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Another Sinn Fein blunder?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/gerry-kelly-removed-clamp-from-his-car-sinn-féin-confirms-1.3379431

Can this be true?

If it is, it would appear that it's another faux pas by SINN Fein following on the Kingsmill sliced pan incident.

A party who it was difficult to lay a glove on up to this seems to have 'pulled the ripcord' ?

First it's wee Barry and O'Muilleoir

Then auld Dessie

Now it appears that Jerry has cracked.

What's going on here.

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Jawgap

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Ooh a professional historian? Like Ruth Dudley Edwards? I'm sure if I was bored enough I could find other historians who'd refute the hindsight judgements of Mr Hanley.

His postulations towards the end of the piece are embarrassing - a professional historian painting alternative realities. Oh dear.

Aaah, the anti-intellectualism of shinners, it can always be relied on

The eschewing of experts goes a long way to explaining shinnernomics!

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Aaah, the anti-intellectualism of shinners, it can always be relied on

The eschewing of experts goes a long way to explaining shinnernomics!

Don't challenge me, I'm a historian. (explains a lot that post)

A few posts ago you were going on about insulating your children from the 'experts' who economically wrecked the country.

Flippity Flop. :rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, and I'm not disparaging him. Journos write from a particular perspective - their motives, while perfectly valid, are not the same as a professional historian.

But if you enjoy reading him, go right ahead and continue to do so.

O'Donoghue is as much an academic as Hanley. History is a subjective endeavour. 'Professional historians' are therefore governed by the limitations that apply to such pursuits as the rest of us. I'm sensing a wee whiff of academic snobbery off you here in your reticence to discuss this further.

cycle4fun

Deleted User wrote: »

O'Donoghue is as much an academic as Hanley. History is a subjective endeavour. 'Professional historians' are therefore governed by the limitations that apply to such pursuits as the rest of us. I'm sensing a wee whiff of academic snobbery off you here in your reticence to discuss this further.

Go right ahead and set up a different thread on historians if you want to go off on a tangent. This thread is about SF blunders, which seem to occur on a weekly basis, and which you cannot yet explain. 1 of of 17 for trying to explain or justify the past actions of your party political spokesperson on policing and justice.

FrancieBrady

cycle4fun wrote: »

Go right ahead and set up a different thread on historians if you want to go off on a tangent. This thread is about SF blunders, which seem to occur on a weekly basis, and which you cannot yet explain. 1 of of 17 for trying to explain or justify the past actions of your party political spokesperson on policing and justice.

How ye getting on finding those 'strict rules'?

One would almost think you were telling porkies again, would one

[Deleted User]

cycle4fun wrote: »

This thread is about SF blunders......

:rolleyes:.

How many staff do you employ to monitor all these blunders Cycle/mary?

Wheeliebin30

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How ye getting on finding those 'strict rules'?

One would almost think you were telling porkies again, would one

3 sites I worked on had rules about boltcutters.

Every time someone wanted to use it it had to be documented, dated, name of person and reason for use.

Also only certain people were permitted to do this documentation.

Thats my experience.

FrancieBrady

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

3 sites I worked on had rules about boltcutters.

Every time someone wanted to use it it had to be documented, dated, name of person and reason for use.

Also only certain people were permitted to do this documentation.

Thats my experience.

Yes, but a site is governed by all sorts of rules that other aren't.
I can walk into Woodies and buy any amount of boltcutters and there are no rules at all governing there use.
There are also many people who wouldn't have a notion what they are for.

Cycle's little jaunt to implicate the gym is over methinks

blanch152

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

3 sites I worked on had rules about boltcutters.

Every time someone wanted to use it it had to be documented, dated, name of person and reason for use.

Also only certain people were permitted to do this documentation.

Thats my experience.

You forget that Sinn Fein have been used to supporting a culture that maintains different rules to the rest of us when it comes to private citizens operating devices may be used as weapons.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You forget that Sinn Fein have been used to supporting a culture that maintains different rules to the rest of us when it comes to private citizens operating devices may be used as weapons.

Ah yes, who can forget The Screwdriver Rising of '52.

diomed

Francie
Are you employed by Fianna Fail, Fine Gael?
You are doing great work for them.

