Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

manu2009 wrote: »

So much FUD in this thread it's become a joke.

Welcome all the new people who came out of the closet because of the crash and feel bad because they've missed out on embracing a new technology that's going to change the world and already is.

Were already moving to a cashless society, it offers a way out from the traditional financial system full of corrupt bankers and governments, it allows everyone to be treated equally, send money within minutes worldwide and to be in full control of their personal finances.

Blockchain tech is here to stay, more and more innovation is happening for example the Substratum project who have developed software that's going to decentralize the web for users in countries such as China.

If Bitcoin was a Ponzi scheme why would so many large scale successful businesses take risk and accept it as payment e.g scan.co.uk for pc parts, cheapair.com for flights, expedia.com for hotels etc.?

Not to mention the fact ebay has removed pay pal as it's main payment option and the rumours they'll allow bitcoin as a method of payment

Shauny2010

kaymin wrote: »

The US economy backs up the USD.

lifeandtimes wrote: »

The world crypto market backs up the crypto which is slowly bring used as legal tender around the world.

The comparison people keep making to the stock market is not valid as you can't buy goods and services with shares of a company

Bitcoin is backed by Cryptography and Proof Of Work. It costs money to mine Bitcoin, the Cryptography behind it is so strong that it would take every computer on the planet running for thousands of years to break one private key.
The Bitcoin network is the most powerful network there is, it is decentralized, hack proof, attack proof.
Yes you may not be able to do everyday transactions with it (yet) but it does act as a settlement currency for all other Alt-coins. Some of these Alt-coins can do instant transactions, others do things like gaming markets, Internet of things and trust-less contracts on the network.
To think that these have no intrinsic value is madness.
To think that Bitcoin will not test all time highs again is also madness

dubrov

kaymin wrote: »

The US economy backs up the USD.

By economy you mean those who accept USD in exchange for goods and services. Yes it now has big stable support unlike bitcoin but it wasn't always that way

grindle

kaymin wrote: »

What I'm trying to establish is whether COSS generates value outside of investment transactions in the currency itself. I can see from coss.io that they provide a point of sale / payment gateway with P2P remittance and KYC services to follow. So these are the services that generate value. Does this support a $33m valuation though? What traction have they achieved in the marketplace?

Not enough to achieve that valuation, certainly. If they were a trad company they'd likely be valued $15m to $20m based on current dividends, but I can see them going higher in future so I hold my tokens which I hope will create more value (or, they already have) than I've invested in them.

Again though, you're fixated on a crypto as a dividend sharing business - why?

manu2009 wrote: »

So much FUD in this thread it's become a joke.

Welcome all the new people who came out of the closet because of the crash and feel bad because they've missed out on embracing a new technology that's going to change the world and already is.

Were already moving to a cashless society, it offers a way out from the traditional financial system full of corrupt bankers and governments, it allows everyone to be treated equally, send money within minutes worldwide and to be in full control of their personal finances.

Blockchain tech is here to stay, more and more innovation is happening for example the Substratum project who have developed software that's going to decentralize the web for users in countries such as China.

If Bitcoin was a Ponzi scheme why would so many large scale successful businesses take risk and accept it as payment e.g scan.co.uk for pc parts, cheapair.com and expedia.com for flights and hotels etc.?

How will we be in control of our finances if its worth $20K one week and $5K a month later.

kaymin

dubrov wrote: »

By economy you mean those who accept USD in exchange for goods and services. Yes it now has big stable support unlike bitcoin but it wasn't always that way

No, I mean all the businesses, people, IP etc that is in the US or subject to US taxation and which the US government can draw from by the way of taxes

jasper100 wrote: »

How will we be in control of our finances if its worth $20K one week and $5K a month later.

Your looking at it wrong if your asking that question.

If you believe in the technology and see how much more it has to offer than the traditional banking system then the above is irrelevant, as the saying goes only invest what you can afford to lose, there's always going to be risk associated with being an early adopter in new tech.

kaymin

grindle wrote: »

Not enough to achieve that valuation, certainly. If they were a trad company they'd likely be valued $15m to $20m based on current dividends, but I can see them going higher in future so I hold my tokens which I hope will create more value (or, they already have) than I've invested in them.

