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Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

Autochange

Bear markets
Fud
Regulation
Wall Street manipulation
The supposed tether ticking time bomb

What are your thoughts? Have you cashed out? Have you been buying the dips?

MOD NOTE:
Its good to see healthy debate and discussion taking place and I am sure every supporter of cryptocurrency and blockchain can agree that the contrarian viewpoint is worthwhile reading, if only to act as an anchor and help prevent investors from getting carried away in an echo chamber of "everything is wonderful, just keep going"

However, there have been a few reported posts recently which I did not action as I wanted to see the thread level out itself rather than start forcing viewpoints and I have been in two minds about that decision.

I'm not going to single any posters out but I'm going to ask that all posters read the forum charter and I want to point out that it was established years ago in the Television forum, that dropping in on a forum to tell the followers of that forums topic (in that case a particular tv show) that it was all crap and only idiots watched it etc etc was the exact definition of being a dick and attempting to troll. I know this because I was the mod of the forum at the time. Now look at the forum charter again.

There is pretty much one rule on this forum : if you cannot discuss in a civil manner, and I mean discuss, not soapbox or attack, then you have absolutely no business posting here and I have no qualms about removing your ability to do so.

This forum is for people that have in interest in cryptocurrencies, blockchain and their application to financial investments. that can be positive or negative but if you really feel the need to start pulling out memes / hiding insults in imaginary hashtags / attacking personalities or just generally being a dick there are other forums you can post in where I will let the local mods determine if it is within the scope of allowable behaviour. Here, it is not.

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makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

And what if the person you are paying on the other end stiffs you for what you bought? What if they were selling a non-existent product under a fake name on Ebay?

Bank transfers account for a substantial amount of money transfer. One way or another, you pay for bank transfers. They are not 'insured' in the way that you describe. Bitcoin can be sent via escrow systems - there's your peace of mind.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

How do you mean, hoping for the best? Money is transferred from one crypto wallet to another - simples.

And what if the person you are paying on the other end stiffs you for what you bought? What if they were selling a non-existent product under a fake name on Ebay?

Anthracite

grindle wrote: »

Typical old-guard speaking about it - where have you been?

This is a 'wealth advisor' expressing an opinion. I was speaking to my wealth advisor on Thursday, he had opinions too.

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

We can already do peer to peer transactions. What banks provide is insurance so that you are not left holding the bag when things go wrong. That's a service that I willing pay for, and it's why I'll use Paypal or VISA when paying for something on the internet, rather than wiring Ether or Bitcoin to an anonymous wallet and hoping for the best.

How do you mean, hoping for the best? Money is transferred from one crypto wallet to another - simples.

Anthracite

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

Simple answer; there is zero profit for them if financial transactions are Peer to Peer.

We can already do peer to peer transactions. What banks provide is insurance so that you are not left holding the bag when things go wrong. That's a service that I willing pay for, and it's why I'll use Paypal or VISA when paying for something on the internet, rather than wiring Ether or Bitcoin to an anonymous wallet and hoping for the best.

Anthracite

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Fear. If FIAT loses market share / power, their business suffers. Banks have crypto currencies as a serious threat on their SWOT analysis's.

How??

Are people here confusing central, retail, commercial and investment banks?

makeorbrake

Anthracite wrote: »

I don't understand this logic: why would banks (other than possibly central banks) have any issue with cryptocurrencies?

The last two posters have covered it. Crypto could eat their lunch. It potentially could eat into some of their revenue streams. It will also upset their cosy status quo. I have not had to bother with wire transfers much up until recent months. Lets take them as an example - they're from the dark ages! But what incentive is there for the bankers to streamline this money transfer? They charged me for not accepting a perfectly good transfer - they didn't like it as it came via transfermate (anti competitive practice - and to top it off, I pay for the privilege of being declined a service). The terminology between countries differs and it's about as clear as mud as a system - it can be time consuming and it's expensive.

