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Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

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Comments

  • #902
    lisasimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    Rural ireland wouldnt be so expensive to maintain if councils used proper good quality matterials on roads...take for example the suir bridge in Thurles. Only repaired a few yrs back and it needs to be redone.. never saw it so bad

    As for government helping rural ireland and SMEs , for decades local businness supplied food for the garda collage due to the management fall out these businesses who were innoncent parties in the mess found out this week they have lost these contracts... thats a blow to many towns in north tipp where there isnt a lot going on


  • #903
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,408 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    pilly wrote: »
    Can I ask what DU is?

    Dublin underground. It’s probably the most needed and useful but also the most expensive of the things mooted


  • #904
    hurler32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭hurler32


    Fine Gael are no friend of Rural Ireland , closing so many rural Garda stations was the death knell for many parts .

    As Fine Gael well know there has never been as many traveller gangs involved in burglary so closing most rural Garda stations has given the burglars a free hand and ended up driving the elderly and anyone living alone into nursing homes or abandoning their homes altogether to live with relations in the city. Unless your a large dairy farmer it's hard to know how anyone in rural Ireland votes Fine Gael .

    Alan Shatter has a lot to answer for .


  • #905
    Consonata
    Registered Users Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Consonata


    lisasimpson wrote: »
    Rural ireland wouldnt be so expensive to maintain if councils used proper good quality matterials on roads...take for example the suir bridge in Thurles. Only repaired a few yrs back and it needs to be redone.. never saw it so bad

    A lot of that is to do with the sort of vehicles travelling over that though no? Speaking from experience, I grew up in the countryside and saw plenty of tractors and vans pulling heavy loads over roads nearby, ruining it in half the time of the nearby main road.


  • #906
    lisasimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    Consonata wrote: »
    A lot of that is to do with the sort of vehicles travelling over that though no? Speaking from experience, I grew up in the countryside and saw plenty of tractors and vans pulling heavy loads over roads nearby, ruining it in half the time of the nearby main

    Type of traffic is nothing different to other bridges in the area. This is something shocking.it was redone in recent years and have heard a number people who work in contruction state its the quality of materials that were used. Its now almost structurally unsafe and one side of town will be cut of again from the square.in 30 something years ive never seen it that bad. Typicall half arsed job..do it right the 1stvtime would save money


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  • #907
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lisasimpson wrote: »
    Consonata wrote: »
    A lot of that is to do with the sort of vehicles travelling over that though no? Speaking from experience, I grew up in the countryside and saw plenty of tractors and vans pulling heavy loads over roads nearby, ruining it in half the time of the nearby main

    Type of traffic is nothing different to other bridges in the area. This is something shocking.it was redone in recent years and have heard a number people who work in contruction state its the quality of materials that were used. Its now almost structurally unsafe and one side of town will be cut of again from the square.in 30 something years ive never seen it that bad.

    Ireland 2040 won't change that.


  • #908
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It looks reasonably balanced to me so far though hard to tell without all the details.

    A lot of positives in there for Dublin with metro etc

    7bn for rural roads is great to see and badly needed
    The M20 badly needed so good
    1bn for town rejuvination another good one
    1bn for flood prevention etc another vital one
    Money to further develop the greenways which is great for tourism.

    Interesting that only about 50% of housing is planned to be built in existing cities, towns and villages which is quite different to what some were thinking I would guess - without the details though it's hard to know what they actually mean.


  • #909
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    marno21 wrote: »
    Going back to the topic at hand, has anyone seen a time for when this will be published?
    2pm


  • #910
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    markodaly wrote: »
    * Luas extensions to Bray, Finglas, Lucan and Poolbeg - Finglas would be the only one I support there, Luas is grand when moving small distances but to Bray? **** off!

    Bray is too a large distance for who?


  • #911
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Bray is too a large distance for who?

    I didn't get that comment either? It's like they would be forcing people to go to Bray or something? What?

    Either way, the Luas anywhere is a much faster and more comfortable journey than a bus.