Again though, you're fixated on a crypto as a dividend sharing business - why?

Because what is the point of holding a crypto if it doesn't confer anything to you. Holding a USD allows me to buy a good or service produced / provided by a US company. Holding COSS presumably allows you to buy one of the COSS services. If COSS doesn't provide a valuable / useful service then how can you realise value from your COSS unit?

If you are relying on someone else to buy your COSS from you for no reason other than their speculation then we're back to a ponzi scheme.

Shauny2010 wrote: »

To think that Bitcoin will not test all time highs again is also madness

How is it madness to think that it might be superseded by some other tech. and be all forgotten about in a few years?

manu2009 wrote: »

Your looking at it wrong if your asking that question.

If you believe in the technology and see how much more it has to offer than the traditional banking system then the above is irrelevant, as the saying goes only invest what you can afford to lose, there's always going to be risk associated with being an early adopter in new tech.

Take an effort to read what I was replying to please, I highlighted it in bold. "it allows everyone to be treated equally, send money within minutes worldwide and to be in full control of their personal finances"

I can't see how something that can go from $20K to $5K in a month is going to allow every person on the planet to be treated equally and in full control of their personal finances.

lifeandtimes wrote:

Any fluctuations will be minimilised once it's adopted properly around the world and regulated. Just like fiat and in another sense the stock market

So in the meantime its value is based on speculation alone.

grindle

kaymin wrote: »

Because what is the point of holding a crypto if it doesn't confer anything to you. Holding a USD allows me to buy a good or service produced / provided by a US company. Holding COSS presumably allows you to buy one of the COSS services. If COSS doesn't provide a valuable / useful service then how can you realise value from your COSS unit?

If you are relying on someone else to buy your COSS from you for no reason other than their speculation then we're back to a ponzi scheme.

Somebody buying a utility token from an early buyer in order to utilise a service at the price they think is fair is not much different from being the guy on the standard stock exchanges who sold his Amazon shares for a 10x ROI (back when they weren't a profitable business) to a guy who still has those shares. If a utility token pays off in the end and gets utilised, it's equilibrium price will have been found and people won't speculate as much, they'll just buy the token as it's economy needs it.

I'm not relying on somebody else buying my COSS from me - if it starts trading in Binance-type volumes I wouldn't want to.

dubrov wrote:

By economy you mean those who accept USD in exchange for goods and services. Yes it now has big stable support unlike bitcoin but it wasn't always that way

But when it wasn't that way its value was 100 percent backed up by gold. Bitcoin now in its early days & its backed up by nothing. It actually has no real value

Drumorig

Well that was interesting, I was getting a bit worried about the butcher comments earlier :eek:

alts are flying up again now, happy days

brendan, if you had of bought at the start of the thread and done a HODL you'd be rich now :pac:

lostboy75

What about pricing in it's future validation then.

jasper100 wrote: »

Take an effort to read what I was replying to please, I highlighted it in bold. "it allows everyone to be treated equally, send money within minutes worldwide and to be in full control of their personal finances"

I can't see how something that can go from $20K to $5K in a month is going to allow every person on the planet to be treated equally and in full control of their personal finances.

I did read it and answered your question. It's fairly simple to understand, there is no 3rd party in control of your money, you are.

By treated equally I also mean for example in developing countries where there are no financial services available to the people there.

Here is an example of an article on the topic: https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@nfeghali-2/for-developing-nations-cryptocurrency-is-most-valuable-as-a-safe-haven

Shauny2010

jasper100 wrote: »

How is it madness to think that it might be superseded by some other tech. and be all forgotten about in a few years?

