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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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Grandeeod

BonnieSituation wrote: »

THat was so frustrating to read. I am by no means a fan of the Greens or indeed Ryan but Brendan Griffin's response as well as Ross' is beyond reproach.

Look at what we are dealing with. No wonder this ****e happens with such regularity ad the city is grinding to a halt. And then you go over to the 2042 thread and read users "not getting" what our issue is with one-off housing etc.

FFS.

I finish my degree in May. I cannot wait to see the back of this place.

That debate is typical and you can find hundreds of similar debates going back 40 odd years. It is indeed frustrating to read, but when you've been around as long as me, you get used to it. Get your degree and run.

BonnieSituation

Grandeeod wrote: »

That debate is typical and you can find hundreds of similar debates going back 40 odd years. It is indeed frustrating to read, but when you've been around as long as me, you get used to it. Get your degree and run.

I'm long enough in the tooth to be aware it's the normal level of discourse, but you would just think with the 2040 launch on the horizon that the minister responsible for this sector of society wouldn't resort to such debasement.

Carawaystick

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Electrifying as far as Rusk & Lusk and extending the DART to there could be a good option. If the Metro could go that far too it would be a good interchange station between DART, Metro, commuter and perhaps even Enterprise. It has the space for additional platforms allowing for turnback and even stabling space for the first DARTs of the morning making the whole thing more efficient. From Skerries north would still sustain the commuter services.

The 33x is already faster than commuter rail from Rush and Lusk. Slowing the trains down by having darts won't help.

Skerries has space for slidings north of the platforms, R&L has a bridge preventing this.

Donabate is the logical place to link Metro and the train line.

Pete_Cavan

Carawaystick wrote: »

The 33x is already faster than commuter rail from Rush and Lusk. Slowing the trains down by having darts won't help.

Skerries has space for slidings north of the platforms, R&L has a bridge preventing this.

Donabate is the logical place to link Metro and the train line.

I know many commuters choose bus over rail from R&L but my suggestion had little to do with commuters from there (although it would open up more options for them). It was about improving DART efficiency, by having dedicated turnback platforms and stabling space, as well as having a DART Metro interchange. I don't think Donabate has the space required and Skerries is an extra 6km of expensive track for no real benefit. R&L seems ideal given it is almost a blank canvas.

MayoSalmon

DART extension to Drogheda sounds very ambitious

LuckyLloyd

RIP Dart Underground, we simply didn’t have the balls or vision for you.

D.L.R.

Wow 116 BILLION to dole out and we STILL can't manage DU.

Incredible.

Braindead nation when it comes to rail and urban development.

75% of growth outside Dublin lol... delusional potato republic.

CarlosHarpic

D.L.R. wrote: »

Wow 116 BILLION to dole out and we STILL can't manage DU.

Incredible.

Braindead nation when it comes to rail and urban development.

75% of growth outside Dublin lol... delusional potato republic.

You can blame the CIE Union strike junkies for this. As soon as the tunnel would be finished the screams of "Larkin!!!"...would begin and 'deh members' would be using it as ransom.

CIE unions exclusively to blame for this.

Shn99

Attachment not found.

Its listed on the NDP 2018-2027 as being completed post 2027

D.L.R.

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

You can blame the CIE Union strike junkies for this. As soon as the tunnel would be finished the screams of "Larkin!!!"...would begin and 'deh members' would be using it as ransom.

CIE unions exclusively to blame for this.

I agree, but CIE is an organ of the state. The buck stops there.

Shn99 wrote: »

Attachment not found.

Its listed on the NDP 2018-2027 as being completed post 2027

The image also shows the Lucan and other Luas extensions as being post 2027.

So that would raise the question, would the Dart tunnel start in 2027/2028 or would it get long fingered again and the Lucan and other Luas extensions start instead.

On the one hand I'm glad to see all the other electrification work gets done now as it certainly will strengthen the case for the tunnel and it will help take a billion or two out of the DU plan cost thus making it seem more reasonable.

However I do worry about the sequencing and timing of it all.

LuckyLloyd

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

You can blame the CIE Union strike junkies for this. As soon as the tunnel would be finished the screams of "Larkin!!!"...would begin and 'deh members' would be using it as ransom.

CIE unions exclusively to blame for this.