They're going to be forced to look at that. The europeans are already in the process of making SEPA transfers faster. Nothing like a bit of disruption.

grindle

Typical old-guard speaking about it - where have you been?

Tinder Surprise

Anthracite wrote: »

I don't understand this logic: why would banks (other than possibly central banks) have any issue with cryptocurrencies? They trade and invest in every commodity from toilet paper to diamonds - crypto would just be another avenue for making money to them. It seems like something someone in the Bitcoin community threw out as an argument years ago and everybody just swallowed it uncritically.

Simple answer; there is zero profit for them if financial transactions are Peer to Peer.

Fighting Tao

Anthracite wrote: »

I don't understand this logic: why would banks (other than possibly central banks) have any issue with cryptocurrencies? They trade and invest in every commodity from toilet paper to diamonds - crypto would just be another avenue for making money to them. It seems like something someone in the Bitcoin community threw out as an argument years ago and everybody just swallowed it uncritically.

Fear. If FIAT loses market share / power, their business suffers. Banks have crypto currencies as a serious threat on their SWOT analysis's.

Anthracite

makeorbrake wrote: »

Citing senior bankers!? Please - you know better than this. They despise crypto with a passion.

I don't understand this logic: why would banks (other than possibly central banks) have any issue with cryptocurrencies? They trade and invest in every commodity from toilet paper to diamonds - crypto would just be another avenue for making money to them. It seems like something someone in the Bitcoin community threw out as an argument years ago and everybody just swallowed it uncritically.

makeorbrake

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I'm not one of those troll yokes. I'm a skeptic about this entire cryptocurrency thing, and I'm entitled to put forward an opposing viewpoint without being called names. I've become extremely interested in this entire space, and have the benefit of not being emotionally involved bu owning any of these coins.

You're quite entitled to present the contrarian view - I welcome it - that's what discussion boards are all about. The manner in which you're doing so is deliberately aggravational. Other than that, I don't really understand why the interest in it if you don't for one minute believe that it brings anything to the party?

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Here's what I see as one of the main problems. Bitfinex is the largest exchange in the world, and was where most of the big buy orders went in during November and December. Now the lads who own Bitfinex also own this coin called Tether. Now this tether thing is meant to be backed one to one against the US dollar. Now we have to take their word for it, as they sacked their last auditors, and now appear to be 'printing' or 'magicing' hundreds of millions of unbacked Tethers at zero cost. These are then been transferred to Bitfinex who use this tether to buy bitcoin.

They then sell the bitcoins purchased using this magic monopoly money on another exchange for real dollars. This is the process where fake money is turned into real money and the circle is complete. Now it looks like people are starting to get a bit worried all this. If the price of bitcoin has been manipulated then what is its real value? If bitcoin collapses then all the shítcoins collapse too.

I agree completely that the Bitfinex/Tether situation needs to be fully outed - once and for all - and that it is a major concern. It was the item that tipped the balance for me in deciding to offload all my crypto a couple of weeks back.
However, unless you have new information, I don't see why there's a need to keep on repeating the same point over and over.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The same holds true for all of those ICOs ye are getting excited about. I create a coin by downloading the source from this github site. I create a website and propose that my coin is going to be used for something like replacing estate agents, or sharing media, or getting around censorship. Generate hype on twitter, make up some partnerships like buying a cloud service off Microsoft for an hour, and saying I'm now in partnership with them. I promise ye a bonus if you deposit ether into my wallet. I then create my own fantasy coin out of thin air. I keep your ether, transfer it off to an exchange, and cash it out for real money. Meanwhile I give you a heap of my magic coins, which you hope someone will buy off you for more than you paid for it in ether.

Once again, I don't think anyone will disagree that most ICO's are vapourware. However, don't tar all with the same brush. In the midst of all of them are serious projects that will amount to something significant. It's wrong to suggest otherwise.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The entire thing is a house of cards. It will only keep going as long as other people keep paying in at the bottom.