Its not,
What I said was its madness to think Bitcoin will not test the all time highs again. When after all the talk of Alt-coins it's Bitcoin that's driving the market. When Bitcoin falls all the Alts crash,
When Bitcoin rises as its doing today, it drags all other crypto's up with it. At the moment the dominance of Bitcoin is under-rated, if you go by Coinmarketcaps valuations it gives a completely skewed valuation against Bitcoins dominance of the market

Bob24

manu2009 wrote: »

I did read it and answered your question. It's fairly simple to understand, there is no 3rd party in control of your money, you are.

I don't want to get into the rest of the discussion, but on this point I can't help jumping in. No matter how you put it, it seems like a strange argument to say that something as volatile as bitcoin allows people to be "in full control of their personal finances". To feel in control people need to be able to plan at least to some extend and have some level confidence about the future value of their accumulated wealth.

manu2009 wrote: »

I did read it and answered your question. It's fairly simple to understand, there is no 3rd party in control of your money, you are.

By treated equally I also mean for example in developing countries where there are no financial services available to the people there.

Here is an example of an article on the topic: https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@nfeghali-2/for-developing-nations-cryptocurrency-is-most-valuable-as-a-safe-haven

Can you explain how I am in control of my money if I have say $20K one month and $5K the next.

I happy enough with the way my money is controlled at the money. I have zero issues with it TBH.

Bob24 wrote: »

I don't want to get into the rest of the discussion, but on this point I can't help jumping in. No matter how you put it, it seems like a strange argument to say that something as volatile as bitcoin allows people to be "in full control of their personal finances". To feel in control people need to be able to plan at least to some extend and have some level confidence about the future value of their accumulated wealth.

I don't get this either. Imagine deciding in December you can afford to buy a new car and then come January you only have enough bitcoin to buy something 8 years old.

Bob24 wrote: »

I don't want to get into the rest of the discussion, but on this point I can't help jumping in. No matter how you put it, it seems like a strange argument to say that something as volatile as bitcoin allows people to be "in full control of their personal finances". To feel in control people need to be able to plan at least to some extend and have some level confidence about the future value of their accumulated wealth.

People in developing nations don't have other options when they have no financial services and there national currency becomes worthless.

I get your point but again your fixated on the price when it's the technology and what it can do on a global scale that's the important part.

jasper100 wrote: »

Can you explain how I am in control of my money if I have say $20K one month and $5K the next.

I happy enough with the way my money is controlled at the money. I have zero issues with it TBH.

Look at it this way.

When the first dollar was released you could trade them for a deer skin (where the name buck comes from)

During this time depending where you went one dollar could have got you 1 skin or 10 skins etc.

It's early days for the crypto market but once it's adopted (and it will be based on the ease, control and speed of it) the cost will level out and will be similar to the stock market and currency prices in they wont fluctuate too much.

At the moment yes it can go up and down by 75% but it's volatile at the moment because of the amount of people who dont know what they are doing jumping in and out.

Kinda like when the euro came in and no one knew how much it was worth and were trying to buy a 1 euro bottle of coke with a 10 euro note

drunkmonkey

jasper100 wrote: »

I don't get this either. Imagine deciding in December you can afford to buy a new car and then come January you only have enough bitcoin to buy something 8 years old.

jasper100 wrote: »

Can you explain how I am in control of my money if I have say $20K one month and $5K the next.

I happy enough with the way my money is controlled at the money. I have zero issues with it TBH.

jasper100 wrote: »

I don't get this either. Imagine deciding in December you can afford to buy a new car and then come January you only have enough bitcoin to buy something 8 years old.

If you are happy enough with the current centralized system then that's fair enough, cryptocurrency is not for you but it doesn't mean everyone else has to go along with it and use banks.

As I said already any new tech is going to be volatile initially and if you have that much invested and need a car you shouldn't put that money at risk.

manu2009 wrote: »

People in developing nations don't have other options when they have no financial services and there national currency becomes worthless.

I get your point but again your fixated on the price when it's the technology and what it can do on a global scale that's the important part.

People in developing countries can, and do, buy dollars.

Bob24

manu2009 wrote: »

People in developing nations don't have other options when they have no financial services and there national currency becomes worthless.