Eh sorry, but that is so utterly ridiculous. Don’t invest in a major infrastructure project that could benefit the city for centuries and was earmarked as a requirement over 40 years ago because of short term issues with Unions? Such a thin line of argument to try and hide behind.

Zebra3

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

You can blame the CIE Union strike junkies for this. As soon as the tunnel would be finished the screams of "Larkin!!!"...would begin and 'deh members' would be using it as ransom.

CIE unions exclusively to blame for this.

Isn’t it great that nobody working on Luas has ever gone on strike?

VeryOwl

bk wrote: »

However I do worry about the sequencing and timing of it all.

The sequencing and timing (insofar as there is any) suggests that the Government isn't serious about doing any of it. There has been no planning done for any of the electrification and DART Underground itself has been kicked to touch. A Government that was serious about delivering on the DART expansion or indeed, any of their plan, would hit the ground running.

Instead literally everything in the plan is being designed or redesigned and they'll only commit to a delivery by 2027. We're getting nothing for years. Not even buses!

I hear the echoes of a poster from days gone by who warned this exact thing would happen. The re-branding of Metro North to "Metro Link" so FG could claim it as their own project while dragging it through another planning process was called to the letter!

LXFlyer

VeryOwl wrote: »

The sequencing and timing (insofar as there is any) suggests that the Government isn't serious about doing any of it. There has been no planning done for any of the electrification and DART Underground itself has been kicked to touch. A Government that was serious about delivering on the DART expansion or indeed, any of their plan, would hit the ground running.

Instead literally everything in the plan is being designed or redesigned and they'll only commit to a delivery by 2027. We're getting nothing for years. Not even buses!

I hear the echoes of a poster from days gone by who warned this exact thing would happen. The re-branding of Metro North to "Metro Link" so FG could claim it as their own project while dragging it through another planning process was called to the letter!

While you’re probably quite right about the rail projects being pushed back again and again, you’re not correct about the expansion of the bus fleet. There are 100 extra (not replacement) buses being added to the Dublin City PSO bus fleet over the next 15 months or so in addition to the 100 or so added in recent years. The Bus Eireann PSO fleet is also expanding.

Lennoxschips

Dublin has had so many unused rail corridors lying around for decades now... Dart Underground S-Bahn / RER system would be magic way to fix the transport in the city. It's literally what they do everywhere else ffs... Even London doing it now with Crossrail.

Instead we get a shiny metro to take the rugger crowd from Ballsbridge to the airport...

donvito99

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Instead we get a shiny metro to take the rugger crowd from Ballsbridge to the airport...

Literally goes no where near Ballsbridge.

Almost all of it on the North Side.

But don't let me stop you in your moralising.

MJohnston

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Dublin has had so many unused rail corridors lying around for decades now... Dart Underground S-Bahn / RER system would be magic way to fix the transport in the city. It's literally what they do everywhere else ffs... Even London doing it now with Crossrail.

Instead we get a shiny metro to take the rugger crowd from Ballsbridge to the airport...

Oh please, we've enough trouble getting public transport projects built in this city, can people stop pitting against each other? Metro is an extremely valuable piece of infrastructure for unserved parts of the city, DU is an extremely valuable piece of infrastructure that increases the capacity to already served parts of the city. That is the political reality of why Metro is coming first.

Lennoxschips

Forgot, the lads from Ballsbridge take a Taxi to the airport through their shiny Port Tunnel. No need to even look at the North Side.

Larbre34

To save me reading on a friday night, what was the upshot of todays announcement, is the DART underground interconnector / underground and electrification and segregation of the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines now dead? If so, why?

Idbatterim

Larbre34 wrote: »

To save me reading on a friday night, what was the upshot of todays announcement, is the DART underground interconnector / underground and electrification and segregation of the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines now dead? If so, why?

they have nailed it with this plan for dublin in my opinion. do what we already have previously said that they should do on this thread, split up the DU programme, to make it actually deliverable. They could never announce DU , MN and all the other luas schemes in one go. Watch them bring forward some of the luas schemes as "extra funding becomes available"

we will have the dodder public transport bridge well before IGBS redevelopment is completed, they can send electric BRT down that and also pearse street!

sdanseo

Have just sent a mail to the Minister and also local FG TD (since Ross isn't a FG member) explaining my absolute dismay at the shelving of DU and asking why.

