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Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

marno21

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-2040-strategy-will-kill-rural-ireland-according-to-coalition-825724.html

Deja vu anyone?

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Macy0161

ED E wrote: »

If we could do ONE thing nationally to start fixing our dogs dinner of a dwelling pattern this would be it.

If the villages have the infrastructure to develop. Plenty of land being held by developers in my local village (which I do live within a km off), but none of them are prepared to pay for the wastewater system upgrade, which is already at capacity, that will allow them to be built. Also plenty of farmers, still actively and successfully, farming within that type of boundary.

The other thing that is also ignored is, that within the Dublin commuter belt, locals in villages are priced out by people moving out of the city into new urban estates. Whilst the detached house on an acre is obviously an attraction for many (most?), in most of Wicklow, Kildare, Meath, North County Dublin, Louth it's the only option for people to stay in the communities they grew up in. Further planning restrictions and forced urbanisation, is potentially just going to force them further out away from home and work - just pushing the problem further down the road than really solving population density issues.

I would also feel that the issue is really skewed into recent decades not because of the population really suddenly desiring one off housing, but that rural emigration was so high for many decades proceeding it. Growing up, I my homeplace village (in which the family lived) and the county town had plenty of vacant and derelict properties. It may be more in focus with a supposed "housing crisis", but is it really new?

markodaly

bk wrote: »

Cork, Limerick, etc. will never attract top tier employers like Google, Facebook, etc. (Apple aside for historical reasons in Cork). However they can attract the smaller second tier companies, the Ubers, Payapls, etc.

.

Yes and No. Dublin has many of the new tech companies, the Googles and Facebook. It seems for IT startups and the like Dublin is the place to be for the majority of them

Along with Apple you have EMC, VMware, Dell in Cork, and they have a massive foot print down there. Facebook is employing people in Cork now.

Also, you are forgetting about pharma. Cork is the capital of Irish pharma.
It is not as black and white as you make it out.

Del.Monte

Idbatterim wrote: »

heres a bloody plan! Why not aim higher, rather than the typical Irish "vision" why not allow affordable housing, spend more on infrastructure and lower marginal tax rates and attract our friends and family back home, attract new migrants who can contribute here!!!

Build a proper docklands in cork, make it a city of some scale and continue growing Dublin, electrify the route between the two and put in decent speed rail...

Why not just buy some more buses?

511

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

There you have it lads, build an ugly bungalow in the backarse of nowhere and suddenly the River Shannon becomes your property.

The Shannon isn't your water, what makes you think otherwise? The Shannon flows through Limerick City, so wouldn't urban Ireland have a claim over it too, by your logic?

John_Rambo

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

"not a drop of our water will they get up there in Dublin"

Said defiant midlands flood victim.

roadmaster

lalababa wrote: »

The old people with the 15 suckler/100 ewes/ 35 acres will die and the land will be joined into ever increasing bigger farms, with less and less labour per output. Milking robots coming in and yes robot grain,silage and veg/other crops/ wood harvesting in the future. That's the trend and that's what'll happen. And I don't see much wrong with it. Tis only change.

You don't have to wait that long for that I remember seen on ear to the ground last year a fully auto tractor that ploughed a field with no human imput apart from starting the program

Reati

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What's in it for Sneem?. Sneem really could use an International Airport.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

They have an airport in Kerry. They need a motorway to the airport and a high speed rail link BUT they cannot interfere with the local environment in any way.

lalababa

Idbatterim wrote: »

very good point about college, with regards to agriculture, over the next few years, I am assuming, automated machines etc will do the harvesting and will replace even more agricultural related jobs?

The small farmers are dying out, those farms will be amalgamated into bigger and bigger farms being worked by less and less people through economies and mechanics and robotics. Food will continue to become cheaper relative to wages. That's the trend and that's what will happen.
When I was a lad, there were alot of poor ish ground 20+ ish acre farms around me with a handful of suckler and a few sheep etc with the man of the house having a bit of low paid work here and there. These farms raised 10 kids plus , and saw those parents out. Now people need 80 acres plus depending on ground, maybe 2 decent off farm jobs , to raise 3 kids. That's the way tis going.

lalababa

Idbatterim wrote: »

very good point about college, with regards to agriculture, over the next few years, I am assuming, automated machines etc will do the harvesting and will replace even more agricultural related jobs?

