Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Leroy42 · 17-02-2018 4:13pm

And a further point, the indictment says it relates to Russians and unwitting Americans, it doesn't state that it covers everything.

More likely, it will be used to drag those unwitting Americans onto the prosecution side, as unwitting can be their only defence, and get them to give details of any other activities and who they informed. Refuse to cooperate will likely see them charged with obstruction at the least.

So, we now know that Mueller is certain Russia sought to, and succeeded in, interfere with the election. We know that Flynn was in contact with Russians illegally. We know Trump Jr held a meeting with Russian government contacts on the pretext of securing intel on HC. With know that Kushner and Manafort attended that meeting yet upon realising what was happening neither told the authorities or, apparently, Trump himself. We know that Trump was involved in trying to cover up the true nature of said meeting.

Only Mueller and his team know what else they know. And only Trump knows how serious this could get, but is aware enough not to want to give testimony to Mueller.

Trump is way behind the narrative on this, failing spectacularly to provide any semblance of control over it.

Professor Moriarty · 17-02-2018 4:18pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

What's important here is that the indictment didn't say "And that's all I got". Some people are trying to spin this as though these are the only indictments that will come from the investigation.

It will come as no surprise when I tell you that 'some people' are in fact The Donald and his staff. From the article:

Trump, who was briefed on the indictments, was “glad to see the Special Counsel’s investigation further indicates - that there was NO COLLUSION between the Trump campaign and Russia and that the outcome of the election was not changed or affected,” the White House said in a statement.

“It’s time we stop the outlandish partisan attacks, wild and false allegations, and far-fetched theories, which only serve to further the agendas of bad actors, like Russia, and do nothing to protect the principles of our institutions,” Trump said in the statement.

UsedToWait · 17-02-2018 4:58pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

“It’s time we stop the outlandish partisan attacks, wild and false allegations, and far-fetched theories, which only serve to further the agendas of bad actors, like Russia, and do nothing to protect the principles of our institutions,” Trump said in the statement.

I take it this means he's closing his Twitter account?

Water John · 17-02-2018 5:05pm

Prof, yes it looks like Special Prosecutor Mueller, has taken out an insurance policy. He will crank this up gradually.
Politically, this first finding will find acceptance by every side. In terms of safe guarding the democratic electoral process,, presenting the evidence that interference actually took place and could again, may be his greatest achievement.
DT is secondary.

Professor Moriarty · 17-02-2018 5:27pm

UsedToWait wrote: »

I take it this means he's closing his Twitter account?

Sadly no. He tweeted some hypocritical twaddle about the Florida shooting last night.

Professor Moriarty · 17-02-2018 5:29pm

Water John wrote: »

Prof, yes it looks like Special Prosecutor Mueller, has taken out an insurance policy. He will crank this up gradually.
Politically, this first finding will find acceptance by every side. In terms of safe guarding the democratic electoral process,, presenting the evidence that interference actually took place and could again, may be his greatest achievement.
DT is secondary.

I take your point about protecting democracy as a priority but you could argue that taking The Donald out would equally protect democracy.

Water John · 17-02-2018 7:47pm

Really funny, where did Lavrov get the word 'blather'?
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/sergey-lavrov-denies-allegations-vote-meddling-180217161700367.html

oscarBravo · 17-02-2018 10:17pm

recedite wrote: »

They were operating from 2014, well before Trump had even considered running for president. There is no suggestion in the indictment that Trump colluded with them.

I see the talking points have been circulated.

Unfortunately, they've already been debunked (thread).

robinph · 17-02-2018 10:59pm

recedite wrote: »

However it is unforgivable that the FBI could not find the time to investigate a guy who was boasting that he would become "a professional school shooter", especially when concerned citizens had gone to the trouble of reporting his eccentric behaviour to them. His guns and his gun licence should have been taken away from him, at the very least.

