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Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

marno21

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-2040-strategy-will-kill-rural-ireland-according-to-coalition-825724.html

Deja vu anyone?

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BrianBoru00

abitofacomedian wrote: »

You will see subways like that in cities that had a lot of car centric development in the 1960s and 1970s. All current design advice is against segregation like that. For anti-social reasons, and for treating pedestrians like second class citizens. When I worked in the UK we were bricking pedestrian subways up.

By the way I pass a bricked up subway in Coolock on my daily commute.

I don't mean this to come across as being hard on you, apologies if it does I am not good with words sometimes, but your post is indicative of an attitude I encounter a lot. Dublin is described as being a "small city" or "low density" or unimportant because it doesn't have something that London or New York has. We shouldn't compare Dublin to a mega city like the aforementioned, there are only about 10 of them in the planet and they operate in a different orbit. But Dublin stands up well as a mid sized city, and should be compared to the likes of Manchester, Munich, Oslo, Stockholm etc. We are behind those cities in some ways and ahead of them in others, due to when in time development booms occurred and what was the prevailing wisdom at the time.

...directly as a result of this thread I educated myself on this! - its fascinating really. Basically there are top of the pile Alpha cities followed then Beta cities and Gamma Cities. Then there are sufficiency cities.
Within Alpha cities there are further distinctions. Alpha++ two world wide - NYC and London - the two most in tune with the world economy. Then there are seven Alpha + cities - Singapore, Hong Kong, Paris, Beijing, Tokyo, Dubai, Shanghai.

Alpha Cities of which there are 19 including Amsterdam,Madrid,Chicago & Frankfurt.

And then there are Alpha - cities where Dublin lies in cities like Washington, San Fran, Barcalona & Bangkok

They're regarded in the top tier as regards world wide economy focused on accountancy, advertising, banking/finance, and law.

For information purposes - some cities in the second main tier - Beta include Caracas, Prague, Capetown, Cairo.

As far as I can see no other Irish city makes even the Sufficiency list. For comparison - Liverpool is regarded as high Sufficiency.

jmayo

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The Dutch should of been underwater 100 years ago...human ingenuity eh!

how much have sea levels risen in the last 100 years and how much will thy rise over the next 100 years?

bk wrote: »

I'm all of that, family and kid in a lovely apartment in Dublin.
...
A 2 bed apartment is perfectly fine if you have one child. Even fine with two kids if they aren't teenagers.

All over Europe kids being brought up in apartments, it is perfectly fine, we just aren't use to it. Or we even look done on it thinking of it like council flats.
..

Have you compared some of those apartments in Europe and what spaces are available nearby for kids with what has historically been on offer in Ireland ?
Wait till your kid gets bigger or you have another one and I would bet tonight's lottery you will be on the move out of that apartment of yours.

cgcsb wrote: »

In Dublin City Centre we can provide more trams, buses and trains as demand grows. We cannot do that in rural areas or small towns where there is insufficient density of employment and population to support such services.

You added a new tram service the other week and it came to a grinding halt the other day.
How long did it take to build the two unconnected tram lines in the first place ?

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin's infrastructure is limited because we've blown the infrastructure budget on MEGA motorways to Tuam and New Ross. ,maintenance of an impossibly large road L road network and lets not forget an impossible to implement broadband scheme. Altogether billions wasted on that rubbish.

One would swear listening to your shyte that Dublin actually carry out planning and infrastructure projects ala Hong kong.

Remember the M50, how half way through it's construction it was realised it would not be fit for purpose, but rather than do it right, it was completed only to be turned into a road work again.

How much was the cost overrun on Luas or are you going to blame that on someone in Tuam or New Ross ?

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Stanley still exists but lost 30 jobs last year, the place has about 25 employees. had 600 in the mid 60s, the Glass had 3000 up until 1990. Which illustrates the way forward. The future of Waterford has to be on 21st century technology not harking back to fashioning lumps of metal into something you fire a light in to. Hence the need for a tech biased University.

Yep that is why the likes of Germany, Italy and some more European countries held onto their small native manufacturing.
They didn't go down the route of the UK which now is going to be begging foreign owned manufacturing not to leave due to Brexit.

The way forward is a mixed economy not one based totally on FDI and foreign tech companies that can up sticks overnight because the tax rate changes somewhere else.

The comment above sounds eerily like the shyte that was pervasive a while back about a knowledge economy, when really it all boiled down to us attracting foreign owned tech companies to site bases here and they would avail of our cheap if sometimes non existent corpo tax.

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Staring into screens and writing the code that runs the applications on your pc, tablet and smartphone. Creating a great deal of value.

But how many people are actually employed writing code and how many are actually just in support and backup?

jobbridge4life

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

I wont link as it would not be overly difficult to get identifiable info.

Grand yeah...

