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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Edward M

ELM327 wrote: »

Completely.
It is a red herring from the pro birthers... considering medically you (in 99% of cases) cannot detect DS before 12 weeks.

Guess they must be running out of logical arguments (seeing as there are none, other than emotive fear and wish to control others)

Alls fair in love and war. I can see the point in the argument even if its disagreed with.
Once abortion is liberalised and allowed to be legislated for by the oireachtas then exemptions to time limits can and may be pushed for by interested groups for all kinds of defects discovered before birth.
DS is just one, but others will emerge I'm sure.
Once it becomes legislative law then any group can lobby their TDs and govt for change.
If the repeal is passed as is proposed, then the foetus at no age will have constitutional protection.

Ash.J.Williams

a "love both" article appeared on my Facebook feed by proxy last night, about an abortion survivor who now leads a happy life,,,,

only thing is she wasn't actually aborted, her granny tried to murder her at 8 months, so entirely misleading

ELM327

baylah17 wrote: »

It is significant in how the anti repeal side work that even this thread has now been derailed and become a thread about DS
This is a debate about women's health and the right to choose.

Completely.
It is a red herring from the pro birthers... considering medically you (in 99% of cases) cannot detect DS before 12 weeks.

Guess they must be running out of logical arguments (seeing as there are none, other than emotive fear and wish to control others)

Edward M

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Children and adults with DS are capable of having their own independent thoughts and opinions. I think its interesting this is not considered. Even by legend of kira.

I know that adult DS sufferers have a vote, they are one of the exceptions at a ballot box, they can be accompanied by a parent or guardian when voting. Perhaps their vote will mirror the views of the parent or guardian. More than likely I would say, as most are open to suggestive thought.

Annasopra

Children and adults with DS are capable of having their own independent thoughts and opinions. I think its interesting this is not considered. Even by legend of kira.

freshpopcorn

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not so sure. I think only the extreme pro lifers are ok with them. The family I was talking about dont have strong views either way on the abortion debate but have strong views against this advertising.

I'll be honest I only know two families who'd be in a situation like this and one would be all repeal and the other would be keep. ie one would have repeal on facebook and the other would have something similar to this.
When I say I know them they are just people from the area/write blogs/etc.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I didnt ask about families. I asked about his friend by the way. People with DS can and do have their own views on things.

I wrote that wrong to be honest. What I meant was the families I've experienced all seem to have the same views through the generations ie child with down syndrome has same view as their parents.

baylah17

It is significant in how the anti repeal side work that even this thread has now been derailed and become a thread about DS
This is a debate about women's health and the right to choose.

Annasopra

freshpopcorn wrote: »

To be honest with you it all depends on the families and their beliefs!

I didnt ask about families. I asked about his friend. People with DS can and do have their own views on things.

Annasopra

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Every family or parents of someone who has down syndrome or has a family member/relative with a disability with all take a different view on the useage of the new billboard posters.

What about adults with DS themselves? Are you not even considering their views?

Annasopra

freshpopcorn wrote: »

To be honest with you it all depends on the families and their beliefs!

I'm not so sure. I think only the extreme pro lifers are ok with them. The family I was talking about dont have strong views either way on the abortion debate but have strong views against this advertising.

The Legend Of Kira

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

It hasn,t come up in conversation as of yet, friend is what I call " apathetic " when it comes to anything to do with politics never voted yet .

I'd be curious about that. I know children of single parents were disgusted at being used against marriage equality. I know a friend of mine with a child who has downs is disgusted by these posters.

Every family or parents of someone who has down syndrome or has a family member/relative with a disability with all take a different view on the useage of the new billboard posters.

For example the O Dowd family appear happy to lend their support to the newly formed group ( Disability voices for life )

https://www.facebook.com/disabilityvoicesforlife/videos/211989529367440/

Everyone will Interpret the billboards message in their own way, the " 90% " abortion rate the billboard is quoting , I Interpret they re trying to tell the electorate [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]the cold uncomfortable truth about how abortion impacts on a vulnerable section of society in another country.[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Even if they didn,t change the billboard posters on their vans, known repeal campaigners took issue & offence with the previous billboard poster which had a young mother on the poster, who also gave their permission for their image to be used .[/font]

[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

[/font]

freshpopcorn

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What does your friend think of the 90% posters?

To be honest with you it all depends on the families and their beliefs!

Annasopra

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

It hasn,t come up in conversation as of yet, friend is what I call " apathetic " when it comes to anything to do with politics never voted yet .

I'd be curious about that. I know children of single parents were disgusted at being used against marriage equality. I know a friend of mine with a child who has downs is disgusted by these posters.

The Legend Of Kira

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have a friend who has down syndrome I met from an older job who I hang out with during the week as in going for a coffee or going for lunch .

What does your friend think of the 90% posters?

It hasn,t come up in conversation as of yet, friend is what I call " apathetic " when it comes to anything to do with politics never voted yet .

Spanish Eyes

The irony is that when (if) the referendum is passed, and legislation is enacted, it will all be forgotten about within weeks.

That is not to say that people are not engaged or interested on one one side or the other, but that is the reality.

david75

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Last time their was Paddy Manning and Keith Mills the gay men against gay marriage.
This time they'll have women who regretted having abortions.

And look how that worked out.

Employing people like manning and Mills as representing the no campaign was campaign suicide.

The PLC have even worse represtening them.

Irish people will not buy what the loons and extremists are selling At all.

freshpopcorn

david75 wrote: »

‘I’m not against gay marriage, one of my friends is gay...but...’

