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Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

marno21

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-2040-strategy-will-kill-rural-ireland-according-to-coalition-825724.html

Deja vu anyone?

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BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I don't believe those facts. how can 1.3million Dubliners generate more tax than
the other 3.5 million. there have to a decent tax pull from limerick, cork , Waterford, galway, athlone etc let alone everywhere else.
you can spin statistics to show any facts you want.
I'm not buying it . all the cities and towns v the rest yes but Dublin v the rest.

"A study of the regional dimension of taxes and public expenditure in Ireland has shown that the richest regions – Dublin and the South West – contribute a substantial resource transfer to other regions."

Morgenroth (2007)

Essentially the GDA and Cork

its all down to the measure called Gross Value Added , essentially the " productivity " of an area, Dublin is nearly three times as productive as the midlands and 6 times more so against certain western areas

hence tats where all the money is generated , The GDA and to a lesser extent Cork

the_pen_turner

BoatMad wrote: »

Services like these were always provided at a cost , all these things cost money , postal service grew because they were needed

Today they are not needed as there is a plethora of options

I live 150km from my actual Bank Branch where my account is held , its irrelevant

Garda stations are a throwback to a different era, whats actually needed is a mobile force, not ones sitting behind a desk . Criminals dont cycle around on bikes robbing farms

The debate over post offices and Garda stations and physical banks is entirely misplaced and largely a generational thing, it will be meaningless to our children , rathe like closed rural railway stations are today

I have to agree with you there

there is a garda station a few mile down the road. I have never been inside it because they are never there when you want them and they never have any forms or stamps you might need . so you have to go to town anyway so why bother with the mick mouse station

same for post office. I have only been in my local post office twice in 3 years. both times were to pay my Vodafone bill after they screwed up the direct debit.
I don't know the last time I bought or used a stamp

BoatMad

D Trent wrote: »

A whole host of Banks have, if not are pulling out of towns in cost cutting, Ulster Bank, AIB , BOI etc

Dublin people don't even think twice when walking/driving to their local bank.
Not a taxation thing I know but these are vital services, I won't bring up the garda station / post office closures

Services like these were always provided at a cost , all these things cost money , postal service grew because they were needed

Today they are not needed as there is a plethora of options

I live 150km from my actual Bank Branch where my account is held , its irrelevant

Garda stations are a throwback to a different era, whats actually needed is a mobile force, not ones sitting behind a desk . Criminals dont cycle around on bikes robbing farms

The debate over post offices and Garda stations and physical banks is entirely misplaced and largely a generational thing, it will be meaningless to our children , rathe like closed rural railway stations are today

the_pen_turner

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry , the facts simply are against your argument , the tax distribution shows clearly that the Greater Dublin area largely subsidies the majority of the rest of the country. You cant separate one or two single things out of a whole mass of tax and costs

and there is no etc etc , these two items are about the only thing people can drag up in isolation

I don't believe those facts. how can 1.3million Dubliners generate more tax than
the other 3.5 million. there have to a decent tax pull from limerick, cork , Waterford, galway, athlone etc let alone everywhere else.
you can spin statistics to show any facts you want.
I'm not buying it . all the cities and towns v the rest yes but Dublin v the rest.

D Trent

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry , the facts simply are against your argument , the tax distribution shows clearly that the Greater Dublin area largely subsidies the majority of the rest of the country. You cant separate one or two single things out of a whole mass of tax and costs

and there is no etc etc , these two items are about the only thing people can drag up in isolation

A whole host of Banks have, if not are pulling out of towns in cost cutting, Ulster Bank, AIB , BOI etc

Dublin people don't even think twice when walking/driving to their local bank.
Not a taxation thing I know but these are vital services, I won't bring up the garda station / post office closures

feargale

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

These kinds of people are driven by one thing only when you really get down to it. The GAA. It always comes down to making sure that the Parish Games have enough players in each muddy rain-soaked field next to a packed church for sunday mass. I have also long suspected that the GAA is unoffically involved in 'sweetening' these kinds of groups. The Catholic Church too. The weaponised Comley Maidiens faction.

Apart from their own myopia, they only other function they serve is to hold this country back and make it as expensive as possible.