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

I was including the NBP in saying this. In my area anyway what's happening is eir is laying fibre along all main roads and going in maybe 300m in by roads and stopping there and not finishing in to the ends of these roads or serving the houses further in. They are then expecting the NBP to complete the work instead of just finishing the job themselves while at the same time covering enough area with their fibre roll out to make it far too messy and uneconomical for another operator to start laying fibre.

In our case the fibre will stop about 500m from my home house (which is next to where I plan to build my own house also), in fact there are more houses not being connected on the road than are being connected which makes no sense from an economic point of view.

You couldn't have been, and most especially, not if the statement you made in the post I quoted previously was true. The entire premise of the NBP was that there was a demonstrable market failure to provide essential services to large swathes of the population/areas of the country. government, and EU funding, that is proposed to pay for the NBP is dependent on the proceeding to be true.
The 300,000 may have suddenly become 'commercial' but that should not be considered in the absence of the proposed plan.

PopePalpatine

Pedestrian underpasses remind me of that Peep Show episode where Mark gets robbed.

Sam Russell

snotboogie wrote: »

ACCOUNTING & FINANCE SALARIES IN COMMERCE & INDUSTRY (LARGE COMPANIES 500+ EMPLOYEES)
Financial Controller Dublin- 85k - 90k Cork 75k - 85k Limerick 70k - 80k Galway 70k - 80k

There are not that many companies outside Dublin with 500+ employees and vacancies for Financial Controllers. Smaller companies pay smaller salaries, and outside Dublin - much smaller.

Dyr

They put in under passes in parts of Dublin in the 60's/70s, they were not a success

[Deleted User]

cgcsb wrote: »

What year are you posting from? Milton is all roundabouts and car centric development.

Would you believe that the original plans had provision for light rail & trolleybuses, they just didn't bother including them when they actually started constructing it.

It would not be too difficult to retrospectively install some of the routes, but most are lost.

Brian CivilEng

defrule wrote: »

I think mentality is something that needs to really change on top of the all the tangible developments that should happen.

As an example, where in Dublin do we have underground tunnels to cross roads?

I never noticed we were missing these until I saw them in other cities. Instead of putting traffic lights everywhere, tunnels like these mean cars and pedestrians don't come into conflict.

This mindset of really thinking about how to gain maximum utility from land including the vertical aspects is something we really need.

You will see subways like that in cities that had a lot of car centric development in the 1960s and 1970s. All current design advice is against segregation like that. For anti-social reasons, and for treating pedestrians like second class citizens. When I worked in the UK we were bricking pedestrian subways up.

By the way I pass a bricked up subway in Coolock on my daily commute.

I don't mean this to come across as being hard on you, apologies if it does I am not good with words sometimes, but your post is indicative of an attitude I encounter a lot. Dublin is described as being a "small city" or "low density" or unimportant because it doesn't have something that London or New York has. We shouldn't compare Dublin to a mega city like the aforementioned, there are only about 10 of them in the planet and they operate in a different orbit. But Dublin stands up well as a mid sized city, and should be compared to the likes of Manchester, Munich, Oslo, Stockholm etc. We are behind those cities in some ways and ahead of them in others, due to when in time development booms occurred and what was the prevailing wisdom at the time.

Zebra3

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I for one am sick and tired of the whinging about the Dublin property crisis. Its a crisis entirely manufactured by the Dublin centric brigade. You'd wonder how many of them are landlords behind it all.

Manufactured by the money centric brigade. Nobody who cares about a city/region would manufacture a housing crisis within it.

Spanish Eyes

defrule wrote: »

I think mentality is something that needs to really change on top of the all the tangible developments that should happen.

As an example, where in Dublin do we have underground tunnels to cross roads?

I never noticed we were missing these until I saw them in other cities. Instead of putting traffic lights everywhere, tunnels like these mean cars and pedestrians don't come into conflict.

This mindset of really thinking about how to gain maximum utility from land including the vertical aspects is something we really need.

People don't like them, think they are dangerous places, and with Garda presence being minimal in Dublin I don't blame them at all.

They will also solve the street sleeper crisis in an instant.

Not going to happen.

roadmaster

So when is the pale being rebuilt?

[Deleted User]

onedmc wrote: »

Thats where your wrong, they don't pay their taxes just like everyone else. Dublin accounts for over 80% of the tax take in Ireland.

The average individual tax payer living in a rural area pays the same or possibly more tax than the average urban dweller so yes people living in rural areas pay their taxes and deserve to benefit from these taxes.

blanch152 wrote: »

Could you produce some hard evidence to back up your statements about the benefit of the university to Galway (other than Donegal Tuesday)?