Which licence would that be then? There is no licence required to purchase or carry guns in Florida, unless it is concealed. It is also apparently illegal for anyone to keep a list of who even has a gun?!?!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

laugh · 17-02-2018 11:08pm

He also registered MAGA in 2012.

recedite · 17-02-2018 11:29pm

robinph wrote: »

Which licence would that be then? There is no licence required to purchase or carry guns in Florida, unless it is concealed. It is also apparently illegal for anyone to keep a list of who even has a gun?!?!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

I stand corrected about the licence. Its a very laid back regime in Florida. Presumably they could still have confiscated the guns though, after the tip-offs.

aloyisious · 18-02-2018 12:05am

The Governor of Florida might have to back off from his call for Chris Wray, the FBI Director, to resign. It seem's the Florida Department of Children and Families [DCF] were aware as far back as Aug 2016 of Mr Cruz stating he plans to go out and buy a gun. The FBI was not the only law agency informed about Cruz. Broward County sheriff stated that his agency had received more than 20 calls about Cruz in the past few years. Broward County is the agency holding Mr Cruz in custody.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/child-welfare-agency-investigated-florida-school-shooting-suspect-828586.html

jooksavage · 18-02-2018 12:53am

recedite wrote: »

I stand corrected about the licence. Its a very laid back regime in Florida. Presumably they could still have confiscated the guns though, after the tip-offs.

It's a bit rich to expect authorities to be soley responsible for preventing acts of terror like this by confiscating the guns AFTER they've been purchased. Making sure they never get into yhe wrong hands in the first place wouldnt make more sense?

Responding to tip-offs? How about being on an official terror watch list? How about that for a tip-off? Senatorial Republicans see no compatabiltiy issues when it comes to terror suspects buying high powered rifles. That's not "laid back", that's wanton dereliction of responsibility.

Igotadose · 18-02-2018 9:20am

recedite wrote: »

I stand corrected about the licence. Its a very laid back regime in Florida. Presumably they could still have confiscated the guns though, after the tip-offs.

Sorry, you're wrong yet again. Here's the ATF's statement:
"On Thursday morning, the A.T.F. agent in charge of South Florida said at a news conference that Cruz had legally purchased the AR-15 assault-style rifle used in the shooting. Federal gun laws only bar people from buying guns under very specific criteria, such as felony convictions, domestic-violence misdemeanors, dishonorable discharge from the military, and other disqualifiers. When it comes to mental health, only people who have been involuntarily committed––a relatively high bar––are banned from buying guns under federal law."
---

So, tip-offs? Good luck with that. The NRA would be flying lawyers in to defend this kids right to purchase weapons had he been prevented by comments from neighbors & a facebook posting.

And, lest we forget, the killer that shot up the church in Texas had a dishonorable military discharge that wasn't in the database, so he could purchase the firearms he used to kill 26 people and wound 20 others. Oopsie, bad government, failed to tick a box in a computer somewhere.

This is the gift of the 2d amendment. States can do whatever they want, including nothing, which is what the NRA wants.

jaykay74 · 18-02-2018 9:34am

Pretty sick and ugly stuff from Trump. To try and turn a school shooting where 17 people are murdered back to serving his own interest. The worst thing is that its not shocking, its whats normal now.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/965075589274177536

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2018 10:01am

jaykay74 wrote: »

Pretty sick and ugly stuff from Trump. To try and turn a school shooting where 17 people are murdered back to serving his own interest. The worst thing is that its not shocking, its whats normal now.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/965075589274177536

The drip drip effect of these tweets will erode support further. He's oblivious to the fact that his narcissistic lack of sensitivity shines through every tweet.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2018 10:35am

Wow, even for Trump that is a new low.

Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the FBI (and IMO it is a contributory factor at most) to try to use this time, when he should be focused on the victims families and the wider society, to try to weasel out of a now full blown investigation is staggering.

everlast75 · 18-02-2018 10:43am

jaykay74 wrote: »

Pretty sick and ugly stuff from Trump. To try and turn a school shooting where 17 people are murdered back to serving his own interest. The worst thing is that its not shocking, its whats normal now.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/965075589274177536

I read that this morning.

My first thought was "Jesus ****ing Christ- he's a ****ing *****"

My second thought was - "he must really be feeling the pressure. Great stuff!!"

alchemist33 · 18-02-2018 10:52am

Igotadose wrote: »

Sorry, you're wrong yet again. Here's the ATF's statement:
"On Thursday morning, the A.T.F. agent in charge of South Florida said at a news conference that Cruz had legally purchased the AR-15 assault-style rifle used in the shooting. Federal gun laws only bar people from buying guns under very specific criteria, such as felony convictions, domestic-violence misdemeanors, dishonorable discharge from the military, and other disqualifiers. When it comes to mental health, only people who have been involuntarily committed––a relatively high bar––are banned from buying guns under federal law."