Specifically, I also asked when "post 2027" means and also what the actual plan is once we have 4 DART lines - presumably all with 10 or 15 minute projected frequency - meeting at the loop line which doesn't have that level of capacity. What way will trains run etc.

Be interesting to see if there's any answer. Of course it will be a pfo or nothing at all but I'm curious which.

salmocab

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Forgot, the lads from Ballsbridge take a Taxi to the airport through their shiny Port Tunnel. No need to even look at the North Side.

Their port tunnel? You are surely aware every inch of the port tunnel is on the north side and the metro your complaining about is mainly on the north side?

CatInABox

Honestly, this was the best that could be expected, and anyone that is disappointed about not getting DU needs to take a look at what DU was and what the DART expansion is.

The Dart expansion is basically all the parts of the DU plan, minus the interconnector tunnel. Once all those lines are complete, the economic case for building the tunnel will be undeniable.

The plan announced today is pretty much the best that Dublin could have gotten, based on the economic and political realities right now.

Bray Head

Below is the full text of the DART expansion programme. The main claim is that it will provide "a very substantial increase in peak-hour capacity on all lines from Drogheda, Maynooth, Celbridge/Hazelhatch and Greystones." but that this will be achieved through "re-signalling, junction and station changes"

Can anyone explain how you can get very substantial increases in capacity without a new tunnel? I had always understood that the Connolly-Pearse corridor restricted hourly movements and unless you bypassed it then not much could be done.

DART Expansion Programme
Estimated Cost: €2 billion
Estimated Completion Date: 2027
The DART Expansion Programme is a series of
projects that will create a full metropolitan area
DART network for Dublin with all of the lines
linked and connected. The initial sequencing
of investment will focus on delivery of nonunderground
tunnel elements of the programme
using the recently opened rail link and existing
connector tunnel under the Phoenix Park. This
includes buying additional fleet for the DART
network and measures such as re-signalling,
junction and station changes to provide expanded
services. The next step will be to provide fast,
high-frequency electrified services to Drogheda
on the Northern Line, Celbridge/Hazelhatch on
the Kildare Line, Maynooth and M3 Parkway on
the Maynooth/Sligo Line, while continuing to
provide DART services on the South-Eastern Line
as far south as Greystones. It will also include new
stations to provide interchange with bus, LUAS and
Metro networks.
The significant benefit to using the recently
opened rail link and existing connector tunnel
under the Phoenix Park and the proposed
sequence of investment, is that it will enable
additional passenger services to be put in place
much earlier using existing infrastructure with
some enhancements. This integrated rail network
will provide a core, high-capacity transit system
for the region and will deliver a very substantial
increase in peak-hour capacity on all lines from
Drogheda, Maynooth, Celbridge/Hazelhatch and
Greystones. The route for the remaining element
of the overall DART Expansion Programme, the
DART Underground Tunnel, will be established and
protected to allow for its future delivery.

Grandeeod

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh please, we've enough trouble getting public transport projects built in this city, can people stop pitting against each other? Metro is an extremely valuable piece of infrastructure for unserved parts of the city, DU is an extremely valuable piece of infrastructure that increases the capacity to already served parts of the city. That is the political reality of why Metro is coming first.

You are in the Metro thread complaining about the "political" contributions getting mixed in with the "technical" discussion and you come onto this thread spouting on about the political reality. Seriously.:rolleyes:

While I note your acceptance of DU as being a valuable piece of infrastructure, you are absolutely wrong if you think that Metro and DU were never pitted against each other at a political level. As far back as 2003 there was a very poor political response to DU not long after a metro concept was announced for Dublin. Believe it or not a voluntary organisation did more work to put DU in the public and political domain than any politician or IE themselves. But if you want one single piece of evidence that DU is off the political radar well it has to be the lack of funding provided for the CPO aspect, which was a pittance compared to the apparent overall figure of 116 billion for this latest "plan". This act of attrition was made on the basis of redesigning DU to make it cheaper. Yeah right!

As for your point about the differences between Metro and DU, I agree that it may not be possible to fund both together, but to claim that Metro is preferred because it opens up a new rail alignment in Dublin, is an example of everything that is wrong. You fix what you have first and then expand. The current IE network in Dublin has been savaged in terms of delivering a decent service. When DART started in 1984 it offered a 5 minute peak frequency, a 15 min off peak frequency and a 20 minute frequency on a Sunday. Since then it has been strangled by additional commuter services added as people bought houses in the GDA, because that's all they could afford. DART lengths were increased along with platform lengths, but this was a sticky plaster solution to try and improve it capacity issues. We now find ourselves in a situation where its a case of people renting, not buying, outside the city in the same GDA. But the same problems remain and the only way to improve the rail network in the GDA is DU.