You say 'at the bottom' - at the end of the day, everyone makes an assessment of what represents value in terms of the price of a coin. Someone already gave you the example of tech stocks - which is no different.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The big lads at the top are manipulating the price

Proportionately, bitcoin and crypto's generally are still small in terms of overall net worth. Of course, the whales can and do manipulate the price. The futures guys are likely to be doing that too. Market manipulation is not exclusive to crypto - look at the likes of George Soros and his shenanigans in the past as regards manipulating currency.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

That's my reading of it. People who agree with me: Nobel prize winning economists, senior bankers, some of the shrewdest investors in the world. People who don't: vested interests and those with skin in the game.

No - can't agree with you here. It's quite the opposite. Many vested interests that want crypto smothered. Citing senior bankers!? Please - you know better than this. They despise crypto with a passion.

In a subsequent post, you referred to 'the house has an edge over you'. There is no 'house'. Bitcoin is a decentralised system.

Referring to crypto exchanges, you said 'they take your money'. They don't do jack other than to provide an exchange service. That's their function - it's a kin to a brokerage in the stocks world.

Shauny2010

It's a scam???? Nooooooooooooooooooo
W H A T A M A N G O N N A D O O!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61i2iDz7u04

Dr Bolouswki

Problem: No regulation of exchanges. Agreed.
Problem: No oversight or regulation of coins. Agreed.
Problem: Conversion of questionable equity into Bitcoin. Impossible to regulate. Could be converted into banana futures, does not negate the benefit or worth of bananas. Does not create any question around validity of Bitcoin.
Problem: Value of multiple coins tied to bitcoin. A result of trading pairs. See problem 1.
Problem: No regulation of ICO's. Agreed. Caveat Emptor. Don't confuse Tokens based on existing platforms with independent blockchain based projects.

You conflate coins with actual currency, I assume due to the nomenclature. Many of the "coins" are merely another form of "share" in a business - again a problem of regulation rather than of currency or technology.. The admittedly large amount of garbage coins is concerning - but is not reflective of either cryptocurrency or blockchain as a whole. An unregulated market that is open to manipulation, abuse and chicanary while potentially undermining the industry as a whole, is not a basis to dismiss the industry as a whole. If you imagine replacing "coins" with "Nasdaq stocks" in your argument, you see where it can break down. Nasdaq is tech companies only, many many of which turn no profit and merely capture market share. Their shares are sold to guys at the bottom with share issuance decided at the top, these shares cashed out for real money, magic pieces of paper, house of cards etc etc...

Anyway - I'm glad I provoked a response that actually makes some sense. If you dropped the emotive language, the leaps of logic and the projection of opinion as fact, perhaps you would not provoke such vitriolic response. But then again, perhaps that's what you want.

[Deleted User]

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

And those exchanges are the biggest scams of all - I genuinely believe they take your money, and pay out the whales at the top, who in many cases are probably themselves.

Most exchanges simply facilitate crypto investing by giving a platform for people to trade. Coinbase is probably the most popular, they don't take your money and give it to anyone except the person on the other end of the trade who you are buying currency from. They charge a fee for this if couse, just like a broker would if you buy shares (though brokers charge far more of couse and charge you just got having an account etc).

I won't say it's not gambling, but it's gambling in the same way buying shares or other investing is gambling not like gambling on horses. It's very funny hearing all these big bankers etc giving out about crypto investing when's it's so similar to their own business.

manu2009

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I don't want people to lose money, and I'm told that blockchain is a novel technology, if difficult to see a use case for at the moment. I'm 100% convinced this cryptocurrency craze at the moment is a scam though, and that loads of the little guys will be fleeced by the few dudes creaming it all off at the top of the pyramid. It's not investing, it's pure unadulterated gambling, where the house has an absolute enormous edge over you. And those exchanges are the biggest scams of all - I genuinely believe they take your money, and pay out the whales at the top, who in many cases are probably themselves. So that makes it a classic ponzi scheme. This whole charade might go on for another day, week, month or year. But it will come tumbling down. It's a speculative bubble built on scams and false promises. And the vast majority of people will lose in this game.

