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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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JDD

Wouldn't abortion on demand in this country only facilitate abusive men forcing the woman to have an abortion against their will?

Em. You can buy pills on the internet. It's the first choice that comes up on google. WAY easier to order the pills and watch your partner take them, then march them to clinic and wait in a waiting room hoping she doesn't report you to the doctor.

So yes, it would happen anyway.

Next.

Neyite

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Bury them in the angels plot. Some hospitals in Ireland have one and offer parents to bury their miscarried baby there, or the parents can take the baby home. Its open to the parents.

Give me the name of ONE hospital that offers this for miscarriages at 8 weeks gestation. Just one.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

... flush their remains down the toilet into raw sewerage. I don't think that's a good idea. It lowers human dignity.

Explain to me how a woman who miscarries in the first trimester disposes of the week-long bleeding, clots and foetal tissue, given that hospitals send them to miscarry at home. I'm very interested. Is there a miscarriage receptacle? Please explain to me how over the course of a week of bleeding a woman can prevent that pregnancy being dripped down the toilet every time she pees or poos. How does a woman stop it mingling with the raw waste coming out of her body at the same time?

If the local hospital have a policy to not even give you an appointment until your bleeding is finished, what or how does a woman deal with the remains ethically?

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I wonder how distressing it is to people who have had miscarriages to hear their loss dismissed as "just a bunch of cells".

I can tell you if you like. I had very little distress compared to some of the other stuff people have come out with. What was distressing was that the early pregnancy care I should have received was not offered to me due to the impact the 8th has on maternity policy.

I am angry. Angry that I could have gotten treatment that is available to women in other countries that could have potentially saved even one of my lost pregnancies and given me another child. I am angry that they make women have three miscarriages in a row before they even put her on a year long waiting list for investigations. I'm angry that they don't test foetal tissue so parents can know if there is a reason for miscarriage. I'm angry because the 8th directly affected MY family, my losses, all of which were much wanted pregnancies because of hospital policy based on the 8th.

Zubeneschamali

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That is, of course, the point.

2wsxcde3

JDD wrote: »

I'd be the first one in line breaking that law - and I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over it.

So you'd lie to gardai? I don't know how pro-choice people can even talk to each other if they happy admit they would lie about being raped.

eviltwin

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Wouldn't abortion on demand in this country only facilitate abusive men forcing the woman to have an abortion against their will?

They do that anyway.

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NuMarvel

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Wouldn't abortion on demand in this country only facilitate abusive men forcing the woman to have an abortion against their will?

I haven't heard of this being the case in other jurisdictions that allow abortion on request, which is unsurprising because the point is that it is the woman who makes the choice, not anyone else.

Eponymous

eviltwin wrote: »

With all due respect to the gardai they aren't trained to counsel rape victims. It's not their job. I used to work in a domestic violence service, rape was a common experience of the women I dealt with. Some ended up pregnant as a result. They would have a hard time proving they were raped, not all victims are able to go to the gardai and if we make that a condition it's not going to help anyone.

Assuming of course that the poster actually wants to help anyone.

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2wsxcde3

eviltwin wrote: »

I used to work in a domestic violence service, rape was a common experience of the women I dealt with. Some ended up pregnant as a result.

Wouldn't abortion on demand in this country only facilitate abusive men forcing the woman to have an abortion against their will?

JDD

So you're saying other women are as dishonest as you?

Eh. Yes?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking.

Do I think a person, who thinks a particular law is an overwhelming affront to how a civilized society should work, should break that law, while acknowledging the consequences? Yes. Of course. Wouldn't you?

I'd be the first one in line breaking that law - and I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over it. I've mentioned my reasons for seeking a termination in a previous post should I get pregnant again. As I said, if I couldn't travel or procure the online pill, I would have absolutely zero moral qualms in reporting a fake rape to Gardaí. It'd be a terrible waste of taxpayers money in investigating a fake rape, but honestly that's not really my fault, it's the fault of people advocating for such a ridiculous system. I can't imagine that if they came to the conclusion I made a fake report, the DPP would be that bothered in pursuing a case against me, taking a mother from her three kids where a good chunk, if not the majority of the country, would agree with my reasoning. They have limited resources and easier cases to take.

As an added bones, if a systemic abuse of the system turned it into an absurdity and it was repealed, I would have contributed to saving a traumatized rape victim from being forced to relive their ordeal with a stranger against their will. A win all round. I would sleep very easy.

SusieBlue

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

You’re actually totally delusional.

As I said to you on another thread, it’s as if you are throwing as much sh*t at the wall as possible and hoping something will stick.

eviltwin

With all due respect to the gardai they aren't trained to counsel rape victims. It's not their job. I used to work in a domestic violence service, rape was a common experience of the women I dealt with. Some ended up pregnant as a result. They would have a hard time proving they were raped, not all victims are able to go to the gardai and if we make that a condition it's not going to help anyone.

