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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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ELM327

pleas advice wrote: »

We'll see after the referendum, I suppose.

Indeed we will.
And I would wager many pounds that it will be, once again, david quinn/Iona ilk that will be drowning their sorrows at the death of the socially conservative society in this little last bastion of imperial church rule we call home.

#repealthe8th

Zubeneschamali

pleas advice wrote: »

Red herring, or some other logical fallacy

Excellent riposte, or some other thing like an idiotic non sequitur.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

pleas advice wrote: »

Do you actually really think that?

Yes, and you're incredibly naive if you don't.

pleas advice

We'll see after the referendum, I suppose.

NuMarvel

pleas advice wrote: »

But that doesn't change the fact that somewhere between a third and a half of the population have, as you say, 'a sincerely held belief that an embryo is a tiny human and therefore entitled to the same rights as a baby or adult'

Please provide a source for this fact please, especially the "entitled to the same rights" part. Because this would contradict what polls show over the last few years; that support for the 8th is minimal, at 15% or so.

.......

This post has been deleted.

seamus

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

We are all pro-life; the anti-abortion crowd chose this name for themselves to tug the heartstrings.

It's marketing.

Those who support legalisation of abortion, aren't pro-abortion. That implies they like abortion and want people to get them. So they called themselves pro-choice instead, this is a positive and more accurate message.

Of course, those in opposition aren't going to call themselves "anti-choice". That's just one step above wearing swastikas. "Anti-abortion" is OK, but it still has a negative connotation - you're defined by being negative, being conservative and opposed to something.
So they went for "pro-life", which is adequately positive but also meaningless enough that you don't have to be pigeonholed into a singular point of view.

NuMarvel

pleas advice wrote: »

Well I mean, for me pro life means anti-(medically unnecessary) abortion.

I mean, it's the ending of a human life they have a problem with, I guess.
That shouldn't be anyone's decision *to* make

That decision is made by at least a dozen women in Ireland every day and pro lifers, or more specifically, pro lifers who oppose change, don't say anything about that. It seems that their issue isn't the ending of a human life, but that it would no longer happen in secret or abroad.

That can't be regarded as being pro life, by any stretch of the term.

pleas advice

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Better start work to repeal the 13th then, because today women have a Constitutional right to make that decision (but with an unnecessary trip to England thrown in).

Red herring, or some other logical fallacy

Zubeneschamali

pleas advice wrote: »

But that doesn't change the fact that somewhere between a third and a half of the population have, as you say, 'a sincerely held belief that an embryo is a tiny human and therefore entitled to the same rights as a baby or adult'

How many of these people support abortion in cases of rape or incest?

In the Citizens assembly, 84% support it for Rape, which suggests that nowhere near a third of people think a fetus is a little live baby.

Edward M

amdublin wrote: »

??

My question is clear. Read your post.
I absolutely agree with the reasons for abortion in it BTW.

pleas advice

Howard Tasteless Bank wrote: »

, and yes, in many cases, rank, raving misogyny.

Do you actually really think that?

amdublin

Edward M wrote: »

But you listed reasons for abortion?
Why not be so blunt as to say why should any woman have to have any reason for abortion?

Edward M

amdublin wrote: »

Well that's where we disagree and my personal opinion is you need to mind your own business.

Who are you or I, to dictate to any woman in the middle (for example) of a ffa that she must carry the baby full term or until it dies inside her. Go and sh1te it'll be a cold day in hell before I advise a woman of that. Or that there is to be no medical intervention until she tips into danger /sepsis. No way hosay. Go away and have your own pregnancy and stay out of someone else's pregnancy.

But you listed reasons for abortion?
Why not be so blunt as to say why should any woman have to have any reason for abortion?

Zubeneschamali

pleas advice wrote: »

I mean, it's the ending of a human life they have a problem with, I guess. That shouldn't be anyone's decision *to* make

Better start work to repeal the 13th then, because today women have a Constitutional right to make that decision (but with an unnecessary trip to England thrown in).

pleas advice

I can indeed. But that doesn't change the fact that somewhere between a third and a half of the population have, as you say, 'a sincerely held belief that an embryo is a tiny human and therefore entitled to the same rights as a baby or adult' and some on the pro-choice side couldn't care less what prolifers are, or what they think.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

There are obviously a multiplicity of reasons why people are pro life. Religious belief or background, personal or family history, a sincerely held belief that an embryo is a tiny human and therefore entitled to the same rights as a baby or adult, force of habit or lack of interest in the issue, and yes, in many cases, rank, raving misogyny.

