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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Call me Al

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

No ones suggesting they have to go to trial. Simply file a report at a garda station that they have been raped and would like an abortion. The women need take no further action beyond that.

But obviously pro-choicers don't trust women enough to tell the truth.

Once a crime is reported it has to be investigated.
So no, it's not remotely the box-ticking exercise you are intent to portray it as.

Beethoven9th

Doesnt the availability of emergency contraceptive pill, the Morning After Pill make some of this debate academic. ?

January

Beethoven9th wrote: »

Doesnt the availability of emergency contraceptive pill, the Morning After Pill make some of this debate academic. ?

It's not 100% effective and it's not always suitable to take.

ohnonotgmail

Beethoven9th wrote: »

Doesnt the availability of emergency contraceptive pill, the Morning After Pill make some of this debate academic. ?

January wrote: »

It's not 100% effective and it's not always suitable to take.

and it also has a limited timeframe in which it works.

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JDD

Incidentally, i'm against abortion in cases of rape as the baby in question is completely innocent. But i think Simon Coveney was right, it would be possible to set up a system where genuine rape victims would report to gardai that they have been raped, and assuming nothing obviously out of place with their story exists,

I think that's a little different to attending a "rape committee" and engaging in what amounts to a cross examination. You're suggesting you just go the local garda station and report the rape, and get the garda super to sign a form.

To be honest, if I was in a situation where I couldn't travel to the UK, or couldn't order pills online, i.e. if I was an immigrant in a detention centre, in jail, or under the care of the HSE (being a ward of court or a minor in care) I wouldn't even think twice about going to Garda Super and saying I was raped. It would be p*ss easy to say I was raped and don't want to officially report it because, oh I dunno, I was drunk and I don't think I would get a conviction and I am already so traumatized a rape trial would send me over the edge. Job done.

When we say "trust women" we mean trust women not to use abortion as a contraceptive, that they are making a difficult (or sometimes not so difficult) choice that is the best interests of their health and their welfare. Not "trust women" to not abuse an abhorrent and judgemental process designed to find out whether they've been a "good girl" and haven't been engaging in consensual sex. In fact I'd "trust women" to absolutely abuse that system. I'd campaign for them to abuse. I'd run classes on how to abuse that system.

2wsxcde3

Call me Al wrote: »

Once a crime is reported it has to be investigated.
So no, it's not remotely the box-ticking exercise you are intent to portray it as.

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying. The system would always lean towards giving the woman the benefit of the doubt.

This idea that a woman shouldn't have to file a report is nonsense. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman.

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

2wsxcde3

JDD wrote: »

To be honest, if I was in a situation where I couldn't travel to the UK, or couldn't order pills online, i.e. if I was an immigrant in a detention centre, in jail, or under the care of the HSE (being a ward of court or a minor in care) I wouldn't even think twice about going to Garda Super and saying I was raped. It would be p*ss easy to say I was raped and don't want to officially report it because, oh I dunno, I was drunk and I don't think I would get a conviction and I am already so traumatized a rape trial would send me over the edge. Job done.

When we say "trust women" we mean trust women not to use abortion as a contraceptive, that they are making a difficult (or sometimes not so difficult) choice that is the best interests of their health and their welfare. Not "trust women" to not abuse an abhorrent and judgemental process designed to find out whether they've been a "good girl" and haven't been engaging in consensual sex. In fact I'd "trust women" to absolutely abuse that system. I'd campaign for them to abuse. I'd run classes on how to abuse that system.

So you're saying other women are as dishonest as you?

kylith

Beethoven9th wrote: »

Doesnt the availability of emergency contraceptive pill, the Morning After Pill make some of this debate academic. ?

It’s not 100% effective, and has a window of only 72hours

Candamir

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying. The system would always lean towards giving the woman the benefit of the doubt.

This idea that a woman shouldn't have to file a report is nonsense. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman.

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

Rape is a crime n this country. It’s not up to the victim to decide wether to ‘press charges’ or not. She is only a witness to the crime. It’s not up to her to ‘take further action’ or not. So your idea doesn’t really work. Not surprisingly.

January

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying. The system would always lean towards giving the woman the benefit of the doubt.

This idea that a woman shouldn't have to file a report is nonsense. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman.

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

The idea that a woman should have to file a report is nonsense. Why should she have to tell anyone of her decision to abort her rapists baby? Why must she seek permission? What if the Garda doesn't believe her?

[Deleted User]

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman..

