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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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Annasopra

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I can't find them they were clips from prime time/rte news over the years.
Even a poster a few posts ago said they wanted Ireland to be similar to Canada and they are lots of people out there with a view like this but there aren't enough to get a referendum to pass. Any sniff that Ireland might end up like this and I think the repeal will struggle.

For someone who suposedly supports repeal almost every post is subtly attacking repeal.

Zubeneschamali

thee glitz wrote: »

Would it not be more democratic to gauge demand for some halfway house, and then see if there's a want for more?

No.

Hannibal_Smith

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I can't find them they were clips from prime time/rte news over the years.
Even a poster a few posts ago said they wanted Ireland to be similar to Canada and they are lots of people out there with a view like this but there aren't enough to get a referendum to pass. Any sniff that Ireland might end up like this and I think the repeal will struggle.

That's taking it a little put of context. The poster said it with a view to the matter being between a woman and her doctors. As was mentioned much earlier In the thread, the point of full term abortions is lost on me, when at that stage the baby can survive outside the womb. The woman will have to give birth either way?

Annasopra

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Yes but if this happens in debates I can see there being trouble!
Can you?

You are actually saying yes that you are scaremongering.

freshpopcorn

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

That's taking it a little put of context. The poster said it with a view to the matter being between a woman and her doctors. As was mentioned much earlier In the thread, the point of full term abortions is lost on me, when at that stage the baby can survive outside the womb. The woman will have to give birth either way?

Sorry I must have misunderstood the poster!

Zubeneschamali

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

For someone who suposedly supports repeal almost every post is subtly attacking repeal.

"They're in my face! I'd vote yes, but Panti Bliss!"

I've been opposed to the 8th since before the 1983 referendum for damned good reasons. I have been proven right in blood. I will not stop pointing that out because someone online is "concerned" that my views might be "too much" for the electorate.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I can't find them they were clips from prime time/rte news over the years.
Even a poster a few posts ago said they wanted Ireland to be similar to Canada and they are lots of people out there with a view like this but there aren't enough to get a referendum to pass. Any sniff that Ireland might end up like this and I think the repeal will struggle.

I actually do get what you're saying and I fear that the pro-repeal campaign are dropping the ball. I think you're getting a harder time here than you deserve, and I think you're getting a harder time on here than you would face to face with people. The online debate about this is poisonous.

I'd also personally favour the Canadian model, and I think that the TDs you're referring to favour the same, where there are no legislative barriers to terminating a pregnancy (whether that means an abortion or early delivery) at any point and where it's a decision between a pregnant woman and her doctor or doctors. But that's not the same as being in favour of late term abortions.

I'm not under any illusions though and I know that such a model is not reflective of the democratic will of the people and I accept that.

david75

Glad I’m not the only one that spotted a supposed impartial participant posing as impartial and yet a moderator

Zubeneschamali

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Sorry I must have misunderstood the poster!

You understood me perfectly, I am in favour of the Canadian system of no legal limits.

I am also in favour of people looking up the statistics to check if Canada is the late-term baby sacrificing Satan worshipping capital of the world because of this legal regime.

Hint: no. Women don't go 28 weeks and then say feck it I'm dying for a fag and a pint let's have an abortion. The whole idea is insulting to half the human race, and mortally insulting to people who find themselves in a medical situation where a late term abortion is needed.

Oh, but has your lawyer cleared it with the Dept. of Busybodies in Cheap Suits? GO F*** YOURSELVES!

Hannibal_Smith

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Sorry I must have misunderstood the poster!

You're grand. Maybe I misread it! I think let term abortions would throw most people off. But we'll know more when the wording of the referendum comes out.

drkpower

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So no evidence at all to back up.your ridiculous cla8ms, well colour me surprised:rolleyes:

Hardly ridiculous claims.

PBP/solidarity (and possibly the greens) are on record as favouring a Canadian model/no restrictions/decision entirely between patient and doctor.

Timberrrrrrrr

drkpower wrote: »

Hardly ridiculous claims.

PBP/solidarity (and possibly the greens) are on record as favouring a Canadian model/no restrictions/decision entirely between patient and doctor.

The poster has been asked to provide links to his/her claims they TD's are in favour of what they are claiming, no links have been forthcoming (something something slander excuses) so until links to said claims are provided then yes they are ridiculous.

drkpower

That took me 90 seconds. Would,you not have been better having a quick search yourself?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/abortion-legislation-party-positions-448614.html

BP-Solidarity: Pro-choice, saying it is a woman’s decision. Abortions as early as possible and as late as necessary, but no specified circumstances

Leader Eamon Ryan says abortions should be decided between a doctor and women and not specified for in legislation

Water John

The Dail has TDs across the whole spectrum of views. That doesn't mean those at either end of that spectrum, should prevail.

Zubeneschamali

drkpower wrote: »

Leader Eamon Ryan says abortions should be decided between a doctor and women and not specified for in legislation

This is not news, and not some baby-murdering collective of Satanists. It is a common sense way to get the law out of the way of doctors treating pregnant women.

What possible good can emerge from a doctor deciding a woman needs an abortion in week X, and the hospital saying "whoa, let's call in a few dozen lawyers and get a court order". Whatever value of X you pick, no. Just no.

Billy86

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I've stated my opinion on the matter and you can accept it if you want. It there in the posts.

In other words "I think politicians who I won't name, saying things that I won't say nor elaborate on whatsoever, will try to take advantage of this for the reasons that I have not given."

That's a weak line of argument at the very best.

Water John

Zube, your view will not prevail, and I think you said that yourself, already.
As I propositioned, 12 weeks will be the very most, that has a possibility of getting a Dail majority, possibly a tighter regime.

drkpower

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This is not news, and not some baby-murdering collective of Satanists. It is a common sense way to get the law out of the way of doctors treating pregnant women.