There's the problem with America's gun laws. In most countries the bar is set high to get high powered weapons. In the US the bar is set high to NOT get a gun. If you started from a different point - that gun ownership is a privilege, not a right - and to get a gun you have to PROVE you're fit to do so, there would be fewer guns.

But the horse has bolted on that one and Trump is not the one to solve the issue.

listermint · 18-02-2018 11:08am

That trump tweet is both shocking and not shocking in equal measure. Between this and support for paedophiles how anyone can be proud of the American political machine is beyond me

Leroy42 · 18-02-2018 11:17am

So Mueller released the indictments on Friday. Still nothing from the POTUS or the WH in regard to the attack on American democracy by one of the main global threats.

Pence, McMaster have both come out and stated that it is clear that Russia tried to interfere. And POTUS has nothing to say on that. And it seems nobody is even demanding that he say anything.

He should be holding an address to the US people to condemn this attack by Russia and outline the steps he is taking to both ensure that it cannot happen again (the 2018 mid terms are fast approaching and most observes accept that Russia will try to interfere again) and what sanctions/actions he will take in order to punish Russia for this.

It is staggering to me at least, that a country that prides itself on its power and might in the world is apparently happy to accept that it is powerless to do anything about this, and is not even asking its leader to try.

Water John · 18-02-2018 11:38am

You may have missed this tweet;

General McMaster forgot to say that the results of the 2016 election were not impacted or changed by the Russians and that the only Collusion was between Russia and Crooked H, the DNC and the Dems. Remember the Dirty Dossier, Uranium, Speeches, Emails and the Podesta Company!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-mcmaster-russia-indictments-1.4541021

Leroy42 · 18-02-2018 11:53am

And still fails to address the elephant in the room.

He is accepting that interference happened, his only argument is that it wasn't him.

But regardless of that, his country was attacked by a foreign power and he is doing and saying nothing about it.

So far all he has done is taken Putin's word over his own experts.

Why does he seem so untroubled by the clear evidence that American democracy is under attack?

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2018 11:53am

Water John wrote: »

You may have missed this tweet;

General McMaster forgot to say that the results of the 2016 election were not impacted or changed by the Russians and that the only Collusion was between Russia and Crooked H, the DNC and the Dems. Remember the Dirty Dossier, Uranium, Speeches, Emails and the Podesta Company!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-mcmaster-russia-indictments-1.4541021

It's pathetic. If I was an American citizen, I'd be deeply embarrassed.

listermint · 18-02-2018 12:06pm

Just watched fox news on the president's tweet. My head melted . My brains literally drained out of my ears. These people are disgusting individuals

jooksavage · 18-02-2018 12:06pm

Those latest comments just go to show that is actually worse at being a human than he is at being president, and that's saying something.

david75 · 18-02-2018 12:39pm

Im stunned at how he keeps finding new lows. Is he that disconnected from reality or is there a point to it? We all get more and more desensitised as we go but his base seem to be lapping it up. Or are they?
Either way he’s more and more appalling as he goes

PropJoe10 · 18-02-2018 12:41pm

Absolutely disgusting from Trump. I think this might actually be the worst thing he's said over the past year, and that's saying something. What an insensitive, narcissistic piece of ****.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2018 12:47pm

Is there a point to it? Yes. The point is that nothing else matters as much as he does. Nothing is as important as himself, and his feelings.

The point is to continue to try to discredit and investigation in the hope that IF it every does come up with anything that he can call on his supporters to call it fake news.

The man cites "No Collusion" when we already know that he son, son-in-law, and campaign chief already tried to collude. The only defense they have come up with, after the initial lies were debunked was that both Kushner and Manafort walked out of the meeting (although never brought it to the attention of the FBI) and the Trump Jr is somewhat naive and a bit simple really. And thats it.

There is one common theme in everything this man does, and that theme is Trump. Even look at the pictures of him visiting the hospital the other day for those caught up in the school shooting. A thumps up! A mean for what? That isn't it a spectacular success that only 17 people died? Or is he giving a thumps up to the medical service, which in many cases will be paid for by plans taken out under Obamacare?

Or is it, that he is saying what a great job he has done and how lucky all these people are to meet him?

pixelburp · 18-02-2018 1:16pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

[...]