You can't be serious? If you can't see how approx 28k students (about 1/4 of the cities population) between GMIT and NUIG along with well over 3k people employed by both institues benefits the economy of Galway massively alone before even discussing how both institues feed the businesses and MNCs in the area then I really don't think its worth discussing with you.

Tell me how

blanch152 wrote: »

Could you produce some hard evidence to back up your statements about the benefit of the university to Galway (other than Donegal Tuesday)?

Are you suggesting it is no benefit?

Do you need a research paper to agree that 18,000 students living in the region boosts that economy?

Here are success stories from the Technology Transfer Office at NUIG which have benefited some businesses in the region thus ultimately improving employment opportunities and showcasing the university well which appeals to med-tech companies one or two which are located in Galway.

http://www.tto.nuigalway.ie/en/success-stories

defrule

I think mentality is something that needs to really change on top of the all the tangible developments that should happen.

As an example, where in Dublin do we have underground tunnels to cross roads?
40868726.9236e516.560.jpg?r2

I never noticed we were missing these until I saw them in other cities. Instead of putting traffic lights everywhere, tunnels like these mean cars and pedestrians don't come into conflict.

This mindset of really thinking about how to gain maximum utility from land including the vertical aspects is something we really need.

AlmightyCushion

Shurimgreat wrote: »

including putting on hold major new jobs announcements for Dublin.

People have suggested this a lot but how do you put on hold job creation in Dublin? Serious question. I'm talking about actively putting it on hold in Dublin as opposed to just incentivising job creation elsewhere in the country. Would we be bringing in new legislation to ban new companies setting up and existing companies from hiring new people in dublin?

It's a ludicrous idea. It'll never happen for a start but if it did it would be a disaster. It would also stop companies setting up or expanding outside of Dublin as they would be worried about the same thing happening in other locations as well. Not to mention companies who set up here and then open up in other areas of the country. What about retail/hotels/etc? No new retail stores would be allowed to open in Dublin under your plan. Companies choosing to locate in other countries over Ireland over this (which would happen) would harm growth, tax take, employment and countless other things that would negatively affect the whole country.

Tell me how

blanch152 wrote: »

How are you going to persuade anyone to live in Carrick-on-Shannon instead of Dublin, for example?

The people who have had to move from Carrick-on-Shannon and the surrounding area to Dublin to get work might be interested...

One hour travelling from Carrick-on Shannon will get you to Sligo, Athlone, Claremorris, Enniskillen, Cavan.

Where do you need to live to be within one hour of work in Dublin?

blanch152

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think the University thing is a big factor in the success of an urban area. Galway relies heavily on the university for employment but also from the economic gains of thousands of students staying there.
There probably is a case for a university in Waterford and to grow it in the long run. Certainly the focus needs to be taken off Dublin.

Could you produce some hard evidence to back up your statements about the benefit of the university to Galway (other than Donegal Tuesday)?

blanch152

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Another one of those misleading statistics which I for one am tiring of.

No-one disputes that most well paying jobs are in Dublin.
No-one should dispute either that most young people are forced to live and work and pay their taxes in Dublin, despite the fact a large percentage come from a rural/non Dublin background.
Dublin is like a black hole sucking people in from outside of Dublin. They have no choice but to become part of the chaos. The choice of jobs outside Dublin is poor to say the least. Encouraging more people into Dublin is not the answer. Most people apart from a few hold outs know this.
Brave policies need to be implemented by our politicians in taking the focus away from Dublin including putting on hold major new jobs announcements for Dublin. Its never ideal turning away new jobs. But for the sanity of Dubliners and to ease the accommodation crisis it needs to be done.
There are only so many sardines you can squeeze into the tin.

What a terrible idea.

How are you going to persuade anyone to live in Carrick-on-Shannon instead of Dublin, for example?

The NDP is expected to provide for Dublin growing by a little with the focus on high-density, high-rise, but improving the quality of life through better public transport.

However, the main focus is to be on growing Galway, Cork, Limerick and Waterford (and apparently Sligo and Athlone have been added on to this as a stupid afterthought). Growing those four cities as a counterweight to Dublin is the only feasible solution to promoting development outside Dublin.

Tell me how

pilly wrote: »

I don't know how you reckon reduced child care costs? A lot of people rely on family for child care, if they move away from them then they have very much increased costs.

Obviously I'm talking about those that are not gone from home for so long due to no longer having to travel to Dublin, or are using family who are living where they are originally from, i.e. not Dublin.

Idbatterim

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Meanwhile in the real world, less than 1000 residential units were built in Dublin in 2016. It will take decades for new residential units to catch up with demand. So high property and rental prices are here to stay for Dublin. People need to cop themselves onto that fact and stop burying their heads in the sand.

this is a few years old this article, but in 2014, there was enough zoned land in Dublin for 46,000 houses, read it! you dont think the banks and developers and all the other hangers on will be throwing around the cash if there is money to be made? you think they have an ideological opposition to just residential property and that is why they arent building. Funny how they are throwing up hotels, student accomodation and offices...

