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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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suicide_circus

Loving the pettiness folks

Ken.

suicide_circus wrote: »

Loving the pettiness folks

Mod-If you've nothing constructive to add keep walking.

Annasopra

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's an emotive subject, but just look at the mud slinging in this thread,it's turning into a mob rule again like the gay marriage vote,silencing debate which is never good.Be informed and vote with your conscience, after a lot of thought it has to be no for me

Nobody is silencing anyone. This tactic was used in 2015. It wasnt true. The vast vast majority of marriage equality supporters were not silencing or bullying anyone.

pleas advice

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nobody is silencing anyone. This tactic was used in 2015. It wasnt true. The vast vast majority of marriage equality supporters were not silencing or bullying anyone.

dehumanising the fetus,
demonising the pro life as backwards, hate-filled misogynists, religious control freaks,
just so you can avoid, not even accepting the fact that the fetus is a living, human entity, but avoid accepting the fact that a sizeable minority of the population view it as such...

is it any wonder that theres so few pro life posting, if they're jumped on and hounded out of the thread for even opening their mouths

January

Nobody has been hounded out of the thread, in fact, some of the most consistent voices on this thread are the 'pro-life' ones.

NuMarvel

Beethoven9th wrote: »

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

Sounds reasonable to me !

Those 43 words have resulted in four, soon to be five, referendums, numerous high court and supreme court cases, multiple breaches of internationally recognised human rights, the censoring of information, and the prevention of someone having an abortion abroad. It applies to all pregnancies, not just those where the woman is considering abortion, but ironically doesn't apply to all unborn, and actually ended up legalising abortion in Ireland; i.e. the exact opposite of what it was supposed to do.

If that's your criteria for a reasonable constitutional provision, I'd hate to see how bad one has to be to make you say it's an unreasonable one!

suicide_circus

Conspectus wrote: »

Mod-If you've nothing constructive to add keep walking.

My point I suppose is the inevitable descent of the debate into petty oneupmanship and personal jibes but maybe it's unavoidable with a topic this raw

amdublin

I think if anything it is the pro choice side that has been silenced in the past. For too long abortion has been a shameful thing that you did not speak about. And in fact so shameful that you are not allowed do it in your own country. You are however allowed get on a plane ride to the country next to us and have one there.

Women are now speaking up. We will not be silenced. We are not just incubators for the purpose of keeping foetuses alive.

We are human beings that deserve the right to choose what to do with our own body.

We are not forcing anyone to have an abortion and equally no one should want to insist we carry and deliver a baby on Irish soil.

But God forbid the little woman keeps going with the idea of having an abortion well away off to England with you ya little hussy. Am I putting words in pro birthers here?? Well I am sorry but as woman in Ireland I am telling you that's what it feels like to be a woman in Ireland today. Tough, deal with it (I believe were the words of a pro lifer or something to this effect on this thread earlier today??)

swampgas

pleas advice wrote: »

dehumanising the fetus,
demonising the pro life as backwards, hate-filled misogynists, religious control freaks,
just so you can avoid, not even accepting the fact that the fetus is a living, human entity, but avoid accepting the fact that a sizeable minority of the population view it as such...

There will always be a sizeable minority opposed to any change, and opposed to any progress. Even with topics less divisive than abortion, like contraception, divorce and same sex marriage, you had a big old minority who were against change, and against progress, and who howled about how they were being characterised as backwards and against progress - well, as it turns out that was the unfortunate reality that these people fought not to see.

That's the way it goes - there is always a rearguard who would rather perpetuate the status quo despite new knowledge and understanding.

You're on the wrong side of history is all.

pleas advice

all good points, but

amdublin wrote: »

We are human beings that deserve the right to choose what to do with our own body.

