn't just SF that wanted the ILA to be introduced, it was 5 party's (50/90).

Then they'll go off on a different spiel about Irish being compulsory/unimportant anyway.

Had to keep up with.

seamus

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0219/941725-varadkar-sinn-fein-stormont/

If anything shows the impotence of SF up, outside of Stormont, outside of Westminister and outside of Government here, it is the sight of Mary-Lou on her way into Government Building as a supplicant to Leo and Simon seeking their help in resolving the North's problems that they are unable to fix themselves.

To be fair to Mary-Lou, she is not personally in power in the North, and my understanding is that the GFA agreement requires the input of the Irish and UK governments on cross-border matters and governance.

So she can't personally interfere in the process, and must do so via proxy of the Irish government.

That's my understanding anyway.

Red_Wake

seamus wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0219/941725-varadkar-sinn-fein-stormont/

If anything shows the impotence of SF up, outside of Stormont, outside of Westminister and outside of Government here, it is the sight of Mary-Lou on her way into Government Building as a supplicant to Leo and Simon seeking their help in resolving the North's problems that they are unable to fix themselves.

To be fair to Mary-Lou, she is not personally in power in the North, and my understanding is that the GFA agreement requires the input of the Irish and UK governments on cross-border matters and governance.

So she can't personally interfere in the process, and must do so via proxy of the Irish government.

That's my understanding anyway.

SF claim to be an all Ireland party - as such she can be expected to speak on behalf of SF in such matters imo. Gerry Adams was heavily involved in NI even after he was elected as a TD.

seamus

True, but in this specific matter - power sharing negotiations - she doesn't have any power to formally get involved and requires the Irish government to do so. That's not to say she's not on the phone to Michelle O'Neill 20 times a day, but she has no authority to speak to Arlene on the matter, whereas Leo does.

I may be wrong though.

blanch152

seamus wrote: »

To be fair to Mary-Lou, she is not personally in power in the North, and my understanding is that the GFA agreement requires the input of the Irish and UK governments on cross-border matters and governance.

So she can't personally interfere in the process, and must do so via proxy of the Irish government.

That's my understanding anyway.

To be fair, she had the opportunity to go into government, but took the arrogant stance at the time that SF would only go into government as the larger party.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Gotta love Boards unionists outlook on things.

MLMD recounts a republican slogan to a room full of republicans - holy disgrace.

Paisley shouts unionist slogan in Westminster days before that - Westminster is a foreign parliament so that doesn't concern us.

.

Who said the bit in bold? I certainly don't recall anyone on here posting that. Do you have a link?

Was there a thread opened and did anyone defend Paisley?

blanch152

seamus wrote: »

True, but in this specific matter - power sharing negotiations - she doesn't have any power to formally get involved and requires the Irish government to do so. That's not to say she's not on the phone to Michelle O'Neill 20 times a day, but she has no authority to speak to Arlene on the matter, whereas Leo does.

I may be wrong though.

That is exactly my point. By SF's refusal to enter government as a minority party in the Dail, taken with their refusal to take up their seats in Westminister, they are left without a voice and without influence, mostly because of their own decisions.

Chips Lovell

Was there really an opportunity there though? Fine Gael dislike Sinn Fein as much as Sinn Fein dislike Fine Gael. I doubt Kenny had Gerry Adams on speed dial.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

That is exactly my point. By SF's refusal to enter government as a minority party in the Dail, taken with their refusal to take up their seats in Westminister, they are left without a voice and without influence, mostly because of their own decisions.

Yet, nothing is happening about northern Ireland without meetings and consultations with them.
They got the DUP to agree to terms to get the Executive back only for the backroom bigots to rebel, but you can be sure that is the template for any agreement going forward.

No power eh? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

blanch152

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Was there really an opportunity there though? Fine Gael dislike Sinn Fein as much as Sinn Fein dislike Fine Gael. I doubt Kenny had Gerry Adams on speed dial.