I get your point but again your fixated on the price when it's the technology and what it can do on a global scale that's the important part.

I do see an interest in the technology, but I think what you are overlooking is that because there is no clearly defined institutional backer for a currency doesn't mean you (the currency holder) are more in control.

This is because you (as an individual) have no control over that decentralised currency (arguably even less than on a national currency which can to some extend be influenced by a government you take part in electing). This could simply be natural market forces or some large private interest groups which are able to influence the market for that decentralised currency to suit their interest, but there is nothing to guarantee the currency will put you (as an individual) in control of your finances. For exemple and in a pessimistic scenario, you could well see your savings wiped just before buying a home due to a massive loss of value of the decentralised currency and completely lose control over your finances (while others who expected the drop or even plotted to trigger it though strong financial or media influencing firepower would have stored their wealth in other ways you might no have access to before it happens and can then come back and wipe the floor with what's left of you and all those who thought their were in control). So no matter how good the technology is, it is not futile to also look at potential consequences of the philosophy behind it and in this case the ability or not to maintain some level of price stability.

lifeandtimes wrote:

When the first dollar was released you could trade them for a deer skin (where the name buck comes from)

lifeandtimes wrote:

During this time depending where you went one dollar could have got you 1 skin or 10 skins etc.

During this time the dollar was backed up by gold. Directly linked. In other words your dollar was worth a dollar from day one. The fact that you could buy a deer skin for a dollar was backed up by gold reserves. Bitcoin is backed up by nothing. Its real value is nothing. Everything else is speculation

Sleeper12 wrote: »

During this time the dollar was backed up by gold. Directly linked. In other words your dollar was worth a dollar from day one. The fact that you could buy a deer skin for a dollar was backed up by gold reserves. Bitcoin is backed up by nothing. Its real value is nothing. Everything else is speculation

The history of the US Dollar

The currency of the United States can be traced back to 1690 before the birth of the country when the region was still a patchwork of colonies. The Massachusetts Bay Colony used paper notes to finance military expeditions. After the introduction of paper currency in Massachusetts, the other colonies quickly followed.

Various British imposed restrictions on the colonial paper currencies were in place until being outlawed. In 1775, when the colonists were preparing to go to war with the British, the Continental Congress introduced the Continental currency. However, the currency did not last long as there was insufficient financial backing and the notes were easily counterfeited.

Congress then chartered the first national bank in Philadelphia - the Bank of North America - to help with the government's finances. The dollar was chosen to become the monetary unit for the USA in 1785. The Coinage Act of 1792 helped put together an organised monetary system that introduced coinage in gold, silver, and copper. Paper notes or greenbacks were introduced into the system in 1861 to help finance the Civil War. The paper notes used several different techniques including a Treasury seal and engraved signatures to help diminish counterfeiting. In 1863, Congress put together the national banking system that granted the US Treasury permission to oversee the issuance of National Bank notes. This gave national banks the power to distribute money and to purchase US bonds more easily whilst still being regulated.

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 created one central bank and organised a national banking system that could keep up with the changing financial needs of the country. The Federal Reserve Board created a new currency called the Federal Reserve Note. The first federal note was issued in the form of a ten dollar bill in 1914. Finally, a decision by the Federal Reserve board was made to lower the manufacturing costs of the currency by reducing the actual size of the notes by 30%. The same designs were also printed on all dominations instead of individual designs.

The designs of the notes would not be changed again until 1996 when a series of improvements were carried out over a ten-year period to prevent counterfeiting.

https://www.advfn.com/currencies/usd/about/USDollar.html

They weren't backed by gold back then, there was no gold reserve

lifeandtimes wrote:

The history of the US Dollar

lifeandtimes wrote:

The currency of the United States can be traced back to 1690 before the birth of the country when the region was still a patchwork of colonies. The Massachusetts Bay Colony used paper notes to finance military expeditions. After the introduction of paper currency in Massachusetts, the other colonies quickly followed.

Can I point out that there wasn't a United States at this point in time. Nor was there an American dollar.