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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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pleas advice

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It will be forgotten by next week.

its forgotten already by most on this thread, ...

Flower124

judeboy101 wrote: »

Barbie! wrote: »

I believe that any vote to repeal it will be defeated. It's like the first time Obama was going for President. When people were polled they said they'd vote for him cause they didn't want to appear racist. If the polls were true he should have won by another 15-18 points.

Same with abortion here. If your against it you keep your mouth shut cause you just get shouted down.

For the record if it comes to a vote I'll vote to repeal it cause I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

Do all women do that now? I've never done any of the three. Funny that.
Aren't we of only 2-3 countries in the whole of Europe that don't allow abortion? I think we are starting to look to other countries that we are in the dark ages.

Flower124

judeboy101 wrote: »

Barbie! wrote: »

I believe that any vote to repeal it will be defeated. It's like the first time Obama was going for President. When people were polled they said they'd vote for him cause they didn't want to appear racist. If the polls were true he should have won by another 15-18 points.

Same with abortion here. If your against it you keep your mouth shut cause you just get shouted down.

For the record if it comes to a vote I'll vote to repeal it cause I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

Flower124

erica74 wrote: »

I can't remember if I've contributed to this thread already, I think I may have at different stages.
The conversation about the 8th is everywhere, it's hard to escape it, whether you want to or not.

Throughout my life, I have often thought of how the 8th could have impacted me. My brother sexually abused me for years when I was a child. I often think about if I had ended up pregnant as a result of the abuse. The resulting baby would have been a baby born from incest with who knows what sort of severe health problems and I would have been a seriously damaged person as a result, I am damaged enough as is.

When I think of the 8th, I think of other young girls, young women and women in general who are being abused, by a partner or a family member and the impact the 8th (as it is) may have on them.

I fully support abortion, abortions for every woman who wants one, no matter what the reason. My experience is just one of a thousand reasons why a woman might seek an abortion.
I think back to being 10 years old and not understanding a fucking thing about my life and I am scared for myself. It's a terrifying thought. What if.

well said Erica. The biggest problem in this country is sex abuse. Ireland has a horrendous history of sex abuse. Women who were raped in the past were thrown into magdalene laundries. Ireland does not have a good international reputation when it comes to women's rights.

kylith

judeboy101 wrote: »

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

If a woman chooses to be circumcised, chooses to join the world's oldest profession, or chooses to become a surrogate for a childless couple then what harm does that do to anyone?

Flower124

I say this, no joke.
I remember thinking 'life is absolute hell'. I was also like Erika sexually abused as a child and an adult. I remember constantly thinking 'life is hell'. It was only when I left Ireland I realised I didnt have to be abused, and shame shame on Ireland for letting sexual abuse of women go on for so long. I can never get my childhood back.

Flower124

kylith wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

If a woman chooses to be circumcised, chooses to join the world's oldest profession, or chooses to become a surrogate for a childless couple then what harm does that do to anyone?

I have yet to see any story anywhere of a woman choosing to be circumcised. Most stories involve the female child being held down and cut with an unsanitized razor, so I am not sure where this is comig from

kylith

Flower124 wrote: »

I have yet to see any story anywhere of a woman choosing to be circumcised. Most stories involve the female child being held down and cut with an unsanitized razor, so I am not sure where this is comig from

Barbie said:

...I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

Whereupon Judeboy brought up FGM.

As I said, if a woman chooses to do it, then that is her choice. The issue with FGM now is that the woman whose body it is does not have a choice. But if she had the choice and she chose to do it, then that is her business and no-one else's.

Mr. CooL ICE

Lads, that's a comment that was posted almost a year ago. You're probably not going to get a response there

January

The anti choice side have succeeded in getting another pro choice meeting cancelled in the Blanchardstown area. Less than a day before it was due to take place.

Oldtree

January wrote: »

The anti choice side have succeeded in getting another pro choice meeting cancelled in the Blanchardstown area. Less than a day before it was due to take place.