Or is it, that he is saying what a great job he has done and how lucky all these people are to meet him?

I think it's exactly this: it's worth noting that back in January, while giving a speech to farmers, he made these exact remarks. ..

"Oh, are you happy you voted for me," President Trump said as farmers applauded him. "You are so lucky that I gave you that privilege."

I'd say the mask slipped there, but as we know it's debatable the mask is ever even on at this point; the above line really does underscore that YES, he really does believe he's above us all and that visiting that hospital would have been an honour for those doctors and nurses in his mind...

Christy42 · 18-02-2018 1:18pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Is there a point to it? Yes. The point is that nothing else matters as much as he does. Nothing is as important as himself, and his feelings.

The point is to continue to try to discredit and investigation in the hope that IF it every does come up with anything that he can call on his supporters to call it fake news.

The man cites "No Collusion" when we already know that he son, son-in-law, and campaign chief already tried to collude. The only defense they have come up with, after the initial lies were debunked was that both Kushner and Manafort walked out of the meeting (although never brought it to the attention of the FBI) and the Trump Jr is somewhat naive and a bit simple really. And thats it.

There is one common theme in everything this man does, and that theme is Trump. Even look at the pictures of him visiting the hospital the other day for those caught up in the school shooting. A thumps up! A mean for what? That isn't it a spectacular success that only 17 people died? Or is he giving a thumps up to the medical service, which in many cases will be paid for by plans taken out under Obamacare?

Or is it, that he is saying what a great job he has done and how lucky all these people are to meet him?

Has anyone said what the FBI could have done under the law at this point? He had committed no crime that I can see before the massacre. Was he danger, yes absolutely but I see no way they could respond to that and remove his gun or his right to purchase a new gun.

However Trunk blames the FBI to reduce the trust further into Mueller's investigation. To remove trust in anything that us not him.

Leroy42 · 18-02-2018 1:38pm

Christy42 wrote: »

Has anyone said what the FBI could have done under the law at this point? He had committed no crime that I can see before the massacre. Was he danger, yes absolutely but I see no way they could respond to that and remove his gun or his right to purchase a new gun.

Not that I have seen, it seems to be based purely on something must be to blame, it can't be the availability of guns, so lets blame someone somewhere for not doing something.

Can you imagine if the FBI had turned up to this kids house to search and remove his guns? The NRA, Fox News, Trump would have gone mental. "Typical PC Rubbish", "Taking away the 2nd Amendment bit by bit".

He met none of the criteria to stop him getting the gun (hence he was legally able to buy it). It is a smokescreen to avoid having to deal with the real issue.

Christy42 wrote: »

However Trunk blames the FBI to reduce the trust further into Mueller's investigation. To remove trust in anything that us not him.

That is exactly it. As if the local FBI office in Florida has anything to do with the Mueller investigation. But he is trying to paint the picture of an FBI focused solely on him with the result of doing nothing else. It another shameful attack on the FBI by POTUS

Water John · 18-02-2018 1:57pm

BTW, where's Rubio in all this? Didn't he get one of the highest donations from the NRA?
Each State should start implementing strong gun laws. As much as they can get away with, under the Constitution.

Brian? · 18-02-2018 2:04pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The drip drip effect of these tweets will erode support further. He's oblivious to the fact that his narcissistic lack of sensitivity shines through every tweet.

The sad thing, to me, is it won't erode his support. It'll harden his already fanatical support.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2018 2:12pm

Water John wrote: »

BTW, where's Rubio in all this? Didn't he get one of the highest donations from the NRA?
Each State should start implementing strong gun laws. As much as they can get away with, under the Constitution.

The Trump campaign got $30 million from the NRA. Not that such a donation would influence The Donald in any way.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2018 2:17pm

Brian? wrote: »

The sad thing, to me, is it won't erode his support. It'll harden his already fanatical support.

His fanatical support will vote for him no matter what he does. Personally, I would put that at about 30%. It's the relatively centrist/floating people that will continue to turn away from him. If the Dems address the reasons why people voted for Trump and put forward credible candidates then Trump will become a toxic hot potato for the GOP.

david75 · 18-02-2018 2:20pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

His fanatical support will vote for him no matter what he does. Personally, I would put that at about 30%. It's the relatively centrist/floating people that will continue to turn away from him. If the Dems address the reasons why people voted for Trump and put forward credible candidates then Trump will become a toxic hot potato for the GOP.