The old people with the 15 suckler/100 ewes/ 35 acres will die and the land will be joined into ever increasing bigger farms, with less and less labour per output. Milking robots coming in and yes robot grain,silage and veg/other crops/ wood harvesting in the future. That's the trend and that's what'll happen. And I don't see much wrong with it. Tis only change.

lalababa

Idbatterim wrote: »

very good point about college, with regards to agriculture, over the next few years, I am assuming, automated machines etc will do the harvesting and will replace even more agricultural related jobs?

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

Build a proper docklands in cork, make it a city of some scale and continue growing Dublin, electrify the route between the two and put in decent speed rail...

What's in it for Sneem?. Sneem really could use an International Airport.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Idbatterim

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It is indeed but it suggested North of Balbriggan would be suitable

yes the deep water port at bremore... I can see this proposal being floated again, when this was originally suggested, there were still vast amount of land in the docklands, that wont be the case for much longer...

Idbatterim

heres a bloody plan! Why not aim higher, rather than the typical Irish "vision" why not allow affordable housing, spend more on infrastructure and lower marginal tax rates and attract our friends and family back home, attract new migrants who can contribute here!!!

Build a proper docklands in cork, make it a city of some scale and continue growing Dublin, electrify the route between the two and put in decent speed rail...

LeinsterDub

nuac wrote: »

That article is behind a paywall. It seems to refer a 20O8 Proposal for an alternative port to Dublin. AFAIK nothing further on that since.

It is indeed but it suggested North of Balbriggan would be suitable

Idbatterim

lalababa wrote: »

People - ye can argue the ins and outs till the cows come home, and feck all will happen. The trend will continue, rural communities and villages especially not on the tourist trail will lose population to the regional towns and cities. A massive upswing in college attendance from these areas in last 5 decades. That is the begin ing- the young people are already gone at that stage . They are drawn in by the bright lights and the jobs with the dream of the mandatory 'quality of life ' wage.

question is how best to provide decent public services to those who remain?
Concentrating services in villages and small towns seems logical. With the countryside going a bit outbacky /wild west. Would you rather no to little services in your house in a field and little services in the village, or none in your house but great stuff in the village.

very good point about college, with regards to agriculture, over the next few years, I am assuming, automated machines etc will do the harvesting and will replace even more agricultural related jobs?

nuac

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/moving-dublin-port-to-free-up-650-acres-for-development-1.902559

That article is behind a paywall. It seems to refer a 20O8 Proposal for an alternative port to Dublin. AFAIK nothing further on that since.

LeinsterDub

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

We'll pay you for it if you pay for everything else you use, fair?

Idbatterim

Del.Monte wrote: »

Agree with you completely about the likes of the industrial wasteland at Broombridge but Dublin Port is mad stuff. I have asked the same question in other threads over the years and nobody will touch it - how will global warming affect the port and those buildings already there? Answers please.

if they were to redevelop the port house housing, commercial and leisure, they can easily bring up the height of the land or put in higher walls when building it...

the dublin port land must be worth a fortune... and give it another 2/3 years, when all of the docklands is built out. they have allowed higher density and revised the apartment guidelines which they are currently doing...

pilly

There's more chips in here than there is in McDonalds!!!

Shurimgreat

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah the shannon pipeline but you are well aware of that I would think

Subsidising Dublin region with our water :rolleyes:

zetalambda

CHealy wrote: »

This is far from the truth, Cork has top tier employers all over the city and county, both Pharmaceutical (Phizers, Johnson Johnson, GSK etc) and tech (Apple, Amazon, Facebook, VMware, Dell EMC, etc). Im not sure about Limerick but Cork as a region can more than hold its own without Dublin.

33,000 employed by FDI firms in Cork

Voxpro probably deserve a mention too as they're top tier in their industry and employ a couple of thousand in Cork alone.

CHealy

bk wrote: »

Cork, Limerick, etc. will never attract top tier employers like Google, Facebook, etc. (Apple aside for historical reasons in Cork). However they can attract the smaller second tier companies, the Ubers, Payapls, etc.