If Sinn Fein had been clever, they would have put themselves forward to FF as the alternative to supporting a minority FG government.

Bellview

blanch152 wrote:

If Sinn Fein had been clever, they would have put themselves forward to FF as the alternative to supporting a minority FG government.

The one controllable item that sinn fein have is their Westminster mps. If they sent them over it would heap pressure on may to do something with Arlene as disruption in the commons is her only concern.
Sinn fein like to complain and blame so this is one opportunity for them to do something new

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Who said the bit in bold? I certainly don't recall anyone on here posting that. Do you have a link?

Was there a thread opened and did anyone defend Paisley?

Yes to both, although I wouldn't say 'defend' paisley - more turn a blind eye due to him saying it in a foreign parliament that doesn't concern us - the same foreign parliament that they ask why SF don't end their abstentionsm policy and take their seats.

recedite

jm08 wrote: »

Why? Put up a good arguement to the Commissioner as to why it shouldn't be compulsory. We've all open minds.

Because its the forced imposition of one person's culture on another person who comes from a different background.
If you can't see why that would be a total disaster in N. Ireland, you're beyond redemption I'm afraid. Its bad enough to have this going on in RoI and Wales.

jm08 wrote: »

You don't have to do that either, though I struggle to see how it is discriminatory if it is a requirement for some jobs. If that is the case, all jobs that requirement certain qualifications are discriminatory.

You don't understand the difference between discrimination and illegal discrimination. If I was hiring a carpenter, I would obviously be discriminating between a person who had carpentry skills and somebody who did not. But I would not be allowed to discriminate on certain other grounds such as religion, gender, sexual orientation, race.
In NI anti-discrimination laws are more advanced than in RoI or in Britain, because they also include political affiliation as one of the grounds.

So while language is not specifically mentioned, the whole world and his dog knows that the Irish language is tied to one side in the historical/cultural/religious conflict, and the Ulster Scots dialect is tied to the other side.

jm08 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with being bilingual. In fact its quite a good thing.
If people don't have the basics of Irish, they are not going to be able to understand what is produced.

Of course. And there is nothing stopping them from learning it. If they want to.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Yes to both, although I wouldn't say 'defend' paisley - more turn a blind eye due to him saying it in a foreign parliament that doesn't concern us - the same foreign parliament that they ask why SF don't end their abstentionsm policy and take their seats.

It is a foreign parliament to me because I am from the South.

It is not a foreign parliament to the citizens of the UK in the North who voted for Sinn Fein.

I didn't see the thread, nor did I read much of the remark by Paisley, but if someone made a sectarian remark, that is very wrong. As I have pointed out before, the reason threads about Unionist bad behaviour never last long is because there is nobody defending Unionist bad behaviour. By the time most of us have come along, the thread has disappeared to the second or third page, with the half-dozen posts all condemning the Unionist sectarian behaviour.

The reason SF threads get all the activity is that some insist on defending the indefensible.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yet, nothing is happening about northern Ireland without meetings and consultations with them.
They got the DUP to agree to terms to get the Executive back only for the backroom bigots to rebel, but you can be sure that is the template for any agreement going forward.

No power eh? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes, no power.

Ultimately, the decisions will now be made in London, with Dublin being involved. As I said already, Sinn Fein are supplicants in that regard.

charlie14

Bellview wrote: »

The one controllable item that sinn fein have is their Westminster mps. If they sent them over it would heap pressure on may to do something with Arlene as disruption in the commons is her only concern.
Sinn fein like to complain and blame so this is one opportunity for them to do something new

Their are only two things "new" that would achieve as regards SF.
Reneging on their pre-election commitments not to take their seats in Westminster and swear allegiance to the British Crown.

Other than reneging on those commitments,either would make the slightest difference to the political situation in Westminster.

The House of Commons consists of 650 seats.
Conservatives have 316, DUP 10 and SF 6.

The mathematics is self evident.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

It is a foreign parliament to me because I am from the South.