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/enough-zoned-land-in-dublin-for-46-000-houses-1.1890766

pilly

Tell me how wrote: »

Obviously you have to take my word for this but I know someone with that role in Shannon and they are on north of 80K. Significantly north.

I understand your premise but a lot of people would accept less salaries for more balanced quality of life and reduced commuting and child care costs.

I don't know how you reckon reduced child care costs? A lot of people rely on family for child care, if they move away from them then they have very much increased costs.

BrianBoru00

Sam Russell wrote: »

If there is a history of industry, workers learn new skills easier than if there is no history. Waterford also had a foundry making Waterford Stanley ranges - I am not sure if it is still there - I think it was taken over by Aga.

Can you point out any studies or data to back up this quite ridiculous statement?

snotboogie

Sam Russell wrote: »

Tell me how wrote: »

Care to expand on that? In a way that's a valid argument?

I know someone who was earning €80 k in Dublin but could find no job paying even half that down the country. There were no jobs paying even close to half the Dublin rate for the same level of job. [Accountancy - Financial Controller]

ACCOUNTING & FINANCE SALARIES IN COMMERCE & INDUSTRY (LARGE COMPANIES 500+ EMPLOYEES)
Financial Controller Dublin- 85k - 90k Cork 75k - 85k Limerick 70k - 80k Galway 70k - 80k

Tell me how

Sam Russell wrote: »

I know someone who was earning €80 k in Dublin but could find no job paying even half that down the country. There were no jobs paying even close to half the Dublin rate for the same level of job. [Accountancy - Financial Controller]

Obviously you have to take my word for this but I know someone with that role in Shannon and they are on north of 80K. Significantly north.

I understand your premise but a lot of people would accept less salaries for more balanced quality of life and reduced commuting and child care costs.

Shurimgreat

Idbatterim wrote: »

good luck with that, they can try and effect change, but it will have very little to no impact. You think even if there were more or certain jobs in athlone, limerick, that they are in any way comparable to Dublin?

Vicious cycle mentality which unfortunately is all too common.
"Dublin will always be best, therefore we must build up and encourage more jobs in Dublin even though we clearly have nowhere to accommodate everyone. Well then we must build up Dublin even more and hope the housing crisis solves itself. If we invite in the people, then we can build it (as opposed to the opposite). But turns out we are disastrous at bringing on stream new accommodation. The answer? invite in more people to Dublin."

I for one am sick and tired of the whinging about the Dublin property crisis. Its a crisis entirely manufactured by the Dublin centric brigade. You'd wonder how many of them are landlords behind it all.

Sam Russell

Tell me how wrote: »

Care to expand on that? In a way that's a valid argument?

I know someone who was earning €80 k in Dublin but could find no job paying even half that down the country. There were no jobs paying even close to half the Dublin rate for the same level of job. [Accountancy - Financial Controller]

Shurimgreat

Idbatterim wrote: »

really? do you know how much zoned land there is in Dublin? all they have to do is make apartment construction far cheaper, ditch dual aspect being a requirement, all of the underground parking in central areas, reduce lift core ratio. Dont want one of these apartments, buy or rent one of the other tens of thousands of existing ones out there...

Wait till you see how much residential then starts flying up, the amount of hotels and student accommodation being built is staggering here, same with commercial. Do you know why that is? because it makes bloody economic sense for developers, unlike residential. With the current situation and parameters.

guess what you get then, way more apartments, way more social housing, way more state income from construction. So you tell me why they are not implementing this, when the changes dont just cost nothing, would actually deliver a fortune windfall!

What are the existing residents worried about in Ranelagh, Terenure and countless other suburbs worried about? That those areas will be raised to the ground for apartments :rolleyes:

I dont even think property prices for houses or apartments in those areas would fall, they just wouldnt rise as much.

you do realise that prices here are rising because of massive demand, that the government has slammed a massive brake on? As part of the rural v urban (mainly Dublin) agenda and also as current Councillors dont want more development in their area. It is at local and national level here...

Meanwhile in the real world, less than 1000 residential units were built in Dublin in 2016. It will take decades for new residential units to catch up with demand. So high property and rental prices are here to stay for Dublin. People need to cop themselves onto that fact and stop burying their heads in the sand.

Tell me how

Sam Russell wrote:

Pay.

Care to expand on that? In a way that's a valid argument?

Sam Russell

Tell me how wrote: »

In what way would they not be. In your view?

Pay.

Tell me how

Idbatterim wrote:

good luck with that, they can try and effect change, but it will have very little to no impact. You think even if there were more or certain jobs in athlone, limerick, that they are in any way comparable to Dublin?

In what way would they not be. In your view?