This is far from the truth, Cork has top tier employers all over the city and county, both Pharmaceutical (Phizers, Johnson Johnson, GSK etc) and tech (Apple, Amazon, Facebook, VMware, Dell EMC, etc). Im not sure about Limerick but Cork as a region can more than hold its own without Dublin.

nuac

BoatMad wrote: »

Services like these were always provided at a cost , all these things cost money , postal service grew because they were needed

Today they are not needed as there is a plethora of options

I live 150km from my actual Bank Branch where my account is held , its irrelevant

Garda stations are a throwback to a different era, whats actually needed is a mobile force, not ones sitting behind a desk . Criminals dont cycle around on bikes robbing farms

The debate over post offices and Garda stations and physical banks is entirely misplaced and largely a generational thing, it will be meaningless to our children , rathe like closed rural railway stations are today

Deputy Shane Ross is hardly a rural TD, but has made a major issue of re-opening Stepaside Garda Station. Persists even tho' AGS say it is not a priority for them.

LeinsterDub

nuac wrote: »

Where on the East coast is there potential for a similar port with the same access to road and rail.

I see that major improvements are currently under way at Dublin - no indication of this traffic going elsewhere

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/moving-dublin-port-to-free-up-650-acres-for-development-1.902559

LeinsterDub

Del.Monte wrote: »

Any plans to build some new reservoirs to cater for the projected population increase in Dublin as the existing ones are struggling to keep pace with the current demand?

Yeah the shannon pipeline but you are well aware of that I would think

nuac

bk wrote: »

Plenty of cities have moved their port out of the city center and developed the land as housing. It is pretty standard.

Dublin Port really isn't that economically important, really it just serves Dublin and the surrounding region. It certainly is no Rotterdam or Antwerp.

I know firms in the West using Dublin

Dublin Port is also improving berthage to cater for cruise liners. These prefer to berth near major shopping areas

lalababa

People - ye can argue the ins and outs till the cows come home, and feck all will happen. The trend will continue, rural communities and villages especially not on the tourist trail will lose population to the regional towns and cities. A massive upswing in college attendance from these areas in last 5 decades. That is the begin ing- the young people are already gone at that stage . They are drawn in by the bright lights and the jobs with the dream of the mandatory 'quality of life ' wage.

question is how best to provide decent public services to those who remain?
Concentrating services in villages and small towns seems logical. With the countryside going a bit outbacky /wild west. Would you rather no to little services in your house in a field and little services in the village, or none in your house but great stuff in the village.

nuac

bk wrote: »

Dublin has plenty of space to massively densify. Move Dublin Port and you have massive amounts of available space.

Look at Broombridge Industrial Estate, what a waste, hundreds of acres of underused industrial warehouses, inside the M50 and right next to both the new Luas line and commuter rail line! You could houses literally, tens of thousands of people there.

40,000 new homes planned for Swords once Metro North is built.

Tens of thousands of new apartments in south Dublin once the Green Luas line is built.

I could go on all day....

While Amsterdam is a great comparison for Dublin, Netherlands is a very poor one.

Netherlands is 17 million people living in an area half the side of Ireland! The entire country has massive population density. Also it isn't an island and is highly connected with it's neighbours.

BTW of course no one is saying it should just be Dublin. We are saying develop all urban areas, which in Ireland is any town/village with a population of 1,500 or more.

Where on the East coast is there potential for a similar port with the same access to road and rail.

I see that major improvements are currently under way at Dublin - no indication of this traffic going elsewhere

Del.Monte

Any plans to build some new reservoirs to cater for the projected population increase in Dublin as the existing ones are struggling to keep pace with the current demand?

Shurimgreat

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Shurimgreat why are you determined to make this a Dublin vs the countryside thing? Can you not see that your apparent entrenched resentment of Dublin does not benefit anyone? Dublin is your capital, it is all of our capitals, and only international city of any scale. It is in your direct interest that the capital prosper and this in no way needs to be at the expense of rural Ireland.

All I am saying is we need balanced regional development. Its not rocket science. The M50, Luas, Dart, bus and car infrastructure in Dublin is creaking at the seams not to mention the shortage of housing which is being addressed very slowly.

Its not actually me that is trying to make it a Dublin vs countryside thing. Its others who started complaining about subsidising the countryside, one off houses, rural broadband, etc. I just replied to them.