Jawgap

Deleted User wrote: »

O'Donoghue is as much an academic as Hanley. History is a subjective endeavour. 'Professional historians' are therefore governed by the limitations that apply to such pursuits as the rest of us. I'm sensing a wee whiff of academic snobbery off you here in your reticence to discuss this further.

Not at all - journos write to sell books and there's not many sales in writing about a person not many know about, and even fewer sales in writing about in a way that contradicts the view popularly held by the few who have heard of him.

And, yes, I am an academic snob - I've no problems with defining the area of expertise of someone and suggesting that their commentary is a bit more valuable than someone who draws their expertise from a different well - which is why I'm not really that interested in discussing an aspect of a period I've not really delved into. Others are better qualified than I, which is why I cited Hanley.

You chose to cite O'Donoghue - I've no issue with that, but it doesn't invalidate Hanley's assessment.

Perhaps you need to take the interpretation of Russell as a collaborator up with him.

McMurphy

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

3 sites I worked on had rules about boltcutters.

Every time someone wanted to use it it had to be documented, dated, name of person and reason for use.

Also only certain people were permitted to do this documentation.

Thats my experience.

Jeez - either (all 3) of these sites were completely over regulating/ over egging the pudding, or you may be getting confused.

I can walk into any hardware shop and pick up a pair with zero questions except "card or cash"?

https://jebbtools.ie/collections/bolt-cutters/products/36-orange-handle-bolt-cutter

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah yes, who can forget The Screwdriver Rising of '52.

It wasn't a joke, but I suppose you see the IRA and Sinn Fein as being funny.

The nail bombs used by the IRA are just one example of their cowardly attacks supported by Sinn Fein.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Park_and_Regent%27s_Park_bombings

The Hyde Park bomb was one example of how the IRA targetted civilians.

[Deleted User]

Jawgap wrote: »

You chose to cite O'Donoghue - I've no issue with that, but it doesn't invalidate Hanley's assessment.

Perhaps you need to take the interpretation of Russell as a collaborator up with him.

I cited O'Donoghue since the article contains an expanded version of what Lahousen thought about Russell. Don't forget Lahousen ended up being a witness for the prosecution at Nuremburg. Hanley's article talks of the IRA not being a homogenous stucture, with left leaning factions, rightwing factions and apolitical sections. Hanley puts Russell within this group. I'm happy for him to be accused of being naive re the Nazis, but I consider accusations of him to be a collaborator in the classic sense of the word to be inaccurate.

Brian Hanley in this podcast speaks of the widespread ambivalence within Irish society to German victories in 1940, because of the anti-British feeling still evident within Ireland since the WoI happened less than 20 yrs previously. I think its fair to say Russell was part of this contituency. He was following the classic Republican line of 'England's difficulty' IMO.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It wasn't a joke, but I suppose you see the IRA and Sinn Fein as being funny.

The nail bombs used by the IRA are just one example of their cowardly attacks supported by Sinn Fein.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Park_and_Regent%27s_Park_bombings

The Hyde Park bomb was one example of how the IRA targetted civilians.

Were they more or less cowardly than the actions of any army, bombing from 10,000 feet and toddling home to die in bed, so to speak.

They are all horrible acts from a victim point of view Blanch.

What was funny was your continual hypocrisy in these matters

diomed

Divert, what about?.
Repeat.

Bridge93

Worked in a gym in Canada for a summer when I was in college. Had a set of bolt cutters for the locks. If needed the staff would go and cut the lock, the customers were not allowed to use them themselves. Was health & safety and legal reasons behind it.

Couldn't tell you if that was a specific gym policy or one that you would expect to find in all gyms

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Were they more or less cowardly than the actions of any army, bombing from 10,000 feet and toddling home to die in bed, so to speak.

They are all horrible acts from a victim point of view Blanch.

What was funny was your continual hypocrisy in these matters

Always the whataboutery.

Just can't accept something is wrong without pointing the finger at someone else or dragging another incident into it.

Boom_Bap

This thread has become torture to read because of all the jabs been taken at each other.
Get it back on topic please.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Always the whataboutery.

Just can't accept something is wrong without pointing the finger at someone else or dragging another incident into it.

