freshpopcorn wrote: » I am really getting the head bit of me for saying this and keep on being told I'm scaremongering but the pro-life campaign will really use this in my opinion and it may harm the repeal campaign.
A Bill may be commenced in either the Dáil or the Seanad but it must be passed by both Houses to become law. Usually, Bills are commenced in Dáil Eireann. Before it is introduced to the Dáil, the contents of the Bill are approved by the Government. Usually there will be a process of consultation with government departments and groups likely to be affected by the Bill. (Examples of these groups are voluntary organisations, lobby groups or members of the public.) Sometimes, the Government will publish a Green Paper. A Green Paper is a discussion document setting out ideas and inviting comment and views from individuals and relevant organisations. The Bill is then put before the Dáil for a general debate on the principles of the Bill. Members of the Dáil may make suggestions for amendments and additions to the Bill. The Bill is then sent to committees to be examined section by section. After the committee stage, more amendments may be made to the Bill. This is known as the report stage. The final stage in the process is a debate in the Dáil, confined to the contents of the Bill. The members of the Dáil will then vote on whether to pass the Bill. The Bill will then be sent down to the Seanad to go through the entire process of debate and committee examination again. The Seanad has 90 days (or any longer period agreed by both Houses) to consider the Bill and do one of the following: Pass the Bill without any amendment or Reject the Bill completely or Return the Bill to the Dáil with amendments If the Seanad rejects the Bill or returns it to the Dáil with amendments that the Dáil does not accept, the Bill will lapse after 180 days. The Dáil may, within those 180 days, pass a resolution declaring that the Bill is deemed to have been passed by both Houses. This provision means that the Seanad cannot generally stop the Dáil from introducing legislation – it can only cause delays.
RobertKK wrote: » It is not when the law can be changed any time in the Dail.
Water John wrote: » Cora Sherlock was just on Drivetime RTE 1 and she set out her stall. Worth listening to. I think she claimed the prohibition on abortion had save 5,000 lives each year. They are also targetting the lacuna between a Repeal vote, being successful, and any subsequent legislation. That this gap would allow a free for all. Also, strong attack focussed on Minister Harris. His Dail speech being, mean spirited. Mary Wilson cut her, at that point. Obviously a lot of clock watching in RTE on this. Certainly, not attacking politicians directly but that, we shouldn't hand this issue, to them.
ohnonotgmail wrote: » What is proposed is abortion up to 12 weeks. you cannot test for downs before 12 weeks. Its a complete red herring from the No side.
Cabaal wrote: » The Legend Of Kira wrote: » What exactly is horrible about the billboards & what if any type of pro life billboards would you find acceptable ? when they used some graphic posters in the past.... In the past? They are still using them at every opportunity This recent display for example
The Legend Of Kira wrote: » What exactly is horrible about the billboards & what if any type of pro life billboards would you find acceptable ? when they used some graphic posters in the past....
zedhead wrote: » The Legend Of Kira wrote: » As Michael was quoted in the article "" There are very different views in Down Syndrome Ireland ""[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The new posters on the billboard van driving around, they would of getting permission from the young boys parents/guardians to use his image on their billboard, given that they would of given such permission to use his image chances are his parents/guardians take the pro life position, if some parents/guardians of a son or daughter who has down syndrome take the repeal the 8th position that,s their business & are entitled to their opinion, but other parents/guardians might take a different position & lend their support to the pro life side in their own way such as allowing their sons image to be used in new billboards .[/font] How do you know they would have gotten permission and not just used a stock photo? Isn't that what they did in the marriage equality referendum - use a stock photo of 'parents & a baby' to demonstrate their point and the models came out to say they did not agree.