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  • #912
    velo.2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    0080006.jpg


  • #913
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    We're upgrading the green line to metro standard... And then putting more trams further out beyond the M50. What about metro outside the M50. You couldn't make it up.

    The Lucan alignment will be interesting. And not good interesting. If it dog legs at Ballyfermot to head down the Kylemore Road to join the red line either at the Naas Road or down the canal to join the red line at black horse you can keep it.

    It needs to get directly into town and hit Heuston via Con Colbert and John's Road.

    If you go out St Johns Road will it be wide enough or will something have to give either the bus lanes or banning private cars and make it public transport only?


  • #914
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    pilly wrote: »
    I didn't get that comment either? It's like they would be forcing people to go to Bray or something? What?

    Either way, the Luas anywhere is a much faster and more comfortable journey than a bus.

    Not sure about your latter comment.

    The 145 gives the LUAS a good run for its money from Cherrywood to the city centre and have you seen the crush loadings on the LUAS at peak times? It is FAR from comfortable. On the bus the majority of people have a seat.


  • #915
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    roadmaster wrote: »
    If you go out St Johns Road will it be wide enough or will something have to give either the bus lanes or banning private cars and make it public transport only?

    Ban cars it is so.


  • #916
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭Nermal


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    The Lucan alignment will be interesting. And not good interesting. If it dog legs at Ballyfermot to head down the Kylemore Road to join the red line either at the Naas Road or down the canal to join the red line at black horse you can keep it.

    Where's the road space for that? Turning off the Kylemore Road at Kylemore Way and joining at Blackhorse would not be THAT bad. It would be a bit crazy to go over a not insignificant hill to meet at the Naas road at an already crazy junction.


  • #917
    MeTheMan
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭MeTheMan


    So the announcement seems to have pleased, some what, both sides? Well I never! Just waiting for more details now I suppose. Still see it as a 'keep us in government until we get the 2040 plan done' then in 2038 they will land with the 2060 plan and so it goes on.


  • #918
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Nermal wrote: »
    Where's the road space for that? Turning off the Kylemore Road at Kylemore Way and joining at Blackhorse would not be THAT bad. It would be a bit crazy to go over a not insignificant hill to meet at the Naas road at an already crazy junction.

    The hill as in the bridge at Labre Park over the Grand Canal? It's not the steepest of gradients for starters. Hardly insurmountable.

    Agree with the Kylemore Way sentiment as I have previously posted.

    Anything that removes a direct route to the city reduces the effectiveness of the system in totality. So to go all the way to the Naas Road (which is part of the old Line F plans) would render the whole extension useless.

    Imagine coming in from Lucan for it to get about 4km from Heuston (at Ballyfermot Rd/Kylemore Rd junction)to suddenly add on nearly 2km of track to join a line at a point that's 5km and from Heuston. From any POV that is madness.


  • #919
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    jmayo wrote: »
    They travel further at a quicker pace, not crawling along in traffic.

    Travelling at a faster pace, creates more pollutants then stopped in traffic. Also again people in rural Ireland travel significantly further and tend more to have dirty diesels then petrols which you find more of in cities.

    Another point for you. In Dublin City center only 20% of people get their by car. 80% get their by walking, cycling or public transport. That is a massive reduction in pollution created.
    jmayo wrote: »
    And auto shutoff is only a new thing on newer cars and hybrids a fair few will argue are more a drain on the environment through their manufacturer.

    Oh ffs, hybrids and EV's are VASTLY cleaner then dirty Diesels, even taking into account their manufacture. That nonsense was spread by oil companies and has been thoroughly debunked! :rolleyes:
    jmayo wrote: »
    So all those dirty old buses, all those cars crawling along in traffic are not contributing pollution to the environment in the cities ?

    Of course they are. But Diesel cars are doing far more milage in rural Ireland and then their are serious issues with smokey coal adding to pollution, which is banned in urban areas.

    BTW We don't have "dirty old buses" in Dublin, Dublin Buses bus fleet is relatively young and modern and at this stage the majority of them are using modern, clean Euro 5 engines.