What possible good can emerge from a doctor deciding a woman needs an abortion in week X, and the hospital saying "whoa, let's call in a few dozen lawyers and get a court order". Whatever value of X you pick, no. Just no.

I was really just refuting the suggestion that there is not a cohort (small maybe) of TDs who already favour a no restrictions regime. There is.

On your substantive point, I wouldn't fundamentally disagree. The likelihood of post 24 week abortions happening with no medical indication is quite unlikely.

But here's the thing:
1. That does not mean the law shouldn't address that situation; and
2. On a practical level, if that issue became part of the campaign, it is very likely to move swing voters to the anti-repeal side as - right or wrong - it will put the fear of god into them. The swing in this referendum is going to be quite tight, so everyone of those swing voters needs to be appealed to, whether that sits easily with people or not. After all, let's keep the the main thing (repealing the 8th) the main thing.

drkpower

Billy86 wrote: »

In other words "I think politicians who I won't name, saying things that I won't say nor elaborate on whatsoever, will try to take advantage of this for the reasons that I have not given."

That's a weak line of argument at the very best.

Look up billy; those politicians exist. There is logic to their argument but their argument may actually harm the repeal side.

Zubeneschamali

Water John wrote: »

As I propositioned, 12 weeks will be the very most, that has a possibility of getting a Dail majority, possibly a tighter regime.

Even if the new law is no abortion at all unless it's too late, like now, I want it out of the Constitution and into law.

The pro-life crew are quite right in one respect - once the constitutional ban is gone, their hypercatholic 1950s control womens health bullsh!t will be history.

And so will they.

freshpopcorn

Thanks for sharing drkpower. It was TD's connected to those parties I had my doubts about.(I couldn't find the article)
It's just my opinion that if people from the above parties are given to much air time especially on TV. It could damage the repeal campaign. The repeal campaign need to target those on the fence voters now or those who are a little nervous about the matter.

Billy86

drkpower wrote: »

Look up billy; those politicians exist. There is logic to their argument but their argument may actually harm the repeal side.

And I thank you for backing up your statement with something concrete. I would not however be overly concerned about PBP given that they make up 6 of the 158 seats in the Dail (and 0 of 60 in the Seanad).

drkpower

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Thanks for sharing drkpower. It was TD's connected to those parties I had my doubts about.(I couldn't find the article)
It's just my opinion that if people from the above parties are given to much air time especially on TV. It could damage the repeal campaign. The repeal campaign need to target those on the fence voters now or those who are a little nervous about the matter.

I agree but (Ruth coppinger aside) I think they are sensible enough to see the big picture. Richard Boyd Barrett for instance while I don't share his politics, I have a lot of time for, and I think he will be a moderating influence.

david75

We live in a country where the Healy Raes are consistently elected to positions outside their abilities and education and suitabilities and understanding.

The question is left hanging is this entire debate and issues at hand above the heads of many being asked to and entitled to vote on it.

Timberrrrrrrr

drkpower wrote: »

That took me 90 seconds. Would,you not have been better having a quick search yourself?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/abortion-legislation-party-positions-448614.html

BP-Solidarity: Pro-choice, saying it is a woman’s decision. Abortions as early as possible and as late as necessary, but no specified circumstances

Leader Eamon Ryan says abortions should be decided between a doctor and women and not specified for in legislation

As i said, no evidence that TD's support abortion at all/any stages of pregnancy.

freshpopcorn wrote: »

You no perfectly well there isn't evidence and that's it's just my opinion but in my opinion they are TD's out there with this view and they are fairly easy to pick out.
I am not going to name names because I'd just be told I'm slanderous/etc.
If these people state that in the future that they are will support abortion with no limit or choice. I think they could damage the campaign. The same goes for anybody involved in the campaign that might say they support abortion with no limit. The no side will essential say on that day in May when you vote to all abortion up to twelve weeks in years to come they could be no time limit.
This will make a lot of on the fence voters uncomfortable.
I don't understand why you can't understand this?

drkpower

Billy86 wrote: »

And I thank you for backing up your statement with something concrete. I would not however be overly concerned about PBP given that they make up 6 of the 158 seats in the Dail (and 0 of 60 in the Seanad).

True, in terms of legislative influence post repeal.

But if that cohort allow 'no restrictions' to be a talking point in the campaign, which the anti repeal will relish and seize upon, the damage may be done before any piece of legislation even has the chance t be debated.

Zubeneschamali

freshpopcorn wrote: »

The repeal campaign need to target those on the fence voters now or those who are a little nervous about the matter.

No, the repeal campaign is roughly 2:1 ahead because repeal is popular. They should ignore concern trolls trying to get them to aim low or water down their message.

And if they don't win, well, we have abortion on demand in England anyhow. In the Constitution, even. It is awful for the women in direct provision, prison or mental hospitals who cannot travel, and tough for women who struggle to afford the trip, bu, you know what?

Your bullsh!t half-way appease-the-hyper-catholics-who'll-oppose-it-anyhow amendment wouldn't help any of those women in any case.

drkpower

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

As i said, no evidence that TD's support abortion at all/any stages of pregnancy.

You are reading their view very different to how I do.

This isn't a secret. PBP have been clear and consistent on that point, in fairness to them.

Water John

David, I wouldn't be taking such a high moral position on the Healy Raes. Danny may be limited, but Michael would run rings around most people in Dail Eireann.

Zubeneschamali

david75 wrote: »

The question is left hanging is this entire debate and issues at hand above the heads of many being asked to and entitled to vote on it.

That was the whole point of the Citizen's Assembly. A group of people who do not answer to questions about parish pumps who had time to listen to the actual experts.

And now the Government gets to hide behind them.