The Legend Of Kira wrote: » As Michael was quoted in the article "" There are very different views in Down Syndrome Ireland ""[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The new posters on the billboard van driving around, they would of getting permission from the young boys parents/guardians to use his image on their billboard, given that they would of given such permission to use his image chances are his parents/guardians take the pro life position, if some parents/guardians of a son or daughter who has down syndrome take the repeal the 8th position that,s their business & are entitled to their opinion, but other parents/guardians might take a different position & lend their support to the pro life side in their own way such as allowing their sons image to be used in new billboards .[/font]
S. Goodspeed wrote: » Thanks for the measured response and question WhiteRoses. If the pregnancy in any way physically endangers the life of the woman or would likely cause material, permanent damage (very hard to define and legislate for this I know) then am absolutely in favour of abortion. I currently struggle though to place more value on the woman's mental distress, life disruption, 'temporary' pain / suffering above the actual life of a fetus / baby. I appreciate that this is definitely where being a man does not help me empathise with the woman (though many better men than I obviously can).
Bannasidhe wrote: » Éire?? Who the actual uck calls it Éire?
Cabaal wrote: » In the past? They are still using them at every opportunity This recent display for example
Howard Tasteless Bank wrote: » Not necessarily. Took me ten seconds to find the little girl from a previous campaign of the same organisation on shutterstock. Presumably after what happened in the SSM referendum they've stopped using stock photos, but I actually can't find an image of the poster (rather than a photo of it with a crowd in front) on their FB or anywhere to do a reverse image search, which is making me slightly suspicious tbh.
WhiteRoses wrote: » Genuine question and I'm not disputing your belief, but are you happy for the life of the foetus to have equal rights to the mother, at the expense of that woman's bodily autonomy? Therefore taking priority over the woman's needs and wants? Because this is the bit I struggle with. The woman is living and breathing and I'm just not comfortable with this living woman suffering or losing her rights at the expense of a fetus that cannot even grow into a baby without her. It just doesn't sit right with me that the contents of her womb is prioritised over what the living woman wants. Now, when the baby can survive independently - that's a different ball game. But a mere weeks old pregnancy, causing huge distress, suffering and anguish to the living, breathing woman? I can't help myself. I'm on the womans side and I'm happy to trust her to do what she feels is necessary, whatever that may be.
pitifulgod wrote: » The Legend Of Kira wrote: » In reply to pitigulgod & Kylith, this week a young man who is a member of Down syndrome Ireland expressed a different point of view. "" [font=Georgia, serif]A young man with Down syndrome has lent his voice to the Save the Eighth campaign.[/font][font=Georgia, serif]Conor O'Dowd, from Drogheda, Co Louth, and his father Michael yesterday appealed to voters not to repeal the Eighth Amendment.[/font][font=Georgia, serif] "I took today off college to be here. This is a very important day. I am against abortion," Conor told a press conference in Dublin yesterday. Michael took issue with a statement released by Down Syndrome Ireland last week saying the use of the image of a girl with Down syndrome on pro-life campaign pamphlets was "disrespectful to both children and adults with Down syndrome ". The group said people with Down syndrome "should not be used as an argument for either side of this debate".[/font][font=Georgia, serif]"I'm a member of Down Syndrome Ireland. I've sat on the board in the past. There are very different views in Down Syndrome Ireland ... but I won't be silenced," said Michael. He said the organisation's CEO, Gary Owens, was "relatively new" and was doing a "good job", but added, "I think he's made a mistake".[/font][font=Georgia, serif]"We would not have felt obliged to speak out were it not for the relentless campaign from some quarters telling us to remain silent. This past week, it has felt like our existence is inconvenient for some supporters of the abortion referendum, and that they would rather we went away and were quiet.[/font][font=Georgia, serif] "We will not. It is a cold, hard, undeniable fact that when abortion is introduced, a disproportionate impact is suffered by those children diagnosed with some form of disability."https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/we-wont-be-silenced-on-the-eighth-insists-student-with-down-syndrome-36549791.html[/font] Considerable distress will be caused to many including those who have or are affected by down syndrome. That is what Down Syndrome Ireland considers to be the issue. You pretended as if the outrage is over nothing, there's a genuine reason for concern. You'll also find there are people with down syndrome or families with members who have down syndrome that are pro choice. Plenty of people oppose being forced into unwanted pregnancies.