2wsxcde3

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Lol. Next you'll be saying how terrible Father Jack was for his drinking and shouting.

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ohnonotgmail

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

You mean the scene they made up to sell the movie? Seems like some people will believe anything they see in a Hollywood movie:

The film employs artistic license with the real life events. Sister Hildegard McNulty, the principal antagonist in the film, is depicted as having met with journalist Sixsmith after he started working on the story. In reality, McNulty died in 1995, and Sixsmith only began his investigation in 2004. The final scene in which a wheelchair-bound McNulty chastises Philomena for carnality is also artistic license.
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomena_(film) )

we have had slut shaming on this thread. In 2018. There may have been dramatic licence involved but you are naive if you think such things did not happen.

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This post has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

Why would it be a female Garda?
And so you not think Gardai have enough to do?
This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have heard yet.
Just more shaming women...

Eponymous

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

No ones suggesting they have to go to trial. Simply file a report at a garda station that they have been raped and would like an abortion. The women need take no further action beyond that.

But obviously pro-choicers don't trust women enough to tell the truth.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying. The system would always lean towards giving the woman the benefit of the doubt.

This idea that a woman shouldn't have to file a report is nonsense. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman.

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

Indeed...

If you're truly giving women the "benefit of the doubt", it should be sufficient for a women to go to their GP, who is better qualified to make a clinical decision as well as, if necessary, refer for counselling with someone who didn't just take a two day course in Templemore.

Candamir

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

Well this is getting quite ridiculous! So murderers should only be procescuted if their victim wants to press charges..... no...wait. That won’t work either

For the record, I think that the solution that the citizens assembly and the oireachtas committee came up with works pretty well tbh. I’d go with that.
And no. I don’t want a system designed for rape victims. I’d like one that works for everyone.

Mr. CooL ICE

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

No veils falling here. The entire pro-choice argument is to give women the choice to end their pregnancies. Nobody has said otherwise.

2wsxcde3

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You mean the scene they made up to sell the movie? Seems like some people will believe anything they see in a Hollywood movie:

The film employs artistic license with the real life events. Sister Hildegard McNulty, the principal antagonist in the film, is depicted as having met with journalist Sixsmith after he started working on the story. In reality, McNulty died in 1995, and Sixsmith only began his investigation in 2004. The final scene in which a wheelchair-bound McNulty chastises Philomena for carnality is also artistic license.
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomena_(film) )

January

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

No, we see rape victims as just that, victims who shouldn't have to jump through hoops to make a decision about their own body, same as any woman shouldn't. Some women do not want to talk about their rape to anyone and they shouldn't be forced to, to obtain an abortion.

You're being absolutely ridiculous.

kylith

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

We just realise that there is no way to allow abortion in cases of raw without it either being traumatic for raped women or functionally no different to abortion in request.

[Deleted User]

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying.

Wasting more police time, why report a crime & then say you won't assist the Investigation?
Why should a superintendent decide if someone is lying? & how exactly would he be qualified to do that?
& why can't the doctor & the woman just do this themselves, no need to involve Gardai at all

Call me Al

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying. The system would always lean towards giving the woman the benefit of the doubt.

This idea that a woman shouldn't have to file a report is nonsense. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman.

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

So what's the point then if it is just a box ticking process? Why put a woman through that? To see if she'd have the nerve to lie to a garda? Is it to try and filter out the liars, or just those who are weak, because the latter is what a law like that would do.
Do you envisage she has to make a full statement of the circumstances or say the line and that's it?
Eta I wonder does any man have to jump through hoops like those proposed here to access medical care deemed standard care in the rest of the developed world.

2wsxcde3

Candamir wrote: »

Rape is a crime n this country. It’s not up to the victim to decide wether to ‘press charges’ or not. She is only a witness to the crime. It’s not up to her to ‘take further action’ or not. So your idea doesn’t really work. Not surprisingly.

It can be legislated for. New legislation happens every day.

Now the veil is falling. Pro-choicers see rape victims as a tool to get something that they themselves want - abortion on demand. They dont want any system designed specifically for rape victims, a system that would actually help them where they could talk to a trained female garda in counseling.

.......

This post has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman..

So now you want Gardai trained in counselling deciding whether a woman has been raped or not?
Gardai have enough to be doing without another ridiculous waste of their time.

January

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. Just like a GP forms an opinion as to whether a woman should have an abortion, the local superintendent forms an opinion that there are no glaring inconsistencies in the womans story to suspect she is lying. The system would always lean towards giving the woman the benefit of the doubt.

This idea that a woman shouldn't have to file a report is nonsense. We're talking about a half hour discussion with a specially trained garda officer trained in counselling. It could actually be a helpful experience to the woman.

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

The idea that a woman should have to file a report is nonsense. Why should she have to tell anyone of her decision to abort her rapists baby? Why must she seek permission? What if the Garda doesn't believe her?