All your posts do is highlight some of the issues in the space at the moment but most of it is fud that you seem to be trying to find and spread. It's similar to a lot of media outlets that don't know anything about crypto. I agree there are a lot of scam icos and projects with little utility and there is the potential for people to lose money if they don't put in proper research before investing but it's the same as any other tech that can be used for good or bad.

You do realise that cryptocurrency's have been around since 2009 and plenty of people have shared your concerns and been proven wrong every single time?

For someone that knows little about the underlying technology or the space in general for the last 9 years your advice is the last I would take.

grindle

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I'm entitled to put forward an opposing viewpoint without being called names.

I haven't called you names but I have countered your arguments and you just sidestep or ignore. Either participate in debate or stop fooling yourself into thinking you're making any kind of point.
Your arguments have the substance of the scammiest coins.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Here's what I see as one of the main problems. Bitfinex ... Tether...

Massive issue, correct - well done. Most know it's an issue.
Do keep bleating about this anywhere you can for as long as you can until Bitfinex satisfy the taste we all have for a transparent audit.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The same holds true for all of those ICOs ye are getting excited about. I create a coin by downloading the source from this github site. I create a website and propose that my coin is going to be used for something like replacing estate agents, or sharing media, or getting around censorship. Generate hype on twitter, make up some partnerships like buying a cloud service off Microsoft for an hour, and saying I'm now in partnership with them. I promise ye a bonus if you deposit ether into my wallet. I then create my own fantasy coin out of thin air. I keep your ether, transfer it off to an exchange, and cash it out for real money. Meanwhile I give you a heap of my magic coins, which you hope someone will buy off you for more than you paid for it in ether.

Here's one of those areas where you're mostly correct but you let your inability to grasp token supply/demand/utility economics cloud your judgement and you paint every single ICO as some Confido-esque hit'n'run.
Most ICOs are total garbage and a huge amount of people will get burnt long-term, but your insistence that every single token is a house of cards/Ponzi is either wilful ignorance (which indicates malice) or honest ignorance (which indicates a lack of knowledge, so please read and you'll be better informed to warn people about all the actual scams or tokens with unfavourable terms).

JohnnyFlash

Anthracite wrote: »

Wanting it to fail and thinking it will fail are not the same thing.

I don't want people to lose money, and I'm told that blockchain is a novel technology, if difficult to see a use case for at the moment. I'm 100% convinced this cryptocurrency craze at the moment is a scam though, and that loads of the little guys will be fleeced by the few dudes creaming it all off at the top of the pyramid. It's not investing, it's pure unadulterated gambling, where the house has an absolute enormous edge over you. And those exchanges are the biggest scams of all - I genuinely believe they take your money, and pay out the whales at the top, who in many cases are probably themselves. So that makes it a classic ponzi scheme. This whole charade might go on for another day, week, month or year. But it will come tumbling down. It's a speculative bubble built on scams and false promises. And the vast majority of people will lose in this game.

lostboy75

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

People who agree with me: Nobel prize winning economists, senior bankers, some of the shrewdest investors in the world. People who don't: vested interests and those with skin in the game.

You forgot to add the the SEC and the CFTC, oh wait, no they don't agree with you.
'Senior bankers' don't believe in crypto, shocking that. 'Some of the shrewdest investors in the world' Some of, what do the remainder believe?
'Nobel prize winning economists' actually
economist, you linked to one. And I'll be honest I didn't watch that vid yet. But I will.
But great come back to the above criticism of you repeating the same old mantra, by replying and, well repeating your same old mantra...

[Deleted User]

Anthracite wrote: »

Wanting it to fail and thinking it will fail are not the same thing.

I think there is a lot of wanting rather than thinking going on

Anthracite

Chloe Tall Meal wrote: »

People who either really want it to fail or have an irrational hatred of cryptos, so people just like you. This is what's driving their opinion rather than any clue about the potential or not of cryptos as an investment or as a currency.

