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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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Edward M

J C wrote: »

Saying so doesn't make it so.

There's no point in putting your head in the sand though.
You don't have to change your views based on sound research that concludes against your beliefs.
The fact that someone can say they happily aborted and would recommend it to others is sad Imo.

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-pills-study-3030940-Oct2016/

Timberrrrrrrr

J C wrote: »

Saying so doesn't make it so.

Do i have to post 10 video clips of women who dont regret thier decision? You can keep posting them but the evidence points to the fact that the MAJORITY of women that avail ofabortion services do not regret the decision they made.

J C

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do i have to post 10 video clips of women who dont regret thier decision? You can keep posting them but the evidence points to the fact that the MAJORITY of women that avail ofabortion services do not regret the decision they made.

These are very interesting stories from real women ... who have had abortions ... and deeply regret their decision.

... a very sad theme running through many of their stories is that they felt that they had no choice other than have the abortion ... quite ironic, given all the talk of being pro-choice from the abortion lobby !!!

J C

The reason the 8th amendment was introduced by Garret Fitzgerald's government, in 1983, was because of the Roe v Wade case in the USA in 1973, which introduced unlimited abortion right up to birth. The decision relied on privacy rights in the US constitution ... which have parallells in the Irish Constitution.
How ironic that just as the US is rolling back some of the most extreme aspects of abortion law in America ... we are talking about removing a protection in our constitution, put there to prevent unlimited abortion being introduced by judicial fiat in Ireland ... like happened in the USA in 1973.

Quote:-
"Dr. Kathi A. Aultman shared why she stopped committing abortions in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing on March 15th, 2016. The purpose of the hearing was to discuss two pro-life bills. One bill would ban abortions after 20 weeks. The other would ensure that a baby accidentally born alive during an abortion procedure be given proper medical care and treatment. Aultman, who has performed both first and second trimester abortions, testified in favor of the bills."

Turtwig

Mod:

I'm a little hesitant about allowing videos. By all means utilise their arguments but please don't post links or full videos as a means of argument.
This is serious moral and ethical issue the minimum that can be of expected of us is to put our opinions and arguments forward. Not the words verbatim of others. Our own opinions or interpretations of others opinions in our own words.

The mods are going to discuss further but for the time being it seems prudent to request no videos are posted.

Thanks

EirWatchr

Delirium wrote: »

There have been numerous studies that show it to be so.

For example:

Source

For balance: caveat emptor on the objectivity of the methodology used in that study too.

david75

It’s bananas how completely out of touch certain Christians here seem to be with the tenets of the faith and have instead taken up with a hysterical rancid dogma that has no place in it.

Are you members of the Catholic Church or the Westboro Baptists?

J C

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod:

I'm a little hesitant about allowing videos. By all means utilise their arguments but please don't post links or full videos as a means of argument.
This is serious moral and ethical issue the minimum that can be of expected of us is to put our opinions and arguments forward. Not the words verbatim of others. Our own opinions or interpretations of others opinions in our own words.

The mods are going to discuss further but for the time being it seems prudent to request no videos are posted.

Thanks

I note that you believe this to be a 'serious moral and ethical issue' ... actually, the most serious moral and ethical issue to ever be put to Irish voters.

I accept your mod ruling on videos ... but I respectfully disagree with your reasoning on it.

I fully accept that 'tasteless' or 'crass' videos would be completely out ... but I do think that getting the actual opinions of real people on this issue is important ... and if video links can do this, I see no issue with using them in asssisting people in making up their minds on this issue.

Merely rehashing our own personal opinions won't get us very far IMO.

Why do you have a problem, for example, hearing from women who have had abortions and deeply regretted their decisions?

As a man, I cannot present their views, other than in their own words.

It is a recurring theme in the general abortion debate, that women should have the greater say on whether abortion is introduced ... and here you are censoring me for giving women hurt by abortion their say on the issue.

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

I note that you believe this to be a 'serious moral and ethical issue' ... actually, the most serious moral and ethical issue to ever be put to Irish voters.

I accept your mod ruling on videos ... but I respectfully disagree with your reasoning on it.