We are not forcing anyone to have an abortion...

there *is* another body in the equation, can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

ELM327

pleas advice wrote: »

dehumanising the fetus,
demonising the pro life as backwards, hate-filled misogynists, religious control freaks,
just so you can avoid, not even accepting the fact that the fetus is a living, human entity, but avoid accepting the fact that a sizeable minority of the population view it as such...

is it any wonder that theres so few pro life posting, if they're jumped on and hounded out of the thread for even opening their mouths

You can't dehumanize a non-sentient collection of cells.

Oh and the anti choice side is a backward hate filled misogynistic religious control freak view. Why else do they desire to control women's bodies and remove their autonomy.

ELM327

pleas advice wrote: »

all good points, but

there *is* another body in the equation, can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

What about semen?
What about period blood - which may contain an ovum.

Should these be saved and given equal status to the life of a real live sentient human?:rolleyes:

ELM327

swampgas wrote: »

There will always be a sizeable minority opposed to any change, and opposed to any progress. Even with topics less divisive than abortion, like contraception, divorce and same sex marriage, you had a big old minority who were against change, and against progress, and who howled about how they were being characterised as backwards and against progress - well, as it turns out that was the unfortunate reality that these people fought not to see.

That's the way it goes - there is always a rearguard who would rather perpetuate the status quo despite new knowledge and understanding.

You're on the wrong side of history is all.

Exactly.
Like the pro segregationists in 1960's america. The pro life side will be looked back on with incomprehension.

pleas advice

suicide_circus wrote: »

My point I suppose is the inevitable descent of the debate into petty oneupmanship and personal jibes but maybe it's unavoidable with a topic this raw

yeah...

BabysCoffee

The great thing for the so called "pro-lifers" when the 8th is repealed is that not a whole lot will change for them. They won't have an abortion forced on them. That's because of this great thing called CHOICE.

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

all good points, but

there *is* another body in the equation, can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

Please stop.

Stop equating me, a live human woman, to a (less than) 12 week old foetus.

If you think you are equal to that then fine don't have an abortion. Or if you are male than come to a decision in collaboration and agreement with your partner that she won't have abortion.

But just stop telling me what to do.

Who am I to dictate to any woman that in her own personal circumstance she must or must not have the baby. Abortion is a private matter. And reminder, one that happens every day in England - why are you trying to stop it in Ireland? It's like you are trying to punish someone that if they insist on an abortion well they can jump over hurdles for it.

Please stay out of other people's sex lives and the resultant pregnancies. They are not intruding on yours.

pleas advice

BabysCoffee wrote: »

The great thing for the so called "pro-lifers" when the 8th is repealed is that not a whole lot will change for them. They won't have an abortion forced on them. That's because of this great thing called CHOICE.

can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

There is no protection now. Irish abortions happen every single day in England.

If Irish abortions were to happen in Ireland....the sky would not fall down. All that would change is the location.

Why can't you give the same protection/rights you want for a foetus to your living sisters, your living wife, your living neighbours. Who are you to dictate that this farce must continue of forcing women who want an abortion to go off on a plane.

Andrew Beef

Quote from amdublin (apologies, I butchered the quote function!):

Please stop.

Stop equating me, a live human woman, to a (less than) 12 week old foetus.

If you think you are equal to that then fine don't have an abortion. Or if you are male than come to a decision in collaboration and agreement with your partner that she won't have abortion.

But just stop telling me what to do.

Who am I to dictate to any woman that in her own personal circumstance she must or must not have the baby. Abortion is a private matter. And reminder, one that happens every day in England - why are you trying to stop it in Ireland? It's like you are trying to punish someone that if they insist on an abortion well they can jump over hurdles for it.

Please stay out of other people's sex lives and the resultant pregnancies. They are not intruding on yours. (ENDQUOTE)

But your right to choose doesn’t trump an unborn child’s right to life.

Fine if you’re willing to carry a crisis pregnancy full-term, but if you wish to go down the road of having an abortion, there’s an onus on society to step in and stop you.

BabysCoffee

pleas advice wrote: »

can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

And you have every right to protect your own fetus. No one will take this from you when the 8th is repealed. However butt out of everyone else's womb. It's not your business.