Wanting it to fail and thinking it will fail are not the same thing.

Dades

I have to say I don't disagree with most of that.

I'm in it for the fun, an interest in tech, and the hope that someone will pay more for my magic beans than I paid for them.

[Deleted User]

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

l

That's my reading of it. People who agree with me: Nobel prize winning economists, senior bankers, some of the shrewdest investors in the world. .

People who either really want it to fail or have an irrational hatred of cryptos, so people just like you. This is what's driving their opinion rather than any clue about the potential or not of cryptos as an investment or as a currency.

You are ranting and raving for the last week or two that people should sell and get out etc even if they are at a loss. What if someone took your advise last week and missed out on the good recovery over the last week? Also your constant talk about lambos is condescending and saying stuff like "people think they will make a million from a 1k investment just isn't how people are thinking. There is potential to make gains in crypto investing that is a fact, a lot more gains than you will make in the stock exchange or a savings account, yes there are risks but there are a lot more people who have been burned by shares than cryptos that's for sure.

I don't think anyone (certainly very few) are investing money they can't lose, especially due to the higher potential gains you can put in less.

JohnnyFlash

I'm not one of those troll yokes. I'm a skeptic about this entire cryptocurrency thing, and I'm entitled to put forward an opposing viewpoint without being called names. I've become extremely interested in this entire space, and have the benefit of not being emotionally involved bu owning any of these coins.

Here's what I see as one of the main problems. Bitfinex is the largest exchange in the world, and was where most of the big buy orders went in during November and December. Now the lads who own Bitfinex also own this coin called Tether. Now this tether thing is meant to be backed one to one against the US dollar. Now we have to take their word for it, as they sacked their last auditors, and now appear to be 'printing' or 'magicing' hundreds of millions of unbacked Tethers at zero cost. These are then been transferred to Bitfinex who use this tether to buy bitcoin.

They then sell the bitcoins purchased using this magic monopoly money on another exchange for real dollars. This is the process where fake money is turned into real money and the circle is complete. Now it looks like people are starting to get a bit worried all this. If the price of bitcoin has been manipulated then what is its real value? If bitcoin collapses then all the shítcoins collapse too.

The same holds true for all of those ICOs ye are getting excited about. I create a coin by downloading the source from this github site. I create a website and propose that my coin is going to be used for something like replacing estate agents, or sharing media, or getting around censorship. Generate hype on twitter, make up some partnerships like buying a cloud service off Microsoft for an hour, and saying I'm now in partnership with them. I promise ye a bonus if you deposit ether into my wallet. I then create my own fantasy coin out of thin air. I keep your ether, transfer it off to an exchange, and cash it out for real money. Meanwhile I give you a heap of my magic coins, which you hope someone will buy off you for more than you paid for it in ether.

The entire thing is a house of cards. It will only keep going as long as other people keep paying in at the bottom. The big lads at the top are manipulating the price, but cashing out into real money at all times. The whole thing is going to come crashing down once the small money from the mugs at the bottom stops hitting the exchanges. They are paying out the big lads in real cash from the real cash they take in. And themselves of course. The liquidity of those things must be dreadful.

That's my reading of it. People who agree with me: Nobel prize winning economists, senior bankers, some of the shrewdest investors in the world. People who don't: vested interests and those with skin in the game.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Dr Bolouswki wrote: »

Guy is just a troll. Hasn't a fúcking notion what he is talking about. Not a single fúcking notion. "But its not a TING! How can it have value if its not a ting?". Deliberate trolling, endlessly repeating the same garbage, contributing nothing. Seriously. Where's your self respect? You are the drunk at the end of the bar, endlessly jabbering on about the same shíte with no coherence to anything you say. Claiming to be "long in the tooth" but acting like a pre-teen endlessly seeking attention while saying nothing. You should be ashamed of yourself. Deliberately targetting a group of people to aggravate and nay-say their interest without a shred of understanding other than "it's not a ting"... seriously. Get a life.

To be fair I don't think his argument is predicated on the fact that cryptocurrencies are not a physical thing...