How?

posturingpat

January wrote: »

The anti choice side have succeeded in getting another pro choice meeting cancelled in the Blanchardstown area. Less than a day before it was due to take place.

Great to see it.

eviltwin

posturingpat wrote: »

Great to see it.

What's great about shutting down discussion? No matter what your personal views people should be able to meet.

Anyway it wasnt very successful, the meeting is still going ahead just in a different venue.

January

Oldtree wrote: »

January wrote: »

The anti choice side have succeeded in getting another pro choice meeting cancelled in the Blanchardstown area. Less than a day before it was due to take place.

How?

By leaving one star reviews on Facebook stating they'd never visit the restaurant again because they were holding a pro choice event and phoning the restaurant to say they'd boycott them if it went ahead. Similar to what happened with Douglas and kaldi in Ashtown who cancelled and captain Americas but they went ahead with the meeting anyway.

posturingpat

eviltwin wrote: »

What's great about shutting down discussion? No matter what your personal views people should be able to meet.

Anyway it wasnt very successful, the meeting is still going ahead just in a different venue.

Meetings are no craic, should just be slanging matches on the street. "You're a murderer" and "you hate women you bible bashing freak" are what it's all about.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Brought some refreshments to the repeal people in Cork city centre there, very busy stall, an old lady was trying to give them money but they couldn't take cash donations and were giving her the info to donate online, her grandson was with her and said he'd show her how to do it, they both toddled off with their badges

nice little intergenerational moment.

King of Kings

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

600,000 people voted against the right to travel back then, but I have never heard anyone ever say that they were one of them.

Very shy crew.

I'm pro life and I voted for that referendum.
I can't control what others do abroad much as I mighnt like it.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Does it come up often in conversation. I don't know how a single person voted in that referendum.

I did - like most referendums (or is it referenda??) - after the hand-wringing and/or excessive jubilation most rational people get on with their lives.

pilly wrote: »

I know pro-life people who grit their teeth every time Iona is mentioned because they know that those sort of people do no good for the pro-life side.

.

I'm pro life and I'm one of those people. I like David Quinn as a speaker in that he speaks well but Iona's arguments are often counter productive. Ronan Mullen is a really smart guy with a good command of language but wasted on the shote Iona come out with sadly , of which he is a disciple.

I think also the media is quite biased in a liberal way and certainly pro-choice, so they love going to Iona for comment cos it alienates people from Iona and my association the pro life view. Iona are too thick to notice this and can't pass a microphone.
.

volchitsa

King of Kings wrote: »

I'm pro life and I voted for that referendum.
I can't control what others do abroad much as I mighnt like it.

So you would be against a law that punished people for taking their daughters back to their home country to undergo FGM?

Or taking Irish children to Asia to abuse them?

Really?

King of Kings wrote: »

Ronan Mullen is a really smart guy with a good command of language but wasted on the shote Iona come out with sadly , of which he is a disciple.

So when Ronan Mullen said that the parents in TFMR have no right to grieve for their children, or implies that Savita Halappanavar may have tried to abort her baby, that's someone who is smart and with a good command of language?

Seems to me like an utter gobsh1te who is not even bright enough to realize how hateful he makes the prolife viewpoint seem.

King of Kings wrote: »

I think also the media is quite biased in a liberal way and certainly pro-choice, so they love going to Iona for comment cos it alienates people from Iona and my association the pro life view. Iona are too thick to notice this and can't pass a microphone.
.

You need to make up your mind about what you want. If they didn't ask Iona, and Mullen for that matter, for their opinions you'd probably be screaming that they were being silenced.

Instead you're complaining that their own words make them look bad, and blaming the media for letting us hear them.

At what point do you start wondering whether it's what they've got to say that's the problem?

Yer Da sells Avon

King of Kings wrote: »

I think also the media is quite biased in a liberal way and certainly pro-choice, so they love going to Iona for comment cos it alienates people from Iona and my association the pro life view. Iona are too thick to notice this and can't pass a microphone.