    Interestingly a Dublin Bus is actually producing less NOX and particulate pollution then a Volkswagen Golf sitting next to it! And no, I don't mean per passenger, I mean vehicle versus vehicle. The reason is that the emission rules for trucks and buses are WAY more strict then for cars (see the whole Dieselgate thing) Which means a typical Diesel car is actually more polluting then a bus!! And that is before you consider that the bus is carrying 90 people or so, per passenger, buses are one of the cleanest forms of transport we have.

    Because buses are so much larger and more expensive (about 400k a pop) it is much easier to put large, complicated and expensive filtration systems in them then it is to put it in a small Diesel car.
    jmayo wrote: »
    BTW I find it a bit incongruous that you are a mod of the commuting and transport forum when you don't commute to work or don't it appears use public transport.
    Hell you are like that guy in charge of Dublin traffic system that just uses a bike. :rolleyes:

    I don't know, maybe because walking and cycling are absolutely forms of commuting and transport :rolleyes:

    And of course I also frequently use Dublin Bus, Luas, DART and intercity buses to get around. The fact I don't have a car means I actually have to use them to get around. I probably have a broader range of experience of using public transport in Dublin and Cork then most people have.

    As an example, today I took a DB bus into town, then took an intercity bus to Cork and then took a BE city bus in Cork.


  • #920
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Any chance of a fresh thread to discuss the plan as it hits our screens in about 7 minutes.


  • #921
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Any chance of a fresh thread to discuss the plan as it hits our screens in about 7 minutes.

    Even just change the name so that it isn't so inflammatory, seeing as the "kill rural Ireland" part was based solely on guesses and gossip.


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  • #922
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Discuss the Planning Framework and its associated Investment/Development Plan here:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057842159

    Roads in Roads forum,.


  • #923
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Never mind 'rural' Ireland, what about proper national parks and forests?

    Ireland has the lowest forest cover of all European countries, according to Teagasc. IUFRO have it as the 2nd lowest in Europe, not great for the 'green' isle.

    Forests are critical as habitats and also ecosystem services such as carbon sinking and flood reduction. May even help to boost tourism and improve health.

    If one is really concerned with green targets, fresh air and biodiversity, plant some trees (well, a lot of trees).


  • #924
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Emberly Raspy Shag wrote: »
    Never mind 'rural' Ireland, what about proper national parks and forests?

    Ireland has the lowest forest cover of all European countries, according to Teagasc. IUFRO have it as the 2nd lowest in Europe, not great for the 'green' isle.

    Forests are critical as habitats and also ecosystem services such as carbon sinking and flood reduction. May even help to boost tourism and improve health.

    If one is really concerned with green targets, fresh air and biodiversity, plant some trees (well, a lot of trees).

    If we covered Ireland from top to bottom in trees how much effect would it have one carbon sinking on a global scale

    I'd love forests but let's not pretend we're making a difference


  • #925
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Emberly Raspy Shag wrote: »
    Never mind 'rural' Ireland, what about proper national parks and forests?

    Ireland has the lowest forest cover of all European countries, according to Teagasc. IUFRO have it as the 2nd lowest in Europe, not great for the 'green' isle.

    Forests are critical as habitats and also ecosystem services such as carbon sinking and flood reduction. May even help to boost tourism and improve health.

    If one is really concerned with green targets, fresh air and biodiversity, plant some trees (well, a lot of trees).

    Wasn't that proven to be very bad for the natural bogland in Scotland?
    https://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/magazine/170411-ngm-scottish-moors-forsinard-climate-change-peat-bog-scotland


  • #926
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    Typical row back on one-off housing: the draft version of the plan would have all but banned them but now they now they can be allowed if the applicant can prove an 'economic or social need.'

    Could go two ways: either it's a meaningless clause that won't be enforced or it'll technically allow them but is so restrictive that very few are actually built. Hopefully the latter but at least there is going to be more restrictions on them.


  • #927
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I would have thought that Cork - Limerick axis would be the counter balance. There are two international airports, a soon to be built motorway, plenty of space, two universities plus other further education facilities.

