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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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kylith

pleas advice wrote: »

You ask what their views are, that's their views right there
'it's alive! Abortion is murder'

Its no more complicated than that

Why should that view top my view that it’s not alive, abortion isn’t murder, and I should get ultimate day about what’s allowed in my body?

seamus

pleas advice wrote: »

You ask what their views are, that's their views right there
'it's alive! Abortion is murder'

Its no more complicated than that

So what you're saying is that they're simpletons?

If it's "no more complicated than that" in their heads, then clearly they haven't, or refuse to, give it much thought.

Because the issue itself is far more complicated than that, which can't be disregarded with, "Well, I believe it's murder and that's that".

Bannasidhe

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

To paraphrase Panti

"It turns out that women are not the victims of misogyny: misogynists are the victims of misogyny."

Bannasidhe

pleas advice wrote: »

they're not all ignorant misogynist control freaks, out to destroy young girls and women's life's for ****s and giggles...

But that has been the consequence.

ToddyDoody

They call it the ate ammendment in Carlow.

B0jangles

Bannasidhe wrote: »

To paraphrase Panti

"It turns out that women are not the victims of misogyny: misogynists are the victims of misogyny."

You come across this a lot alright - people who think of themselves as good, kind, loving, moral men and women but who will happily vote for things which hurt other people.

Like people who voted against marriage equality - if you pointed out to them that their actions actually hurt the lives of innocent people, they got all huffy and offended that anyone would dare to say they were selfish or unkind. 'I'm entitled to my opinion!' they shouted, enraged at any and all criticism.

PopePalpatine

pleas advice wrote: »

To see where they are coming from, that they're not all ignorant misogynist control freaks, out to destroy young girls and women's life's for ****s and giggles...

#NotAllProLifers

SusieBlue

I was discussing the referendum recently with a pro life relative.

They didn’t have much to offer beyond the usual ‘its wrong, it’s murder etc’ speech.

When he realized he had pretty much no argument he said ‘I’m entitled to have my opinion and have my say on the matter!!’.

The irony of the fact that he was aggressively defending his right to choose to vote on the matter was lost on him, particularly when I pointed out that his choice in the referendum determines whether I will be allowed to have a choice over my own body.
He just didn’t get it.
Some people can’t see the wood from the trees.

pitifulgod

pleas advice wrote: »

You ask what their views are, that's their views right there
'it's alive! Abortion is murder'

Its no more complicated than that

You don't see how that's loaded language? Should women be convicted for murder because of their abortions?

pleas advice

I just used that posters words, call it what you like it's the intentional ending of a genetically separate, human, life.

Call it whatever you like, that's what it is.

Bannasidhe

pleas advice wrote: »

I just used that posters words, call it what you like it's the intentional ending of a genetically separate, human, life.

Call it whatever you like, that's what it is.

So is refusing vital health care treatment but a vote to keep the 8th allows exactly that to happen.

pleas advice

PopePalpatine wrote: »

#NotAllProLifers

What's this nonsense? Do you seriously believe that there are people out there who see a fetus as nothing more than a bunch of cells, a parasite, but are 'pro life' just to 'keep women in their place'?

pitifulgod

pleas advice wrote: »

I just used that posters words, call it what you like it's the intentional ending of a genetically separate, human, life.

Call it whatever you like, that's what it is.

Do you think women should be convicted for abortions obtained here?

pilly

pleas advice wrote: »

What's this nonsense? Do you seriously believe that there are people out there who see a fetus as nothing more than a bunch of cells, a parasite, but are 'pro life' just to 'keep women in their place'?

Methinks the poster doth protest too much. :rolleyes:

January

pleas advice wrote: »

What's this nonsense? Do you seriously believe that there are people out there who see a fetus as nothing more than a bunch of cells, a parasite, but are 'pro life' just to 'keep women in their place'?

Bingo. Yes there are people exactly like that out there.

pleas advice

pitifulgod wrote: »

Do you think women should be convicted for abortions obtained here?

Me, personally. No. Nor for importing abortion pills, or taking them.

kylith

pleas advice wrote: »

I just used that posters words, call it what you like it's the intentional ending of a genetically separate, human, life.

Call it whatever you like, that's what it is.

But why should that view trump my view that it's not alive, abortion isn't murder, and I should have 100% control about what happens my body?

pleas advice

January wrote: »

Bingo. Yes there are people exactly like that out there.

And do you think they are a sizeable proportion, or ...?

pilly

pleas advice wrote: »

Me, personally. No. Nor for importing abortion pills, or taking them.

Grand, so you've no problem with abortion. Go away and stop annoying everyone with your constant questions.

frag420

***Dear Pro Lifers, before you ask what mother would refuse to help their child, that is not the point of the question below! ***

So from reading this thread and others as well as talking to a lot of pro life people both online and in real life one thing that is always put forward as a justification for keeping the 8th is that a fetus inside a woman cannot survive on its own and thus deserves the right to life via the woman's body as it depends on the body of the woman to develop.

Now the pro life side equate a fetus to a child, to a teenager, to an adult etc etc etc...they are all life and are all equal, that much they ave made very clear!