He’s become that and they’ve had a few opportunities to tackle it and either haven’t the balls or it suits them.

Water John · 18-02-2018 2:22pm

Similar to the hard core Brexiteers. If limited to their core hard support, they become irrevelent. That's why appealing to the middle ground is important.

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2018 2:23pm

david75 wrote: »

He’s become that and they’ve had a few opportunities to tackle it and either haven’t the balls or it suits them.

The mid terms will tell a lot. To date, taking him on would do more damage than letting him continue being a bull in a china shop.

Brian? · 18-02-2018 2:24pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

His fanatical support will vote for him no matter what he does. Personally, I would put that at about 30%. It's the relatively centrist/floating people that will continue to turn away from him. If the Dems address the reasons why people voted for Trump and put forward credible candidates then Trump will become a toxic hot potato for the GOP.

Logically you should be right. Lest we forget, he lost the popular vote and won 3 swing states by less than 100k votes to win the election. He only really needs to keep doing what he's doing to do the same again. He mobilised the angry white man's vote with crap like this.

Brian? · 18-02-2018 2:25pm

Water John wrote: »

Similar to the hard core Brexiteers. If limited to their core hard support, they become irrevelent. That's why appealing to the middle ground is important.

The middle ground is disappearing

Professor Moriarty · 18-02-2018 2:32pm

Brian? wrote: »

Logically you should be right. Lest we forget, he lost the popular vote and won 3 swing states by less than 100k votes to win the election. He only really needs to keep doing what he's doing to do the same again. He mobilised the angry white man's vote with crap like this.

I don't think so. I would imagine many undecided/floating/centrist voters regret their decision as they voted Trump because Clinton didn't appeal or they thought he would e.g. drain the swamp. As you say, a small e.g. 5% swing would be devastating to the GOP. Hopefully.

david75 · 18-02-2018 3:13pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The mid terms will tell a lot. To date, taking him on would do more damage than letting him continue being a bull in a china shop.

They’re in a bind when it comes to that. They’ll ultimately want to save their own skins but they’ll each have to guage what support for Trump is like in their own constituencies before they throw in behind him or denounce him.
I can see them being savaged eitherway, overall in the midterms

Leroy42 · 18-02-2018 3:32pm

david75 wrote: »

They’re in a bind when it comes to that. They’ll ultimately want to save their own skins but they’ll each have to guage what support for Trump is like in their own constituencies before they throw in behind him or denounce him.
I can see them being savaged eitherway, overall in the midterms

Unless Russia gets involved again!

david75 · 18-02-2018 3:37pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Unless Russia gets involved again!

Well even dt has acknowledged that happened and is just denying involvement.

To be fair the entire US seems to have woken up to that and are aware of it.
How can it be stopped in future is the big question.

PropJoe10 · 18-02-2018 3:44pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Unless Russia gets involved again!

NO COLLUSION!

PropJoe10 · 18-02-2018 3:45pm

david75 wrote: »

Well even dt has acknowledged that happened and is just denying involvement.

To be fair the entire US seems to have woken up to that and are aware of it.
How can it be stopped in future is the big question.

He's sort of acknowledged it, but is refusing to do anything about it. Pretty obvious that Putin has him in his back pocket. I'd love to know what dirt the Russians have on Trump!

laugh · 18-02-2018 4:23pm

PropJoe10 wrote: »

He's sort of acknowledged it, but is refusing to do anything about it. Pretty obvious that Putin has him in his back pocket. I'd love to know what dirt the Russians have on Trump!

Having prostitutes piss on a hotel bed seems like an oddly specific thing to make up.

PropJoe10 · 18-02-2018 4:26pm

laugh wrote: »

Having prostitutes piss on a hotel bed seems like an oddly specific thing to make up.

I'd say its likely to be stuff of a financial nature, as well as the obvious hooker pissing video. He seems afraid to do or say anything that'd anger the Russians. Look at how he treats pretty much every other country in comparison.

AbusesToilets · 18-02-2018 5:08pm

I've been disappointed with the Democrats messaging this year. Trump has provided them with so many examples of ineptitude, from his Cabinet appointees, his legislative initiatives, to the personal scandal that lingers around everything he touches.

Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

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