I fully accept that 'tasteless' or 'crass' videos would be completely out ... but I do think that getting the actual opinions of real people on this issue is important ... and if video links can do this, I see no issue with using them in asssisting people in making up their minds on this issue.

Merely rehashing our own personal opinions won't get us very far IMO.

Why do you have a problem, for example, hearing from women who have had abortions and deeply regretted their decisions?

As a man, I cannot present their views, other than in their own words.

It is a recurring theme in the general abortion debate, that women should have the greater say on whether abortion is introduced ... and here you are censoring me for giving women hurt by abortion their say on the issue.

Are you interested in hearing from women who have no regrets or just the ones who suit your agenda?

J C

david75 wrote: »

It’s bananas how completely out of touch certain Christians here seem to be with the tenets of the faith and have instead taken up with a hysterical rancid dogma that has no place in it.

The most basic tenet of the Christian Faith is to honour the Lord your God with all your heart ... and to love your neighbour as yourself.
... your neighbour being all Human Beings you interact with ... including unborn Human Beings.

... on that basic test ... procured abortion is totally anathema to the most basic tenet of the Christian Faith.

J C

eviltwin wrote: »

Are you interested in hearing from women who have no regrets or just the ones who suit your agenda?

I will listen to both sides ... that's the essence of free speech and civil debate.

Are you interested in listening to women who have deep regrets about abortion ... or just the women who suit your agenda?

Turtwig

J C wrote: »

I note that you believe this to be a 'serious moral and ethical issue' ... actually, the most serious moral and ethical issue to ever be put to Irish voters.

I accept your mod ruling on videos ... but I respectfully disagree with your reasoning on it.

I fully accept that 'tasteless' or 'crass' videos would be completely out ... but I do think that getting the actual opinions of real people on this issue is important ... and if video links can do this, I see no issue with using them in asssisting people in making up their minds on this issue.

Merely rehashing our own personal opinions won't get us very far IMO.

Why do you have a problem, for example, hearing from women who have had abortions and deeply regretted their decisions?

As a man, I cannot present their views, other than in their own words.

It is a recurring theme in the general abortion debate, that women should have the greater say on whether abortion is introduced ... and here you are censoring me for giving women hurt by abortion their say on the issue.

I'd say you can reference the relative parts of video. Quote transcripts if needs be. Just keep it as concise and to the point as possible. Giving your own considerations on the material you reference.

J C

Turtwig wrote: »

I'd say you can reference the relative parts of video. Quote transcripts if needs be. Just keep it as concise and to the point as possible. Giving your own considerations on the material you reference.

I thank you for this sensible ruling. I think that video links can provide thoughtful and informative ideas (for both sides of this debate).

For my part, I promise to not link to tasteless videos ... only videos that address the abortion issue in measured and reasonable tones.

david75

J C wrote: »

The most basic tenet of the Christian Faith is to honour the Lord your God with all your heart ... and to love your neighbour as yourself.
... your neighbour being all Human Beings you interact with ... including unborn Human Beings.

... on that basic test ... procured abortion is totally anathema to the most basic tenet of the Christian Faith.

Unless they happen to be women.

Remind me again how you have a say over a woman’s body?

While you’re at it remind me how your level of ‘faith’ is any less frightening than sharia law?

eviltwin

J C wrote: »

I will listen to both sides ... that's the essence of free speech and civil debate.

Are you interested in listening to women who have deep regrets about abortion ... or just the women who suit your agenda?

No I'm happy to listen to all experienced in this area. Their stories are more important to me than endless talking heads. In saying that I'd never cherry pick stories and ignore others to try give my opinion more weight. For every regret story we could have a story from someone with no regrets but where would that get us ultimately?

end of the road

david75 wrote: »

It’s bananas how completely out of touch certain Christians here seem to be with the tenets of the faith and have instead taken up with a hysterical rancid dogma that has no place in it.

Are you members of the Catholic Church or the Westboro Baptists?

again, based on my very limited knowledge of christianity and catholicism, abortion is an abomination upon all mighty god, an abomination upon his most holy. christians can correct me on that but that is my understanding.

Delirium

EirWatchr wrote: »

For balance: caveat emptor on the objectivity of the methodology used in that study too.

What about the HSE? Is that an acceptable source?