Your posts (this one in particular) might be more persusuasive if the level of Ross O'Carroll-Kelly bigotry therein didn't make Paisley and Gregory Campbell look like ecumenists, and if the level of Castlerock College snobbery didn't give Mrs. Bucket the appearance of a Marxist.

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

there are lots of things that people in rural Ireland are paying for the urban people aren't .
water (we are paying like everyone else through taxation) but lots of us have a well so are paying twice

septic tanks . urban people don't have this cost but we are all paying for the treatment plants

etc
etc
we are subsidising urban people with these

why cant urban people subsidise us on a few things like broadband

Sorry , the facts simply are against your argument , the tax distribution shows clearly that the Greater Dublin area largely subsidies the majority of the rest of the country. You cant separate one or two single things out of a whole mass of tax and costs

and there is no etc etc , these two items are about the only thing people can drag up in isolation

the_pen_turner

there are lots of things that people in rural Ireland are paying for the urban people aren't .
water (we are paying like everyone else through taxation) but lots of us have a well so are paying twice

septic tanks . urban people don't have this cost but we are all paying for the treatment plants

etc
etc
we are subsidising urban people with these

why cant urban people subsidise us on a few things like broadband

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

your point is that we shouldn't spend more foolishly by spending money in area that we don't need to.
that applies to building hospitals etc in Dublin city . move it out a bit and save loads of money now and loads in the future . not to mention the tangible benefits to patients and visiters who don't need to drive through the city.

its not " that we dont need to ". whats wrong is the " expectation" that people can live in relative isolation yet still expect services that in financial terms dont make sense to deliver into that isolation

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

your point is that we shouldn't spend more foolishly by spending money in area that we don't need to.
that applies to building hospitals etc in Dublin city . move it out a bit and save loads of money now and loads in the future . not to mention the tangible benefits to patients and visiters who don't need to drive through the city.

the argument is not that simple.

The requirements were for colocation with a major teaching hospital ( and a maternity hospital as well I think )

I would agree that were all three to be built on the M50 or somewhere , it would be a good idea,

Just building the childrens hospital in isolation , not such a good idea

thats has been well covered by various expert groups at this stage

and the subject has nothing to do with Dublin and the rural debate , the hospital is primarily designed to handle the greater Dublin area, because thats where the vast vast majority of its patients will come from

the_pen_turner

your point is that we shouldn't spend more foolishly by spending money in area that we don't need to.
that applies to building hospitals etc in Dublin city . move it out a bit and save loads of money now and loads in the future . not to mention the tangible benefits to patients and visiters who don't need to drive through the city.

BoatMad

greenpilot wrote: »

Hi,

I moved from a very built-up Kildare to the West 16 years ago and it is only when you actually move there that you realise the amount of mis-information spouted by folks from the East, particularly Dublin, regarding "Rural Ireland" and all that is involved in residing here.
Yes, I am lucky to have had the guts to make the move when I did, and yes, it is sometimes tough to carve out an existence. But the pro's outweigh the con's, in a big way.
I work in the Agri-Business sector, Retail end of things. I see, first hand, the day to day trials of rural life and I work in an industry which acts as a great barometer to how life is going "Down the Country", as folks from the East like to call it.
First of all, no-one who lives in Rural Ireland, refers to it as, "Rural Ireland". That's just a Dub thing. To everyone here, there is Ireland and then Dublin. That's it.
Secondly, I've never played GAA in my entire life and trust me, it has made no difference to my lifestyle or success whatsoever. Outside the Pale, the GAA is not the be-all of everything. It is simply not true. There are many layers to rural life, both economically and socially and the GAA is just a fraction of it, despite what you may think.
Thirdly, you would be amazed by the amount of folks from the East Coast and from the UK who are settling in and around the towns and villages west of the shannon. We are getting new customers almost weekly, who have chosen to settle here. These are folks with plenty of disposable cash, and they are spending it.
Work is the difficult one, that I admit, but there is work out there. Outside the pale, life is almost self sustainable if you know the tricks, and trust me, you soon learn them.
The difference in experiences between folks in the East talking about "rural Ireland" and those of us actually living here is laughable sometimes, but hey!, carry on....we are doing perfectly fine here. Nothing to see!