    But do not forget the motorway - that is needed now!

    Looks like they agreed with you!!

    "Dublin is Ireland’s globally competitive city of scale and continues to drive much of the growth of the country as a whole. Cork is emerging as an international centre of scale and is well placed to complement Dublin, but requires significantly accelerated and urban-focused growth to more fully achieve this role."


  • #928
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    75% of population growth 'should be' outside of Dublin..

    facepalm


  • #929
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    lawred2 wrote: »
    75% of population growth 'should be' outside of Dublin..

    facepalm
    When you read that at the start you know the plan is a crock.


  • #930
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    hmmm wrote: »
    When you read that at the start you know the plan is a crock.

    *Ireland 2040: Dublin now reaches to Mullingar*


    Also I think I heard Micheal Martin name check Granard and Edgeworthstown on the RTE 1 o clock news today.

    I mean....... WHAT


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  • #931
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    Travelling at a faster pace, creates more pollutants then stopped in traffic.

    That I would be slow to bet on, cars are terribly inefficient in slow moving traffic and when idling.


  • #932
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,935 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    lawred2 wrote:
    75% of population growth 'should be' outside of Dublin..
    hmmm wrote:
    When you read that at the start you know the plan is a crock.

    Why do you both disagree with this ideal?


  • #933
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Luka Lemon Town wrote: »
    That I would be slow to bet on, cars are terribly inefficient in slow moving traffic and when idling.

    Inefficient, a waste of money.

    However, when the cars moving at pace it’s more efficient and is better value for money.

    But… it’s polluting more. ;)

    Every single occupant diesel Passat motoring along on the road is polluting more than your average Dublin bus with ninety people on board.


  • #934
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,935 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    John_Rambo wrote:
    Every single occupant diesel Passat motoring along on the road is polluting more than your average Dublin bus with ninety people on board.

    So we're agreed, more jobs in towns/ cities outside of Dublin so the whole of Leinster and beyond isn't pouring into it as part of their 12 hour day.


  • #935
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,980 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Every single occupant diesel Passat motoring along on the road is polluting more than your average Dublin bus with ninety people on board.

    Even more insanely, a Passat with a single driver is actually polluting more then a Dublin Bus with just it's driver and no passengers!!!!!!

    A Dublin Bus with 90 passengers is causing roughly 100 times less pollution per commuter then a Passat!!


  • #936
    Shn99
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Shn99


    Since the NPF website is under maintenance...here you go


    http://www.thejournal.ie/project-ireland-3855524-Feb2018/?utm_source=facebook_short


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  • #937
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Inefficient, a waste of money.

    However, when the cars moving at pace it’s more efficient and is better value for money.

    But… it’s polluting more. ;)

    .

    This is not a given. A car crusing along in 6th at 100km/h for 30 mins could easily sit at a lower average rpm than a car constantly speeding up and slowing down for 30 mins in traffic.

    A modern diesel in a high gear at cursing speed is not a whole lot above an idle rpm.

    I'd personally rather take my chances with the pollution and have the comfort, flexibility and practicality of my car. The only reason I choose the bus over my car is when I'm going on the beer after work.


  • #938
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Luka Lemon Town wrote: »
    This is not a given. A car crusing along in 6th at 100km/h for 30 mins could easily sit at a lower average rpm than a car constantly speeding up and slowing down for 30 mins in traffic.

    A modern diesel in a high gear at cursing speed is not a whole lot above an idle rpm.

    I'd personally rather take my chances with the pollution and have the comfort, flexibility and practicality of my car. The only reason I choose the bus over my car is when I'm going on the beer after work.

    Good stuff.

    I certainly hope you have a nice big driveway for it.

    Mother above.


  • #939
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Luka Lemon Town wrote: »
    This is not a given. A car crusing along in 6th at 100km/h for 30 mins could easily sit at a lower average rpm than a car constantly speeding up and slowing down for 30 mins in traffic.

    A modern diesel in a high gear at cursing speed is not a whole lot above an idle rpm.