The Legend Of Kira wrote: » In reply to pitigulgod & Kylith, this week a young man who is a member of Down syndrome Ireland expressed a different point of view. "" [font=Georgia, serif]A young man with Down syndrome has lent his voice to the Save the Eighth campaign.[/font][font=Georgia, serif]Conor O'Dowd, from Drogheda, Co Louth, and his father Michael yesterday appealed to voters not to repeal the Eighth Amendment.[/font][font=Georgia, serif] "I took today off college to be here. This is a very important day. I am against abortion," Conor told a press conference in Dublin yesterday. Michael took issue with a statement released by Down Syndrome Ireland last week saying the use of the image of a girl with Down syndrome on pro-life campaign pamphlets was "disrespectful to both children and adults with Down syndrome ". The group said people with Down syndrome "should not be used as an argument for either side of this debate".[/font][font=Georgia, serif]"I'm a member of Down Syndrome Ireland. I've sat on the board in the past. There are very different views in Down Syndrome Ireland ... but I won't be silenced," said Michael. He said the organisation's CEO, Gary Owens, was "relatively new" and was doing a "good job", but added, "I think he's made a mistake".[/font][font=Georgia, serif]"We would not have felt obliged to speak out were it not for the relentless campaign from some quarters telling us to remain silent. This past week, it has felt like our existence is inconvenient for some supporters of the abortion referendum, and that they would rather we went away and were quiet.[/font][font=Georgia, serif] "We will not. It is a cold, hard, undeniable fact that when abortion is introduced, a disproportionate impact is suffered by those children diagnosed with some form of disability."https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/we-wont-be-silenced-on-the-eighth-insists-student-with-down-syndrome-36549791.html[/font]
S. Goodspeed wrote: » Is it clear what will happen (or what is proposed to happen post a yes vote) in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities detected after the 12 week period? Can these be medically addressed at any point during the term or will the 12 week limit apply? Full disclosure I am leaning to the 'no' side at the moment, I am not conservative or religious or sexist but struggle with the idea of a cut off for when a foetus becomes an individual deserving of certain rights and protection. I currently believe that right should apply from point of conception given the lack of any sound alternatives - the 12 week seems pretty arbitrary. In the case of FFA though i (like 90% + of Irish people) am firmly in favour of allowing doctors to abort / extract as required. I dont think this should even come under the "pro choice" banner as there is not really a choice to be made in reality (although if the mother for some reason wants to continue carrying and it does not risk her life then that should be her right).
The Legend Of Kira wrote: » The new billboard van driving around town states " In Britain 90% of babies with down syndrome are aborted " How accurate is this claim ? well according to the factcheck by the journal.ie after a tv debate on this issue, they found the claim to be accurate .
WhiteRoses wrote: » Scaremongering over something the government may or may not do in the future is ridiculous. We need to vote on the wording we have in front of us. The current recommendation is 12 weeks. Downs cannot be detected at that gestation. Voting "no" to repeal in fear of a future government increasing the limit is a cop out. If you aren't ok with abortion, then just admit it. Its dishonest to make excuses. It reminds me of the marriage referendum, actually. "I have no problem with gay marriage and would vote yes, but what's to stop a future government legalising marriage to dogs/trees/the sofa? Can't take the risk".......... Its just a cop out.
The Legend Of Kira wrote: » The new billboard van driving around town states " In Britain 90% of babies with down syndrome are aborted " How accurate is this claim ? well according to the factcheck by the journal.ie after a tv debate on this issue, they found the claim to be accurate .[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]" Claim 1:[/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif] 90% of Down Syndrome diagnoses in England end in termination – Cora Sherlock[/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Verdict:[/font][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif] Mostly TRUE "[/font]http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-down-syndrome-fatal-foetal-abnormality-cora-sherlock-ruth-coppinger-eighth-amendment-vincent-browne-2842048-Jun2016/