Its almost as if we have realized that exporting Dublin workers to Meath, Laois, Kildare, Louth, Westmeath and beyond etc. was a mistake and we have decided that light rail, metro etc. is the way forward now in the city environs along with proper residential planning. I think that's a drawbridge mentality. There still exists commuters in those counties. Nothing has changed for them. There are new commuters in those counties now because they can't afford to buy or rent in Dublin. The same issues remain.

I disagree with the redesign of Metro and I disagree with the shelving (and thats what it is) of DU. DU should have come first. This was a political decision and the funny thing is that Metro is no nearer completion than DU.

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

they have nailed it with this plan for dublin in my opinion. do what we already have previously said that they should do on this thread, split up the DU programme, to make it actually deliverable. They could never announce DU , MN and all the other luas schemes in one go. Watch them bring forward some of the luas schemes as "extra funding becomes available"

we will have the dodder public transport bridge well before IGBS redevelopment is completed, they can send electric BRT down that and also pearse street!

You've a lot to learn. I hope you hang around.

lucernarian

Even that lout Micheal Martin can point out that much of the extra cost of the proposed metro, is going to serve areas on the luas green line which already has a very decent and far more frequent service than the dart. So how can Dart Underground be criticised for serving existing areas? Ones which have a train every hour outside of peak times. Practically all of the commuter railway lines right now have lots of green land to let building happen.

blanch152

salmocab wrote: »

Their port tunnel? You are surely aware every inch of the port tunnel is on the north side and the metro your complaining about is mainly on the north side?

You don't get it.

The port tunnel was built so that the lads from Ballsbridge could travel through the Northside to the airport without actually having to look at the Northside.

Ditto Metro Link. They have increased the underground part so the lads from Ranelagh and Sandyford don't have to actually look at the Northside while travelling to the airport.

blanch152

Bray Head wrote: »

Below is the full text of the DART expansion programme. The main claim is that it will provide "a very substantial increase in peak-hour capacity on all lines from Drogheda, Maynooth, Celbridge/Hazelhatch and Greystones." but that this will be achieved through "re-signalling, junction and station changes"

Can anyone explain how you can get very substantial increases in capacity without a new tunnel? I had always understood that the Connolly-Pearse corridor restricted hourly movements and unless you bypassed it then not much could be done.

DART Expansion Programme
Estimated Cost: €2 billion
Estimated Completion Date: 2027
The DART Expansion Programme is a series of
projects that will create a full metropolitan area
DART network for Dublin with all of the lines
linked and connected. The initial sequencing
of investment will focus on delivery of nonunderground
tunnel elements of the programme
using the recently opened rail link and existing
connector tunnel under the Phoenix Park. This
includes buying additional fleet for the DART
network and measures such as re-signalling,
junction and station changes to provide expanded
services. The next step will be to provide fast,
high-frequency electrified services to Drogheda
on the Northern Line, Celbridge/Hazelhatch on
the Kildare Line, Maynooth and M3 Parkway on
the Maynooth/Sligo Line, while continuing to
provide DART services on the South-Eastern Line
as far south as Greystones. It will also include new
stations to provide interchange with bus, LUAS and
Metro networks.
The significant benefit to using the recently
opened rail link and existing connector tunnel
under the Phoenix Park and the proposed
sequence of investment, is that it will enable
additional passenger services to be put in place
much earlier using existing infrastructure with
some enhancements. This integrated rail network
will provide a core, high-capacity transit system
for the region and will deliver a very substantial
increase in peak-hour capacity on all lines from
Drogheda, Maynooth, Celbridge/Hazelhatch and
Greystones. The route for the remaining element
of the overall DART Expansion Programme, the
DART Underground Tunnel, will be established and
protected to allow for its future delivery.

The only way I can see it happening is with an interchange station at Ossory Road allowing for interchange between Maynooth trains travelling through Drumcondra to the Docklands and the DART line as well as Kildare trains similarly travelling via Liffey Junction.

Otherwise, the capacity isn't there.

The CPO would be the biggest cost.