SusieBlue

pleas advice wrote: »

can you not see that that argument (if you don't want one, don't have one) just doesn't stand up, at all, for people who think these entities (fetuses, babies, clumps of cells, parasites... whatever) deserve some protections, some rights

Those people can apply their own morals to their own pregnancies. I don’t really care if it doesn’t stand up to them - it’s frankly none of their business.

I am the one taking the risks, it’s my family that will suffer if anything happens to me. I am the one carrying the pregnancy.
So if these people think they have a right to interfere and have an opinion on the contents of my womb - I’d ask them to consider what qualifies them to tell me what is best for me, rather than have ME, the person actually affected, decide on the issue.

SusieBlue

Andrew Beef wrote: »

But your right to choose doesn’t trump an unborn child’s right to life.

Fine if you’re willing to carry a crisis pregnancy full-term, but if you wish to go down the road of having an abortion, there’s an onus on society to step in and stop you.

Society has no business interfering in the reproductive organs of its citizens. We need to trust our women.

Would you be willing to die or have your health significantly compromised for the sake of a 10 week old zygote? Would you say it would be worth it?

Captain Obvious

BabysCoffee wrote: »

The great thing for the so called "pro-lifers" when the 8th is repealed is that not a whole lot will change for them. They won't have an abortion forced on them. That's because of this great thing called CHOICE.

And once again someone who ignores the core issue of the opposite side of the debate.

amdublin

Captain Obvious wrote: »

And once again someone who ignores the core issue of the opposite side of the debate.

Irish abortions happen every day. In England. The debate changes nothing other than the location. It would be great if the other side would remove their noses out of our bedrooms and women's reproductive organs. It is not anyone's place to dictate to another woman what they do or don't do with a 12 week old foetus that is in their body.

eviltwin

Captain Obvious wrote: »

And once again someone who ignores the core issue of the opposite side of the debate.

I think the point she's making is that legal abortion here won't affect the pro life voters, they will be upset by the outcome but that's about it.

It's the women who need abortion, the women in our maternity system who will continue to suffer the consequences

January

amdublin wrote: »

Irish abortions happen every day. In England. The debate changes nothing other than the location. It would be great if the other side would remove their noses out of our bedrooms and women's reproductive organs. It is not anyone's place to dictate to another woman what they do or don't do with a 12 week old foetus that is in their body.

Irish abortions happen every day. In Ireland. Up to 5 people a day take pills here to end their pregnancies.

amdublin

January wrote: »

Irish abortions happen every day. In Ireland. Up to 5 people a day take pills here to end their pregnancies.

Good point

So so unsafe

And emotionally horrific.

What will it take? Someone to die after taking one of these tablets to bring on an abortion. alone and scared, bleeding, and afraid to go to a hospital. These pills should only be taken under the auspices of a doctor/proper healthcare.

I love Ireland but my god sometimes it's a bad place/sometimes we put our citizens in such bad place/treat our women awfully.

pleas advice

BabysCoffee wrote: »

And you have every right to protect your own child. No one will take this from you .... However butt out of everyone else's home. It's not your business.

would you feel the same about the above?

eviltwin

amdublin wrote: »

Good point

So so unsafe And emotionally horrific.

What will it take? Someone to die after taking one of these tablets to bring on an abortion. alone and scared, bleeding, and afraid to go to a hospital. These pills should only be taken under the auspices of a doctor/proper healthcare.

I love Ireland but my god sometimes it's a bad place/sometimes we put our citizens in such bad place/treat our women awfully.

Women have died and those pro life folks don't care. It's all about control.

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

would you feel the same about the above?

What in God's earth are you on about.
And I notice you evaded the points made about butting out of women's uteruses.

Are you trying to equate a woman's womb with a house? Women are not houses. Women are not incubators for babies. Womens role on earth is not to grow babies for society.

Abortion is a private matter. Why can't you trust women and stop trying to make their role in society as growing babies.