You completely miss the point,

The fact is a considerable number of people decamp from urban centres, mostly these fall into two camps, the economically distressed who move to a rural location to avail of cheaper housing , but are in fact economically tied to the capital for work, This creates a sub class of rural ommuter

The second is more well heeled " escapee " , who can largely avail of Irelands , ridiculous planning laws, and construct houses in situations where they are totally car dependant. These people add very little to a local area

We are not talking about famers, or others that are immersed in the rural , and thats largely agricultural economy ,, they have to typically live amongst their peers, BUT, that doesnt mean they have to live outside a larger collection of houses and services, like a small town o even a village .

A classic example is the current rural broadband initiative , a service so costly and uneconomic that all but one have pulled out of the schmeme

by the way , the term Rural ireland is used all the time , in planning documents, strategic objectives etc

Whats being criticised here, is the demand that one off rural dwellers should befit from the same level of service as urban dwellers, even though its costs many many more times to provide that service.

I have to travel 10km through back roads to get to my local biggish supermarket thats a 20 km round trip , but I get travel that in 10 minutes or so . The trip to an equivalent shopping centre in Dublin could take ½ an hour or more

I put up with that distance because I value the things I have, BUT on no uncertain terms am I demanding that all my services should be provided as if I was in a big town or city

Thats the issue , that people find galling, its not a " run down of ( Rural Ireland ) as you rant on about , its the nonsense of suggesting all areas should be treated the same at the same costs

A classic example is the current proposed rural broadband scheme , a scheme so non commercial as to have all but one of the vendors pull out and even the remaining vendor needs non commercial access to Eirs network to make it possible

greenpilot

Hi,

I moved from a very built-up Kildare to the West 16 years ago and it is only when you actually move there that you realise the amount of mis-information spouted by folks from the East, particularly Dublin, regarding "Rural Ireland" and all that is involved in residing here.
Yes, I am lucky to have had the guts to make the move when I did, and yes, it is sometimes tough to carve out an existence. But the pro's outweigh the con's, in a big way.
I work in the Agri-Business sector, Retail end of things. I see, first hand, the day to day trials of rural life and I work in an industry which acts as a great barometer to how life is going "Down the Country", as folks from the East like to call it.
First of all, no-one who lives in Rural Ireland, refers to it as, "Rural Ireland". That's just a Dub thing. To everyone here, there is Ireland and then Dublin. That's it.
Secondly, I've never played GAA in my entire life and trust me, it has made no difference to my lifestyle or success whatsoever. Outside the Pale, the GAA is not the be-all of everything. It is simply not true. There are many layers to rural life, both economically and socially and the GAA is just a fraction of it, despite what you may think.
Thirdly, you would be amazed by the amount of folks from the East Coast and from the UK who are settling in and around the towns and villages west of the shannon. We are getting new customers almost weekly, who have chosen to settle here. These are folks with plenty of disposable cash, and they are spending it.
Work is the difficult one, that I admit, but there is work out there. Outside the pale, life is almost self sustainable if you know the tricks, and trust me, you soon learn them.
The difference in experiences between folks in the East talking about "rural Ireland" and those of us actually living here is laughable sometimes, but hey!, carry on....we are doing perfectly fine here. Nothing to see!

nuac

blanch152 wrote: »

Future planning requires serious investment in Dublin, Limerick and Cork.

In Dublin, it must be public transport and linked to high-rise, high-density development so Dart Underground is vital, followed by Metro North. High-rise on strategic brownfield sites - the Docklands, older industrial estates and areas like the Liberties are vital to take advantage of the investment in public transport. After that, Dublin only needs to develop along the public transport lines.

Linking Cork and Limerick is vitally important hence the M20 must be financed. Public transport investment is also required, whether this is focussed on QBCs or Luas given their size.

Strategies for Waterford and Galway are also needed, with Galway in particular needing some radical transport solutions.

After that, the building-up of commuter towns to those cities - Ennis, Mallow, Tuam - could form part of the plan but places like Westport are too far from anywhere to have a future in the modern world. People won't like to hear that but it is the reality from around the world.

Gosh! Do you expect the people of Westport and area to commit hari-kari, or sell out to move to Dublin?

( Cannot move to Galway because of its housing and traffic problems )

Westport people are modest. They prefer to let the Irish Times do the talking. Some years ago IT readers voted it to be the best town in which to live.