But the thing is, while those beliefs generally deserve respect when an individual holds them, the upshot of ALL of those beliefs, when they're imposed on a society at large by law, is the oppression and suffering of women, and the punishment of women.

I might have a lovely nice kindhearted belief that paramedics should have 180 days annual leave. The result of that, if I lobbied and made it law, would be pain and death. I don't get to distance myself from those easily observable, dire consequences, just because I didn't set out with those consequences as my goal.

I'd like to turn the question back to the pro-life posters, why do you think other people are pro-choice and can you identify with their reasoning at all?

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

Well I mean, for me pro life means anti-(medically unnecessary) abortion.

I mean, it's the ending of a human life they have a problem with, I guess.
That shouldn't be anyone's decision *to* make

Well that's where we disagree and my personal opinion is you need to mind your own business.

Who are you or I, to dictate to any woman in the middle (for example) of a ffa that she must carry the baby full term or until it dies inside her. Go and sh1te it'll be a cold day in hell before I advise a woman of that. Or that there is to be no medical intervention until she tips into danger /sepsis. No way hosay. Go away and have your own pregnancy and stay out of someone else's pregnancy.

pleas advice

Well I mean, for me pro life means anti-(medically unnecessary) abortion.

I mean, it's the ending of a human life they have a problem with, I guess.
That shouldn't be anyone's decision *to* make

pilly

pleas advice wrote: »

No, not at all. I would like you to ask yourself, "why are these people 'pro-life' ? Can I maybe try to see their point of view, see where they're coming from?"

I understand exactly why people are pro-life and have no problem whatsoever with that.

If you don't want to have an abortion don't have one.

Can you please ask yourself "why you think you should have control over other people's decisions".

JuliusCaesar

We are all pro-life; the anti-abortion crowd chose this name for themselves to tug the heartstrings.

I'm just more pro-existing life; pro-born, you might call it. Rather than pro-potential-life.

I had an abortion myself as a teenager, way back in the late 70s. I was lucky in that I had the information at my fingertips. My then boyfriend came with me to England and paid for it as he was working and I wasn't.

I became a single mother at the age of 32, deciding against abortion on this occasion. I was older, had a job etc. I'd split up with the father before I knew I was pregnant. Although he was initially delighted, he fecked off PDQ. It was MUCH more difficult being a single mother than I had envisaged.

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

No, not at all. I would like you to ask yourself, "why are these people 'pro-life' ? Can I maybe try to see their point of view, see where they're coming from?"

At the end of the day aren't we all Pro Life? But we also realise that practically sometimes it just isn't the right thing for the woman involved. Or the couple involved etc.

Everyone needs to make their own decision of what to do.

NuMarvel

pleas advice wrote: »

No, not at all. I would like you to ask yourself, "why are these people 'pro-life' ? Can I maybe try to see their point of view, see where they're coming from?"

I think a better question is does a person's argument have a rational and coherent basis that stands up to scrutiny. And when I look at the argument of anti-repealers (because not every pro life person is necessarily anti-repeal), my conclusion is; No.

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

Why are pro life people pro life, in your view? Are they all women-hating slut-shamers, or... What?

You know what. I really couldn't care less what prolifers are, or what they think, as long as they stay out of my life and bedroom.

Abortion, contraception and healthcare choices are a decision for each and every individual on their own

pleas advice

No, not at all. I would like you to ask yourself, "why are these people 'pro-life' ? Can I maybe try to see their point of view, see where they're coming from?"

Water John

They coopted the term to themselves. Your simply wanting us all to run down, rabbit holes, with this line of discussion.
It's called baiting.

pleas advice

Why are pro life people pro life, in your view? Are they all women-hating slut-shamers, or... What?

Zubeneschamali

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, I did a DuckDuckGo (because this isn't something I want on my Google search history, or influenced by it) search for "abortion on demand" and "abortion on request".

Per Google Ngram, Abortion on demand is used about 8 times as often.

PopePalpatine

Just out of curiosity, I did a DuckDuckGo (because this isn't something I want on my Google search history, or influenced by it) search for "abortion on demand" and "abortion on request".

For "abortion on demand", I got two Breitbart sharticles in the top 12, along with 6 other pro-life opinion pieces and blogs. "Abortion on request" only returned 1 pro-life opinion piece in the top 12, and also included reports/papers from The Lancet and the UN's Department of Economic & Social Affairs.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

pleas advice wrote: »

Well, if you're saying 'abortion on demand' is only used to portray women as spoiled brats... Yes I disagree with that.
Abortion on demand is what it is, theres no judgement in that statement.

So why not use the term abortion on request, that would be the most neutral and accurate phrasing. It's loaded language, which the pro-life movement have been excellent at ever since they named themselves that.