If I was a supporter of forcing women to either remain pregnant against their will or go abroad, I'd be thankful that the media go to Iona, who at least have the benefit of appearing fairly mainstream, and not some of the other organisations, like Youth Defence.

It's difficult to come across positively when you spend your whole time dictating other people's lives according to your own moral likes and dislikes (whether that's marriage equality, divorce or abortion), but Iona do it a whole lot more professionally than any other group.

[Deleted User]

King of Kings wrote: »

I'm pro life and I voted for that referendum.
I can't control what others do abroad much as I mighnt like it.
.

But, if you had voted against it, then you absolutely could control what others do abroad.
Just more hypocrisy & nimbyism

King of Kings

volchitsa wrote: »

So you would be against a law that punished people for taking their daughters back to their home country to undergo FGM?

Or taking Irish children to Asia to abuse them?

Really?

wtf have those issues got to do with the debate on the 8th. I believe in the right to travel and I believe the local laws are the laws to be adhered to - since you asked.
Otherwise nothing is really workable...

hence I can somewhat legally smoke weed in holland and not be arrested in ireland for it.

volchitsa wrote: »

So when Ronan Mullen said that the parents in TFMR have no right to grieve for their children, or implies that Savita Halappanavar may have tried to abort her baby, that's someone who is smart and with a good command of language?

Seems to me like an utter gobsh1te who is not even bright enough to realize how hateful he makes the prolife viewpoint seem.

how does he being "hateful" as you say (your words) diminish his command of the language and his intellect..you are talking about different things.
Your point makes no sense....

volchitsa wrote: »

You need to make up your mind about what you want. If they didn't ask Iona, and Mullen for that matter, for their opinions you'd probably be screaming that they were being silenced.

Instead you're complaining that their own words make them look bad, and blaming the media for letting us hear them.

At what point do you start wondering whether it's what they've got to say that's the problem?

I'll say it simpler for you...Iona don't represent pro-life people only a minority - the media act as if they do and everybody in any way pro-life gets lumped with them.
I'm not religious so wtf have I in common with Iona bar this single issue.

Your point is a bizarre take on what I wrote.

bubblypop wrote: »

But, if you had voted against it, then you absolutely could control what others do abroad.
Just more hypocrisy & nimbyism

weird point tbh...I believe people should travel if they want...

Whats wrong with not dictating what happens in other countries? esp since I don't live there. I am Irish and vote in Ireland only - that's where I have influence

I think abortion is morally wrong - but I'm going over to other countries to lecture them on it. It's not my home.

I'm not some Zappone character dropped in to lecture the natives.

By that logic we should legalise drugs in ireland - btw I'd be in favour of that - solely because irish people got aboard to get wasted where drugs are decriminalised or legal.
Just cos somebody else does it , does mean it's right here.
It's too simple a point.

volchitsa

King of Kings wrote: »

wtf have those issues got to do with the debate on the 8th. I believe in the right to travel and I believe the local laws are the laws to be adhered to - since you asked.
Otherwise nothing is really workable...

hence I can somewhat legally smoke weed in holland and not be arrested in ireland for it.

So it's fair enough to compare travelling for an abortion to travelling to smoke weed but you can't see my point about travelling to abort a pregnancy vs travelling to abuse children?

I find that hard to credit.

King of Kings wrote: »

how does he being "hateful" as you say (your words) diminish his command of the language and his intellect..you are talking about different things.
Your point makes no sense....

Makes sense if you think it is counterproductive to make that sort of comments.
But maybe you see nothing repulsive about them.

Im puzzled why you think Iona are counterproductive then. What do they say that people might react badly to, that Mullen doesn't?

King of Kings wrote: »

weird point tbh...I believe people should travel if they want...

Including to abuse their or other people's children? Really?

King of Kings wrote: »

Whats wrong with not dictating what happens in other countries? esp since I don't live there. I am Irish and vote in Ireland only - that's where I have influence

I think abortion is morally wrong - but I'm going over to other countries to lecture them on it. It's not my home.