Factors influencing that include

1. Industry

. Strong industrial tradition, some FDI, some local investment.
e.g 1.1. Allergan from California started there in 1974 with 25 jobs. After several major extensions they now employ about 1200 core highly skilled staff plus contractors. Inter alia that plant makes Botox for all markets outside America

1.2 The Hughes group , established in 1904 employ thousands designing, making, and selling protective clothing world wide. HQ still is Westport.

2 Tourism

Apart from Galway, Westport is the region's tourism centre. Wide range of accommodation, restaurants, pubs etc. Catering for the many thousands who stay to enjoy the local amenities including Clew Bay and it's many islands and beaches, Croagh Patrick and other scenic mountains.

DG, the many who visit Westport do not find it "too far from anywhere".

With all due deference to Blanch152 Westport people do look forward to the future with confidence. The town and Clew Bay area continues to attract new people (including D4s ) and fresh investment

BoatMad

But the reality is that Dublin is the mecca and always will be.

of course, for tech jobs, you need critical mass, you need an environment that young people ( i.e. under 40 ) enjoy, you need a critical mass of suppliers and support industries

IN ireland, with our population , that means only Dublin. The rest are also-rans, its too late to do much about it

Spanish Eyes

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

thats fair enough but (1) GOSH was built over 150 years ago when traffic was not the issue it is today and (2) The transport infrastructure for central London is far far superior to that of Dublin . Its about 500 yards from Euston and Kings X train stations,

No one is suggesting that the hospital should be anywhere apart from Dublin but its location in Dublin is an issue and to suggest expertise would not accessible if the location were moved 6 miles west is ludicrous

There is little or no private vehicle parking at GOSH, they emphasise this on their website.

Useless really complaining about SJH as the site now, ground has been broken and it will be built.

There was a guy on RTE M Finucane show this weekend Declan something or other from Williamstown in Galway. I listened with an open mouth at what he was espousing.

Rural Ireland needs investment, it needs jobs, it needs to be regenerated, blah blah and of course MF just let him speak not a rebuttal at all. I don't think it is related to jobs. That is largely farming. It is due to Aldi and Lidl and shopping centres on the outskirts of the nearest town, no town will benefit. It will only get worse. Young people have effectively left (escaped?) the minute they head off to college, rarely to return. There are no priests, huh?

Anyway, listening to the man I got no sense of vision at all, just the usual battle cry for more money from Central Government. For what though in deepest rural Ireland, sadly it will never be the same, and all the complaints and pleadings will not put the genie back in the bottle anymore.

I agree that hubs are the best option. But the reality is that Dublin is the mecca and always will be.

BoatMad wrote: »

good for you , I was arguing for the advantages of urban living , even if I am currently a refugee from suburbia to a rural area ( but was born in a rural area )

curent settlement patterns in rural ireland ( and I include small villages etc ) are completely unsustainable.

I agree completely, it is completely unsustainable. I just hate people who saying those who live in cities don't know their neighbours. It is completely the opposite of my experience. Great community spirit in cities IME.

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

I disagree, I have gotten to know my neighbours in a Dublin Apartment building very well. Great community spirit. All the kids play together outside, etc.

Just tonight my neighbour from two doors down dropped off a whole large cake!

good for you , I was arguing for the advantages of urban living , even if I am currently a refugee from suburbia to a rural area ( but was born in a rural area )

curent settlement patterns in rural ireland ( and I include small villages etc ) are completely unsustainable.

BoatMad wrote: »

and having neighbours close is often an advantage especially unlike Dublin,, you might be likely to actually know your neighbour

I disagree, I have gotten to know my neighbours in a Dublin Apartment building very well. Great community spirit. All the kids play together outside, etc.

Just tonight my neighbour from two doors down dropped off a whole large cake!

BrianBoru00

Podge_irl wrote: »

GOSH is located beside the national centre for neurology and is in a city centre location almost completely inaccessible by car. Copying the example of GOSH would leave the NCH exactly where it is. The NCH will be a teaching hospital but it will obviously only have pediatric specialties - having access to other specialties is important.

Which is essentially the core of the whole Dublin argument. It is the location that has the critical mass necessary to entice other people there. Dublin will continue to grow and that is that.