He's just pointing out the very obvious fact that they have almost no underlying value. The price is based solely on how much people think they can offload them for to someone else. Its a speculative bubble. Of course when the bubble crashes properly, all the high-flying day traders on this forum will say they knew the crash was coming all along. That they were just interested in the technology behind the currency and never planned on getting rich quick off selling the coins themselves. :rolleyes:

Dr Bolouswki

Guy is just a troll. Hasn't a fúcking notion what he is talking about. Not a single fúcking notion. "But its not a TING! How can it have value if its not a ting?". Deliberate trolling, endlessly repeating the same garbage, contributing nothing. Seriously. Where's your self respect? You are the drunk at the end of the bar, endlessly jabbering on about the same shíte with no coherence to anything you say. Claiming to be "long in the tooth" but acting like a pre-teen endlessly seeking attention while saying nothing. You should be ashamed of yourself. Deliberately targetting a group of people to aggravate and nay-say their interest without a shred of understanding other than "it's not a ting"... seriously. Get a life.

smacl

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Give me real money and I’ll give you some magic beans. Hope you can sell those magic beans to another lad for more that you paid for em....

Mostly green beans here today, sprouting nicely and looking forward to some sustained growth. Think I'll keep 'em awhile longer before bringing 'em to market

Bob24

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah good man Johnny, the forum is far too quiet tonight.

So what's the real story Johnny? I'm starting to suspect that you might be the biggest HODLER of us all here, trying to scare the weak hands into selling during these uncertain times.

Are you in fact Johnny the Whale?

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Johnny’s got you covered!

lifeandtimes wrote: »

1. Johnny got burned hard by this and/previous investments and is sour
2. Johnny missed the boat and wants to make everyone feel bad
3. Johnny is a fiat trader and is trying to FUD people in crypto to bring money back to them.

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Johnny wants to have his cake and eat it too.

It's a win win and Johnny sails off into the night

Usually personally going after a poster rather than discussing the topic and their posts doesn't make for a better thread, especially if it's done as a group and in a repetitive way :-/

Just saying ...

lostboy75

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

No offence pal, but I doubt the figures been talked about here would be enough to impact the price of the euro versus the dollar. No, just a random punter who is fascinated by this stuff. It’s such a scam, and I feel I’m bringing a different perspective than the usual congratulatory back slapping stuff that goes on here from lads who suddenly think they are Gordon gecko. Going on about day trading and readin whitepapers.. might be better time spent reading about how the entire thing is a scam designed to take money from lads in merica and Europe and hand it over to bucks from China and Korea. Them exchanges - pure scam. Give me real money and I’ll give you some magic beans. Hope you can sell those magic beans to another lad for more that you paid for em....

The point is your not bringing a different perspective, your repeating the same mantra over and over again and ignoring any counter argument. There are several anti-crypto posters here that have given me a lot to think about. And I will be thinking on them. Yours come across as pure nonsense.
I have never hit ignore on any poster before, as I think everyone's argument can be valid if they are open to debate. Even if I think they are 100% wrong, I would be stupid to cut them out as their opinion may influence my thought process, if it's well argued. Your not open to debate, your certain your 100% right and everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.
That is not bringing a well reasoned different perspective to a debate.

lifeandtimes

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

No offence pal, but I doubt the figures been talked about here would be enough to impact the price of the euro versus the dollar. No, just a random punter who is fascinated by this stuff. It’s such a scam, and I feel I’m bringing a different perspective than the usual congratulatory back slapping stuff that goes on here from lads who suddenly think they are Gordon gecko. Going on about day trading and readin whitepapers.. might be better time spent reading about how the entire thing is a scam designed to take money from lads in merica and Europe and hand it over to bucks from China and Korea. Them exchanges - pure scam. Give me real money and I’ll give you some magic beans. Hope you can sell those magic beans to another lad for more that you paid for em....

Fair enough. That's your perspective

Enjoy your weekend Johnny