And it is seen as a foreign parliament by Irish Republicans - of which I'm pretty sure Sinn Fein consider themselves.

Sinn F is an Irish republican political party active in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Its central aim is for a united Ireland. It opposes Westminster’s jurisdiction in Northern Ireland, and its oath to the Queen, so its MPs abstain from sitting in parliament

In the 2017 election, it won seven seats at Westminster, all of them abstentionist. The MPs work for their constituents, and every so often visit Westminster to use its facilities and meet with government ministers, but refuse to sit in an institution they do not see as legitimate.

.

This isn't news, and you dont seem to respect their stance. Unsurprising - but that's democracy.

It is not a foreign parliament to the citizens of the UK in the North who voted for Sinn Fein.

Are you basing this opinion on behalf of the people who voted for them, or from a constitutional nationalist view

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, no power.

Ultimately, the decisions will now be made in London, with Dublin being involved. As I said already, Sinn Fein are supplicants in that regard.

I wouldn`t be that sure on them being as supplicant or having as little power as you are painting them.
Today`s headline of Mary Lou McDonald reiterating there would be no re-forming of Stormont`s power-sharing Executive without an Irish Language Act leaves both the Dublin government, and especially the London government (with their DUP partners) between a rock and the proverbial.

FrancieBrady

charlie14 wrote: »

I wouldn`t be that sure on them being as supplicant or having as little power as you are painting them.
Today`s headline of Mary Lou McDonald reiterating there would be no re-forming of Stormont`s power-sharing Executive without an Irish Language Act leaves both the Dublin government, and especially the London government (with their DUP partners) between a rock and the proverbial.

Absolutely.
Leo wouldn't fart in the general direction of northern Ireland without consultation with SF first (back channel or front)
It would simply be stupid for him to try.

Likewise Westminster.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Absolutely.
Leo wouldn't fart in the general direction of northern Ireland without consultation with SF first (back channel or front)
It would simply be stupid for him to try.

Likewise Westminster.

Who will be making the final decisions, having heard the requests from the various people calling to see him? That will be Leo.

Is the new SF motto "In Leo we trust"?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Who will be making the final decisions, having heard the requests from the various people calling to see him? That will be Leo.

Is the new SF motto "In Leo we trust"?

What decision will Leo be making that SF wont have an input into?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What decision will Leo be making that SF wont have an input into?

I have said that SF will have an input, they can come and talk to Leo and make requests and seek his favour, but ultimately, the Irish government and the Taoiseach will make whatever decisions they feel are best for the country. All of the decisions will be theirs.

Sometimes, that will be exactly what Sinn Fein have humbly asked for, other times Sinn Fein won't agree, other times Sinn Fein will pretend that the outcome is what they requested, that is what not having the power to make decisions gives you.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I have said that SF will have an input, they can come and talk to Leo and make requests and seek his favour, but ultimately, the Irish government and the Taoiseach will make whatever decisions they feel are best for the country. All of the decisions will be theirs.

Sometimes, that will be exactly what Sinn Fein have humbly asked for, other times Sinn Fein won't agree, other times Sinn Fein will pretend that the outcome is what they requested, that is what not having the power to make decisions gives you.

Honestly what a load of bitter old cobblers.
Do you have any freaking idea what the GFA is, individual political parties don't have the power to make decisions pertinent to it.

That was to safeguard against the decades of a 'political party' making all the decisions in favour of itself and it's religion.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Honestly what a load of bitter old cobblers.
Do you have any freaking idea what the GFA is, individual political parties don't have the power to make decisions pertinent to it.

That was to safeguard against the decades of a 'political party' making all the decisions in favour of itself and it's religion.

I really don't understand where you get the bitterness from. However, I am glad that you finally accept that Sinn Fein don't have any power in relation to the GFA.

On the other hand, the Irish government does. For all intents and purposes, that is Leo and his bunch of merry men and women. So SF need to curry their favour if they want decisions. That is the point I am making.