Now, investment could (and should) certainly be made in other urban areas such as Cork or Limerick, but this will also come at the expense of rural Ireland moreso than Dublin. Investment is going to increasingly be in urban areas as it is where you get the best bang for your buck.

thats fair enough but (1) GOSH was built over 150 years ago when traffic was not the issue it is today and (2) The transport infrastructure for central London is far far superior to that of Dublin . Its about 500 yards from Euston and Kings X train stations,

No one is suggesting that the hospital should be anywhere apart from Dublin but its location in Dublin is an issue and to suggest expertise would not accessible if the location were moved 6 miles west is ludicrous

wakka12

martingriff wrote: »

Perhaps but if we don't go upgrading and promoting other areas then that is how it will stay. Dublin should not be the only place. Limerick, Cork, Galway have a whole lot to give eg: airports, university, a wealth of people. This Dublin or bust just because it stupid and can stop Ireland's competitiveness

They don't have a wealth of people thats the whole problem
Limerick and galway and waterford are the same size as several of the larger commuter surburbs in dublin!
Id agree with cork being developed as a bit of counterbalance for people in the west and south

BoatMad

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I think the first thing to work out is why don't rural people want to live in towns and vilages.

a few scumbags ruin every village and town we have.
noise
smells
people very near you all the time
privacy, nosy neighbours twitching curtains
etc
etc

a huge proportion of rural dwellers are actually commuters, this isnt sustainable

secondly as someone whose lived in rural and urban areas, towns and villages are largely quiet places , and having neighbours close is often an advantage especially unlike Dublin,, you might be likely to actually know your neighbour

BoatMad

Doltanian wrote: »

We are much closer to America in this policy, Irish love their Space and living in towns and cities is prohibitively expensive because our planners refuse to build upwards. I live in almost 400 acres in our house and farm my great grand parents fought the English for. What rural Ireland needs more than anything else is fibre optic broadband and improved access to the cities for commuting ideally not by car.

actually the USA is largely an urban society , Ireland isnt , our settlement patterns are much worse then the USA

when I look out around my rural hinterland , I see a spread of light everywhere , its not a good way to build sustainable communities

In fairness, he is the first one to even talk about it. And when he was Minister of Transport we were broke!

The rest of them don't even talk about it, they are so busy pumping the parish pump.

Idbatterim

snotboogie wrote: »

In fairness Varadkar has been excellent in what he says on this topic, let's hope he stays strong and follows through.

he talk talked the talk and dont nothing in his time as transport minister, minister of health etc, dont expect any change! :rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

snotboogie wrote: »

In fairness Varadkar has been excellent in what he says on this topic, let's hope he stays strong and follows through.

We will see, its this "New Politics" that I dont trust.

I think FF will come under a lot of pressure over it, has Leo enough votes to push the plan through the dail?

snotboogie

In fairness Varadkar has been excellent in what he says on this topic, let's hope he stays strong and follows through.

Harry Palmr

Sligo is on the telly - Sligo City that is

blanch152

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/economy/2018/0205/938359-cabinet-to-meet-on-national-planning-framework/

He is right here. No matter what the rural TDs say there is a major need for concentrated infrastructure investment in urban areas

Future planning requires serious investment in Dublin, Limerick and Cork.

In Dublin, it must be public transport and linked to high-rise, high-density development so Dart Underground is vital, followed by Metro North. High-rise on strategic brownfield sites - the Docklands, older industrial estates and areas like the Liberties are vital to take advantage of the investment in public transport. After that, Dublin only needs to develop along the public transport lines.

Linking Cork and Limerick is vitally important hence the M20 must be financed. Public transport investment is also required, whether this is focussed on QBCs or Luas given their size.

Strategies for Waterford and Galway are also needed, with Galway in particular needing some radical transport solutions.

After that, the building-up of commuter towns to those cities - Ennis, Mallow, Tuam - could form part of the plan but places like Westport are too far from anywhere to have a future in the modern world. People won't like to hear that but it is the reality from around the world.

the_pen_turner

I think the first thing to work out is why don't rural people want to live in towns and vilages.

a few scumbags ruin every village and town we have.
noise
smells
people very near you all the time
privacy, nosy neighbours twitching curtains
etc
etc