So say a child is born, it is outside the womb, its is a breathing living human. After a month that child develops a fatal condition that requires blood or marrow or an organ(i know they would be too big for a new born but work with me here).

Now much like the fetus inside the womb the child requires the nourishment and care of the mother to live and develop outside the womb as inside the womb.

Are you in agreement that the mother should be forced to provide marrow or blood or an organ to keep that child alive same as you expect a pregnant woman to provide for the unborn?

PhoenixParker

frag420 wrote: »

***Dear Pro Lifers, before you ask what mother would refuse to help their child, that is not the point of the question below! ***

So from reading this thread and others as well as talking to a lot of pro life people both online and in real life one thing that is always put forward as a justification for keeping the 8th is that a fetus inside a woman cannot survive on its own and thus deserves the right to life via the woman's body as it depends on the body of the woman to develop.

Now the pro life side equate a fetus to a child, to a teenager, to an adult etc etc etc...they are all life and are all equal, that much they ave made very clear!

So say a child is born, it is outside the womb, its is a breathing living human. After a month that child develops a fatal condition that requires blood or marrow or an organ(i know they would be too big for a new born but work with me here).

Now much like the fetus inside the womb the child requires the nourishment and care of the mother to live and develop outside the womb as inside the womb.

Are you in agreement that the father who didnt want the baby in the first place should be forced to provide marrow or blood or an organ to keep that child alive same as you expect a pregnant woman to provide for the unborn?

Ftfy

RobertKK

kylith wrote: »

Why should that view top my view that it’s not alive, abortion isn’t murder, and I should get ultimate day about what’s allowed in my body?

If it is not alive, then why does the life in the womb have to be terminated?

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

If it is not alive, then why does the life in the womb have to be terminated?

The pregnancy is terminated.

PopePalpatine

pleas advice wrote: »

What's this nonsense? Do you seriously believe that there are people out there who see a fetus as nothing more than a bunch of cells, a parasite, but are 'pro life' just to 'keep women in their place'?

Yes, I think that in a country of 4.6 million there are some people in Ireland who are pro-life not because of their religious beliefs, but out of batshit-crazy sexism, sometimes the kind that gives rise to conspiracy theories about soy products.

Captain Obvious

frag420 wrote: »

***Dear Pro Lifers, before you ask what mother would refuse to help their child, that is not the point of the question below! ***

So from reading this thread and others as well as talking to a lot of pro life people both online and in real life one thing that is always put forward as a justification for keeping the 8th is that a fetus inside a woman cannot survive on its own and thus deserves the right to life via the woman's body as it depends on the body of the woman to develop.

Now the pro life side equate a fetus to a child, to a teenager, to an adult etc etc etc...they are all life and are all equal, that much they ave made very clear!

So say a child is born, it is outside the womb, its is a breathing living human. After a month that child develops a fatal condition that requires blood or marrow or an organ(i know they would be too big for a new born but work with me here).

Now much like the fetus inside the womb the child requires the nourishment and care of the mother to live and develop outside the womb as inside the womb.

Are you in agreement that the mother should be forced to provide marrow or blood or an organ to keep that child alive same as you expect a pregnant woman to provide for the unborn?

The problem with your example is that nobody has said the relationship between the mother and baby does not change. I doubt you'll find many who say that the relationship between mother and child should be the same as the relationship between mother and fetus in the same way you won't find many who think the relationship between mother and infant are the same as the relationship between mother and teenager.

eviltwin

pleas advice wrote: »

What's this nonsense? Do you seriously believe that there are people out there who see a fetus as nothing more than a bunch of cells, a parasite, but are 'pro life' just to 'keep women in their place'?

I would encourage you to look at some of the comments on the pro life pages and you will find there are people who are exactly like that. I've been told on one of those pages that I'm a slut, I should be sterilised, be jailed, that I'm a terrible mother, that I'm trying to encourage women to lose the run of themselves, I've seen others called similar things or worse. Just for supporting repeal. It's all about control, about shaming normal sexual behaviour and trying to make women feel bad for wanting choice.

Sonics2k

The back and forth here is so pointless.

It's very simple. If you don't want or support abortion, do not get one. But just because you personally dislike it, does not mean that you should prevent others from being able to do so if that is what's right for them.

Quite frankly an awful lot of women I've spoken to about this have said they'd never have an abortion, but know they should have the right to do so.

Buford T. Justice XIX

pilly wrote: »

Grand, so you've no problem with abortion. Go away and stop annoying everyone with your constant questions.

Mod note: pilly, please take a 24 hour break from posting on this thread, please.

Buford T. Justice

Captain Obvious

Sonics2k wrote: »

The back and forth here is so pointless.

It's very simple. If you don't want or support abortion, do not get one. But just because you personally dislike it, does not mean that you should prevent others from being able to do so if that is what's right for them.

Quite frankly an awful lot of women I've spoken to about this have said they'd never have an abortion, but know they should have the right to do so.

The back and forth is only pointless because people like yourself refuse to look at the issue from the the point of view of the other side. Pro life people believe a life is being destroyed. Saying "If you don't want or support abortion, do not get one" to someone who believes this is no different then saying "If you don't support child abuse then don't touch children. No need to prevent others from doing it."