Research by the HSE’s Crisis Pregnancy Programme in 2010 showed that 87% of women in Ireland who had an abortion said it was ‘the right outcome’ for them.

Page 108 of linked pdf

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Delirium

....... wrote: »

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Agreed. But you do see the 'abortion regret' angle crop up every so often, as seen recently in the thread, so just posting to show regret is the exception rather than the norm.

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end of the road

....... wrote: »

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nope wrong, most pro-lifers don't lie. small elements of both sides do lie, lieing isn't unique to elements of 1 side.

Delirium

end of the road wrote: »

nope wrong, most pro-lifers don't lie. small elements of both sides do lie, lieing isn't unique to elements of 1 side.

as I read it, ..... was responding to the data about 'abortion regret'. Are you saying that the stats are wrong?

end of the road

Delirium wrote: »

as I read it, ..... was responding to the data about 'abortion regret'. Are you saying that the stats are wrong?

i don't believe that they can 100% prove that the 8th isn't preventing abortions from taking place. i don't believe that it is possible to prove for definite either way whether the 8th does or doesn't work in this regard. my personal belief is that the 8th will likely deter some abortions from taking place via the expence involved, but that is an opinion, and i have been 100% clear that it is an opinion everywhere i discussed the specific issue even if ..... refuses to except that it is an opinion only.

.......

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Delirium

end of the road wrote: »

i don't believe that they can 100% prove that the 8th isn't preventing abortions from taking place. i don't believe that it is possible to prove for definite either way whether the 8th does or doesn't work in this regard. my personal belief is that the 8th will likely deter some abortions from taking place via the expence involved, but that is an opinion, and i have been 100% clear that it is an opinion everywhere i discussed the specific issue even if ..... refuses to except that it is an opinion only.

what has the above to do with the question I posed to you?

.......

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Delirium

end of the road wrote: »

i don't believe that they can 100% prove that the 8th isn't preventing abortions from taking place. i don't believe that it is possible to prove for definite either way whether the 8th does or doesn't work in this regard. my personal belief is that the 8th will likely deter some abortions from taking place via the expence involved, but that is an opinion, and i have been 100% clear that it is an opinion everywhere i discussed the specific issue even if ..... refuses to except that it is an opinion only.

The thousands of Irish women who have had abortions since the implementation of the 8th surely is proof?

end of the road

Delirium wrote: »

what has the above to do with the question I posed to you?

it's my answer to your question. i'm suggesting that the research was done in good faith but i don't think it can reliably prove that the 8th isn't stopping some abortions, just like research saying the opposite can reliably prove that it is stopping some abortions. my personal belief is that some abortions will be stopped by it via the expences involved in traveling to the uk.

Delirium wrote: »

The thousands of Irish women who have had abortions since the implementation of the 8th surely is proof?

it's proof that the 8th isn't stopping every abortion, yes . something i have never denied. there is a difference between some abortions and every abortion. no law prevents 100% of anything at the end of the day

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EirWatchr

Delirium wrote: »

What about the HSE? Is that an acceptable source?

Page 108 of linked pdf

It's not the source that's at issue, it's the bias of the interpretation of reports and the report methodology that's at issue - in other words, what was actually measured and what can be reliably stated from what was measured, without leaping to sweeping conclusions.

As Mark Twain said, most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination

Instead of being exclusive in what you take from the report, look at everything a report can tell you:

The results on the following page (109) about level of regret regarding the outcome is just as relevant (if not moreso) to what is being discussed. Note though that it does suffer from some of the same shortcomings in methodology as the other report you linked (e.g. it didn't capture how recently before the survey this had all happened and so no conclusion on longer v. shorter term regret can be made).

* Nearly half of women who had an abortion expressed some level of regret. (Fig. 7.12).

* Men expressed more regrets than women in cases of abortion. (Fig. 7.12)

* For both women and men, the level of regret at giving birth is drastically lower than abortion regret (88-96% had no regrets at all after giving birth). (Fig. 7.12)

* Significantly less men (up to 30% less) than women felt abortion was the right outcome. (Fig. 7.11)

* In the case of nearly half of abortions, the man either didn't support the abortion or wasn't told. (Fig. 7.10)