Last time their was Paddy Manning and Keith Mills the gay men against gay marriage.
This time they'll have women who regretted having abortions.

david75

‘I’m not against gay marriage, one of my friends is gay...but...’

Annasopra

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have a friend who has down syndrome I met from an older job who I hang out with during the week as in going for a coffee or going for lunch .

What does your friend think of the 90% posters?

Ave Sodalis

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have a friend who is down syndrome I met from an older job who I hang out with during the week as in going for a coffee or going for lunch .

Then I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no respect for what you're trying to achieve here. If you were actually worried about people with DS, you'd be out there trying to make things easier on the parents who have to give up their entire lives to care for their children. Even those that want to do it need breaks. This is the risk that parents face with DS, you may have an almost near functional child like some people I know, or you might have a child who is completely dependent on you for the rest of their life. The latter is why some parents choose abortion, so surely if you were genuinely worried about them, you'd be helping to make that risk easier?

The same for any of the anti-abortion arguments. I understand that people are pro-life, it's a complex subject and not as clear cut as the SSM referendum. However, I cannot respect the opinion of people who are pro-life but aren't out there helping the homeless, campaigning for better welfare payments, campaigning for better child care initiative, or better work to home ratios etc. Basically, if you're pro-life but not trying to make society a somewhat easier place to have children, or ease some of the reasons people have abortions and therefore possibly reduce the number of abortions... then I personally don't care for your opinion. Respect your right to have an opinion, but don't respect the opinion itself.

January

freshpopcorn wrote: »

What did want you to sign up?
E-mail/volunteering?

My local repeal group will be having a stall in two weeks time, various locations around our constituency. Our aim is to provide information to people about our group see if they'd be interested in helping out with canvassing or behind the scenes and seeing how many people on the streets actually support the repeal of the 8th amendment.

We were out just before the March for Choice and only had two people argue with us about repealing the 8th. It was very heartening.

January

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have a friend who is down syndrome I met from an older job who I hang out with during the week as in going for a coffee or going for lunch .

If she's your friend then be respectful enough to refer to her as a person with down syndrome not someone who is down syndrome. Nobody is down syndrome they HAVE down syndrome.

Bannasidhe

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have a friend who is down syndrome I met from an older job who I hang out with during the week as in going for a coffee or going for lunch .

But not enough of a friend for you to refer to her as a person who has Downs Syndrome - by saying she is down syndrome is looks like that is all she is to you.

Bannasidhe

freshpopcorn wrote: »

What did want you to sign up?
E-mail/volunteering?

Looking for donations to buy more megaphones for roaring elderly men.

freshpopcorn

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Was just chatting to a few lovely girls campaigning to repeal the 8th by Penneys in cork city.
It made my heart happy to see the table surrounded by people looking to sign up and support the cause.

It was a far cry from the two elderly men roaring into megaphones slightly up the street about how repealing the 8th will cause newborns to be ripped from their mothers breast and is a threat to the nuclear family. The pro life side, keeping it classy as always.
Luckily they didn’t seem to have any support at all.

What did want you to sign up?
E-mail/volunteering?

The Legend Of Kira

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote:

If its the 90% abortion rate the truck is claiming, I googled their claim again to see what came in the google search- I found this article from the BBC who are also quoting a 90% abortion rate of unborn babies diagnosed with down syndrome .

I have a question for you: do you work with families of Downs children? Do you actively help care for the children than need constant supervision? Do you go out of your way on at least a weekly basis to allow parents of severe Down's children some time off? Do you help care for any of them when their parents die? Do you provide any sort of educational or social support for the children themselves?

Or is this another case of "what about the Down's children! Won't someone think of them and their fight against the heartless abortionists" and then go back to not giving a sh*t about them when this referendum is all over?

I have a friend who has down syndrome I met from an older job who I hang out with during the week as in going for a coffee or going for lunch .

Tipperary animal lover

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Was just chatting to a few lovely girls campaigning to repeal the 8th by Penneys in cork city.
It made my heart happy to see the table surrounded by people looking to sign up and support the cause.

It was a far cry from the two elderly men roaring into megaphones slightly up the street about how repealing the 8th will cause newborns to be ripped from their mothers breast and is a threat to the nuclear family. The pro life side, keeping it classy as always.
Luckily they didn’t seem to have any support at all.

Whiteroses, had the exact same experience today in cork, complete opposites of the spectrum, there was a lot of names signed up, the girl I talked to said they are delighted with the way the public are interacting with them, they had a few from other side shouting into their faces but that's to be expected she said.

SusieBlue

Was just chatting to a few lovely girls campaigning to repeal the 8th by Penneys in cork city.
It made my heart happy to see the table surrounded by people looking to sign up and support the cause.

It was a far cry from the two elderly men roaring into megaphones slightly up the street about how repealing the 8th will cause newborns to be ripped from their mothers breast and is a threat to the nuclear family. The pro life side, keeping it classy as always.
Luckily they didn’t seem to have any support at all.

Bannasidhe

January wrote: »

I've a friend who talks about the fact that had she known about her son's DS diagnosis in utero that she doesn't 100% know whether she would have travelled or not.

I refused the test back in the day - in the UK. I had chosen to have a child and if that child had a disability it wouldn't have made any difference.
However, if there had been a diagnosis of FFA I would have terminated the pregnancy. And that would have been the only reason I would ever have had an abortion.
My body. My Choice.

January

I've a friend who talks about the fact that had she known about her son's DS diagnosis in utero that she doesn't 100% know whether she would have travelled or not.