    I'd personally rather take my chances with the pollution and have the comfort, flexibility and practicality of my car. The only reason I choose the bus over my car is when I'm going on the beer after work.

    Basically the higher the revolutions of the internal combustion engine the more fuel is burnt and more pollutants are released.

    Trust me, there’s no lower amount of revolutions than idle. ;)


  • #940
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Tell me how wrote: »
    So we're agreed, more jobs in towns/ cities outside of Dublin so the whole of Leinster and beyond isn't pouring into it as part of their 12 hour day.

    Yeah deffo... sure read back, I was in support of massive investment in to Limerick!


  • #941
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Basically the higher the revolutions of the internal combustion engine the more fuel is burnt and more pollutants are released.

    Trust me, there’s no lower amount of revolutions than idle. ;)

    In stop start traffic you are not idling all the time you end up reving quite high often and emissions can be higher while idling than driving at low revs so you are not as right as you think you are.


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  • #942
    Shn99
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Shn99


    NPF.ie now live


  • #943
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Luka Lemon Town wrote: »
    In stop start traffic you are not idling all the time you end up reving quite high often and emissions can be higher while idling than driving at low revs so you are not as right as you think you are.

    Now you're catching on. That's why city travel by bike, bus and train is so much less polluting than the car travel that rural people are forced to use. Most of Dublin’s quays are now bus and cycle with only one car lane because of the amount of people cycling and busing is so much more than driving.


  • #944
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,935 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    John_Rambo wrote:
    Now you're catching on. That's why city travel by bike, bus and train is so much less polluting than the car travel that rural people are forced to use. Most of Dublin’s quays are now bus and cycle with only one car lane because of the amount of people cycling and busing is so much more than driving.

    They abandoned plans to convert lanes on the quays to a cycle lane last September.
    Took 500k or something to make that decision.


  • #945
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Tell me how wrote: »
    They abandoned plans to convert lanes on the quays to a cycle lane last September.
    Took 500k or something to make that decision.

    Yeah, when I say bus and cycle lanes, I mean the bus lanes are for cyclists too. The have "LANA BUS" written on then along with the classic Cycle icon in white paint. I've cycled them, much much better with the two lanes, Dublin bus drivers are very good with cyclists, but some of the private operators are clueless.


  • #946
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Good stuff.

    I certainly hope you have a nice big driveway for it.

    Mother above.

    Not at all, he'll have a double garage don't you know. Has to have room for the wife's 4 wheel drive that she brings the kids to school in. :rolleyes:


  • #947
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Why do you both disagree with this ideal?
    It's not realistic.

    Google and Intel are not moving to Mullingar or Westport. They can be attracted to Dublin & surrounding areas if we are lucky.

    It's the same old sop to the rural lobby, while in the real world the IDA will do their best to actually get on with attracting FDI to Ireland. We should be building our infrastructure plan around realistic assumptions for future growth.


  • #948
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,935 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    hmmm wrote:
    Google and Intel are not moving to Mullingar or Westport. They can be attracted to Dublin & surrounding areas if we are lucky.

    How did Apple end up in Cork and Dell in Limerick? Did they not get the memo?


  • #949
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Tell me how wrote: »
    How did Apple end up in Cork and Dell in Limerick? Did they not get the memo?

    tax deals I believe


  • #950
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tell me how wrote: »
    How did Apple end up in Cork and Dell in Limerick? Did they not get the memo?

    Or Cisco in Galway or Facebook in Cork, or Valeo in Tuam, Co. Galway

    Or boston sci and medtronic in galway (and many more).

    Or stryker, Eli lilly, J&J, TYCO and GSK in Cork (and lots of tech places like Maacom who people have propably heard of but are very important in the electonics world).


  • #951
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Tell me how wrote: »
    How did Apple end up in Cork and Dell in Limerick? Did they not get the memo?

    This is just a continuation of the it's Dublin v the Country argument. Limerick and Cork are capable of winning regional office of major international companies and in some cases headquarters.

    However can we stop also the continuation of Dublin v the rest argument by comparing cities like Cork and Limerick to towns the likes of Mullingar and Westport


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