So now you want Gardai trained in counselling deciding whether a woman has been raped or not?
Gardai have enough to be doing without another ridiculous waste of their time.

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2wsxcde3

Candamir wrote: »

Rape is a crime n this country. It’s not up to the victim to decide wether to ‘press charges’ or not. She is only a witness to the crime. It’s not up to her to ‘take further action’ or not. So your idea doesn’t really work. Not surprisingly.

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

Call me Al

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying. The system would always lean towards giving the woman the benefit of the doubt.

This idea that a woman shouldn't have to file a report is nonsense. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman.

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

So what's the point then if it is just a box ticking process? Why put a woman through that? To see if she'd have the nerve to lie to a garda? Is it to try and filter out the liars, or just those who are weak, because the latter is what a law like that would do.
Do you envisage she has to make a full statement of the circumstances or say the line and that's it?
Eta I wonder does any man have to jump through hoops like those proposed here to access medical care deemed standard care in the rest of the developed world.

[Deleted User]

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying.

Wasting more police time, why report a crime & then say you won't assist the Investigation?
Why should a superintendent decide if someone is lying? & how exactly would he be qualified to do that?
& why can't the doctor & the woman just do this themselves, no need to involve Gardai at all

kylith

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

We just realise that there is no way to allow abortion in cases of raw without it either being traumatic for raped women or functionally no different to abortion in request.

January

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

No, we see rape victims as just that, victims who shouldn't have to jump through hoops to make a decision about their own body, same as any woman shouldn't. Some women do not want to talk about their rape to anyone and they shouldn't be forced to, to obtain an abortion.

You're being absolutely ridiculous.

2wsxcde3

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You mean the scene they made up to sell the movie? Seems like some people will believe anything they see in a Hollywood movie:

The film employs artistic license with the real life events. Sister Hildegard McNulty, the principal antagonist in the film, is depicted as having met with journalist Sixsmith after he started working on the story. In reality, McNulty died in 1995, and Sixsmith only began his investigation in 2004. The final scene in which a wheelchair-bound McNulty chastises Philomena for carnality is also artistic license.
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomena_(film) )

Mr. CooL ICE

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

No veils falling here. The entire pro-choice argument is to give women the choice to end their pregnancies. Nobody has said otherwise.

Candamir

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

Well this is getting quite ridiculous! So murderers should only be procescuted if their victim wants to press charges..... no...wait. That won’t work either

For the record, I think that the solution that the citizens assembly and the oireachtas committee came up with works pretty well tbh. I’d go with that.
And no. I don’t want a system designed for rape victims. I’d like one that works for everyone.

Eponymous

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

No ones suggesting they have to go to trial. Simply file a report at a garda station that they have been raped and would like an abortion. The women need take no further action beyond that.

But obviously pro-choicers don't trust women enough to tell the truth.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying. The system would always lean towards giving the woman the benefit of the doubt.

This idea that a woman shouldn't have to file a report is nonsense. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman.

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

Indeed...

If you're truly giving women the "benefit of the doubt", it should be sufficient for a women to go to their GP, who is better qualified to make a clinical decision as well as, if necessary, refer for counselling with someone who didn't just take a two day course in Templemore.

[Deleted User]

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

Why would it be a female Garda?
And so you not think Gardai have enough to do?
This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have heard yet.
Just more shaming women...

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ohnonotgmail

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

You mean the scene they made up to sell the movie? Seems like some people will believe anything they see in a Hollywood movie:

The film employs artistic license with the real life events. Sister Hildegard McNulty, the principal antagonist in the film, is depicted as having met with journalist Sixsmith after he started working on the story. In reality, McNulty died in 1995, and Sixsmith only began his investigation in 2004. The final scene in which a wheelchair-bound McNulty chastises Philomena for carnality is also artistic license.
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomena_(film) )

we have had slut shaming on this thread. In 2018. There may have been dramatic licence involved but you are naive if you think such things did not happen.

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2wsxcde3

....... wrote: »

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Lol. Next you'll be saying how terrible Father Jack was for his drinking and shouting.

eviltwin

With all due respect to the gardai they aren't trained to counsel rape victims. It's not their job. I used to work in a domestic violence service, rape was a common experience of the women I dealt with. Some ended up pregnant as a result. They would have a hard time proving they were raped, not all victims are able to go to the gardai and if we make that a condition it's not going to help anyone.

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

You’re actually totally delusional.

As I said to you on another thread, it’s as if you are throwing as much sh*t at the wall as possible and hoping something will stick.