We voted to allow Irish people to do the same thing though, and we could have stopped them if we hadnt voted in the 13th. We dont allow people to travel to Switzerland to assist their friends to commit suicide legally - as Gail O'Rorke found out.

King of Kings wrote: »

I'm not some Zappone character dropped in to lecture the natives.

By that logic we should legalise drugs in ireland - btw I'd be in favour of that - solely because irish people got aboard to get wasted where drugs are decriminalised or legal.
Just cos somebody else does it , does mean it's right here.
It's too simple a point.

Not the problem though. As Ive said above.

Yer Da sells Avon

King of Kings wrote: »

I think abortion is morally wrong - but I'm going over to other countries to lecture them on it. It's not my home.

I think abortion is morally wrong too - but I don't think it should be illegal. It's not my body. It's not about me. If I voted against repealing the 8th Amendment, I would be making it about me.

Also, it's happening anyway, whether I like it or not, so it makes sense to me that it should be free, safe, legal and accessible. I think the referendum will pass with a healthy majority because most people, whether they agree or disagree with abortion itself, are pragmatic. I think that's why it's impossible to find many non-religious people willing to speak out against a woman's right to choose - it's not a black & white issue.

King of Kings wrote:

I'm not some Zappone character dropped in to lecture the natives.

Nor is Katherine Zappone. She has been an Irish citizen for twenty-three years.

pitifulgod

King of Kings wrote: »

how does he being "hateful" as you say (your words) diminish his command of the language and his intellect..you are talking about different things.
Your point makes no sense....

He alienates the public because of what he says. Concluding that Savita would have aborted child regardless of septicemia shows that he's uninformed or incapable of arguing points to the point where he just makes stuff up. He doesn't actually argue the points, he gets emotive and manipulative but doesn't tend to have corroborative evidence for points. These illustrate both a lack of intellect and language.

Loafing Oaf

_Dara_ wrote: »

This is true. I’m wary of declarations about the strength of one’s own position, no matter the side. The polls will decide. Do your campaigning, try to convince people but don’t be cocky about the outcome because you don’t know what it will be.

There's a case for geeing up the troops, sounding bullish in the public arena. The problem is when you start believing your own publicity and basing your strategy on delusions. I remember Marc Coleman had a pro-life guy on his radio show in the run-up to POLDPA, and the guy seemed to be confident that the bill would be defeated in the Dail. Coleman was telling him this was crazy, that he needed to accept this battle was lost and move on to the next one.

nice_guy80

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/medics-diverse-opinions-on-abortion-must-be-heard-827729.html

cannot believe that a doctor could hold such an uneducated narrow view on treatment for their patients

Mr. CooL ICE

nice_guy80 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/medics-diverse-opinions-on-abortion-must-be-heard-827729.html

cannot believe that a doctor could hold such an uneducated narrow view on treatment for their patients

Dr Máire Neasta Nic Gearailt is a GP and was nominated by Save the 8th to write this article.

That explains it anyway

Loafing Oaf

nice_guy80 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/medics-diverse-opinions-on-abortion-must-be-heard-827729.html

cannot believe that a doctor could hold such an uneducated narrow view on treatment for their patients

GPS won’t be expected to conduct ultrasounds will they?

seamus

nice_guy80 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/medics-diverse-opinions-on-abortion-must-be-heard-827729.html

cannot believe that a doctor could hold such an uneducated narrow view on treatment for their patients

So many fallacies in one column. I wonder if she even still practices.

She's whinging that GPs haven't been consulted on legislation that hasn't been written yet.

Implying that GPs will be "required" to offer abortion services (they won't).

Claiming that there are open questions about how the abortion pills are to be prescribed and managed - questions that have been answered and procedures that have been in practice for decades in other countries.

And of course, finishing off with the lie that the committee on the eighth was limited to pro-choice speakers.

I sincerely hope this woman doesn't practice any more. She's incredibly dishonest and manipulative.

rainbow kirby

She appears to be affiliated with Every Life Counts and Youth Defence are linking items by her. Enough said.