I long ago accepted and said it was all wrong. But it ALL happened.

Jawgap

Deleted User wrote: »

I cited O'Donoghue since the article contains an expanded version of what Lahousen thought about Russell. Don't forget Lahousen ended up being a witness for the prosecution at Nuremburg. Hanley's article talks of the IRA not being a homogenous stucture, with left leaning factions, rightwing factions and apolitical sections. Hanley puts Russell within this group. I'm happy for him to be accused of being naive re the Nazis, but I consider accusations of him to be a collaborator in the classic sense of the word to be inaccurate.

Brian Hanley in this podcast speaks of the widespread ambivalence within Irish society to German victories in 1940, because of the anti-British feeling still evident within Ireland since the WoI happened less than 20 yrs previously. I think its fair to say Russell was part of this contituency. He was following the classic Republican line of 'England's difficulty' IMO.

That's as maybe but has he reversed his assessment of Russell as a collaborator?

[Deleted User]

Jawgap wrote: »

That's as maybe but has he reversed his assessment of Russell as a collaborator?

Hanley is assessing Russell through the lens of hindsight bias in that article. The latter half of his article is pure speculation IMO. He says at one point re a German invasion of Ireland:

No doubt a section of the IRA would have realised their mistake and resisted.

Russell with his apolitical stance could have been one of these.

FrancieBrady

Bridge93 wrote: »

Worked in a gym in Canada for a summer when I was in college. Had a set of bolt cutters for the locks. If needed the staff would go and cut the lock, the customers were not allowed to use them themselves. Was health & safety and legal reasons behind it.

Couldn't tell you if that was a specific gym policy or one that you would expect to find in all gyms

Well that kinda stands to reason. That customers would not be allowed to start cutting locks. Jeez!

Somebody wants a lend of them for a minute because they are in bother outside?
Individual discretion I would say and the value of the customer.

cycle4fun

I wonder has anyone else EVER borrowed a pair of industrial boltcutters from a gym in order to break open a car clamp, on a car parked on yellow lines near the side of a road, WITHOUT the gym knowing or asking what the boltcutters were for, as was claimed?

FrancieBrady

cycle4fun wrote: »

I wonder has anyone else EVER borrowed a pair of industrial boltcutters from a gym in order to break open a car clamp, on a car parked on yellow lines near the side of a road, WITHOUT the gym knowing or asking what the boltcutters were for, as was claimed?

What exactly is it you are trying to prove here.

You have changed the tangent again. Now it is, 'did the gym know'.
Why does that matter?

McMurphy

cycle4fun wrote: »

I wonder has anyone else EVER borrowed a pair of industrial boltcutters from a gym in order to break open a car clamp, on a car parked on yellow lines near the side of a road, WITHOUT the gym knowing or asking what the boltcutters were for, as was claimed?

I'd say it's as widespread as the stringent rules and paperwork that goes hand in hand with operating such a dangerous bit of apparatus.

Perhaps you could put yourself out of your eternal misery/curiosity and email the gym in question and copy and paste their reply on here for the rest of us. :rolleyes:

Or else stop asking pedantic repetitive questions no one on here could possibly answer unless they work in the gym in question.

Here - I'll even do you the courtesy of providing their email address

info-befast@puregym.com

Come back and let us know how you get on.

cycle4fun

Bridge93 wrote: »

Worked in a gym in Canada for a summer when I was in college. Had a set of bolt cutters for the locks. If needed the staff would go and cut the lock, the customers were not allowed to use them themselves. Was health & safety and legal reasons behind it.

That makes perfect sense. Gyms here are not known to let customers use boltcutters either, for the same reasons.

McMurphy

cycle4fun wrote: »

That makes perfect sense. Gyms here are not known to let customers use boltcutters either, for the same reasons.

Except maybe the one in Belfast?

Did you ask yet?

The goalposts shifted yet again I see?

FrancieBrady

cycle4fun wrote: »

That makes perfect sense. Gyms here are not known to let customers use boltcutters either, for the same reasons.

How do you know this?

And NO gyms will not give you boltcutters to start cutting locker locks on your own, in the same way banks won't give you the key to the safe to let you take out your own money. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: