nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

__________________

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

What is impossible?

Having a termination and then having a child six months later.

Human gestation = 9 months

The MAP messes with your hormones so I would expect a gap of 1-2 months before subsequent conception.

So your scenario: girls giving birth at 4 month's gestation, which is massively likely to lead to the death of the infant.

Unless you're actually incorrect about what happened and the real reason for these births, unless you're lying about them, is that the MAP failed or was taken too late.

January

The MAP is a horrible drug that pumps hormones into your body to stop an egg being produced to fertilize. If an egg has already been released from the ovary then it won't work. It's not recommended that a woman use this drug more than a couple of times in their life time.

In contrast, Misoprostol, the drug most commonly used to perform abortions before 12 weeks gestation is used to treat stomach ulcers and arthritis among other things. It is commonly taken every day by various people.

Guy:Incognito

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

I'm not a "pro-lifer" actually. I agree with abortion in certain cases and I thought originally that's what would be proposed.

But I can't and won't vote for what's being pushed now, abortion up to twelve weeks without restriction where the front line treatment is a two stage pill with a woman pumping blood out of herself at home. That's criminal medical negligence.

That's not what repealing the 8th does. If it's repealed then it'll be up to the Oireachtas to legislate on abortion in whatever manner they decide on.

[Deleted User]

joeyanne wrote: »

But NOBODY is saying you will have an abortion after every time you have sex. YOU are saying you would prefer woman take the morning after pill EVERY time after they have sex.

Not only is it bad to do this, it is extremely costly. It is about ~€40, and not every pharmacy offers this service.

People on average have sex at least once a week, if you don't want children then you either use contraception, the morning after pill or you don't have sex.

Abortion should not be another option to replace contraception or the morning after pill, don't want children then don't have penetrative sex.

nozzferrahhtoo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

an abortion before 12 weeks IS popping a pill. again, your ignorance is astounding.

Deleted User wrote: »

At 12 weeks its also not a case of popping a pill

Do you often attempt to rebut people by attacking something entirely different to what they actually said?

The user clearly said "before" and you simply moved the goal posts over to "at".

Deleted User wrote: »

There is also untold psychological damage that the mother can suffer from including depression.

Yes. And there is also untold psychological damage that the mother can suffer from, including depression, from pregnancy and birth too. Which can be exacerbated by it being a pregnancy and birth she does not, or may never have, wanted.

Deleted User wrote: »

I am shocked that you would prefer people to have an abortion than taking the morning after pill.

Are you often shocked by things people never actually said?

Deleted User wrote: »

How many abortions do you think someone can have?

Well thats EXACTLY where your narrative croaks. Your approach would be to have MAPs being popped after every sexual encounter, just in case. A position born of the same level of information that your 20+ out of date comment about suicide was: None.

Whereas a medical abortion, obtainable in the early months of finding out one is pregnant, would be something only sought when required.

So your non-point of "How many abortions do you think someone can have?" really should be "How many abortions do you think someone would ever REQUIRE?". For most people using contraception the answer is likely to be between zero and none, and for a few others a maximum of ONE.

So to take your "you would prefer people to have an abortion than taking the morning after pill" approach to it it seems YOU would prefer people pump themselves periodically full of harmful drugs in an ongoing basis, than have a single (if even that) medical termination of a pregnancy".

Wow. Just.... wow.

Deleted User wrote: »

You are aware of the medical problems associated with abortions, both physical and mental?

I am aware there is a low PROBABILITY of such things after abortion, but that it is not really that common. However I am aware of the high CERTAINTY of medical probably associated with overuse of something like MAP. More aware, it seems, than you appear to be.

Deleted User wrote: »

Typo, I would vote Yes for medical reasons, Incest and Rape.

Despite having NO IDEA how such a system would, or even could, work?

Deleted User wrote: »

The effects you mention from the morning after pill is also associated with Abortions.

Again: No. It is a POTENTIAL with abortions. But with not that high a rate. The use of MAP, especially with any level of consistency, would be a CERTAINTY of massive harm.

Deleted User wrote: »

however, there is a greater risk of psychological damage with an abortion.

What are the relative rates then? Since you know one is greater than the other, you must have citations and numbers?

Also how much of the psychological damage from abortion is caused BY our erroneous and judgmental attitudes TO abortion? How many women suffer needlessly after abortion because of the outright lies people tell ABOUT abortion?

Deleted User wrote: »

Having lived in the UK I have seen how women use abortions

How have you "seen" it? Are you hanging out outside clinics? Taking polls? That's creepy. Maybe you are only seeing (or inventing) what you want to see. Perhaps instead you can cite ACTUAL FIGURES on how women are using abortion in places like the UK, US, Canada and so forth?

What % of pregnancies end in abortion in those places? What % of those are 2nd, 3rd, 4th time terminations? And what % of abortions are by women who have only one abortion EVER?

Let us see hard date, not biased "I have seen" anecdote nonsense for once.

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont want to see Ireland become the next England with morals and decency being replaced with liberal ideals.

Drop the Partisan generalizations. Politics should be contextual. Attack abortion on it's own merits, not because you have tangentially linked it to some arbitrary label like "liberal". That way intellectual bankruptcy and laziness lies.

Deleted User wrote: »

Also there is the issue that once the law has been repealed there is nothing stopping any govermnet ujpping the age upwards whenever they want, how long until we are at 24 weeks?

That is nothing but fear mongering. There is PLENTY to stop them. Including their own electorate. And no government is going to make such a move without cause or benefit. Could it happen? Sure. Will it happen without good reason and against the will of the electorate? Likely not.

Deleted User wrote: »

What is impossible?

"I have seen young girls abort a child only to have a child 6 months later."

So young girls.... not just one but many of them.... have managed to HAVE a child 6 months after aborting a previous one?

That means in 6 months said girl has managed to:

1) Conceive again
2) Gestate the baby to viability.
3) Give birth.

A process that usually takes 10 months? And you want your anecdote to be taken seriously on this thread, or something?

Deleted User wrote: »

If they really dont want to have children or run the risk of having children then the answer is to not have Penatrive Sex.

And how well do you think Abstinence approached to contraception have worked when put into any kind of practice in our world? You do know the result has been an INCREASE in unwanted and teen pregnancies, right? Or will we chalk that down with suicide laws, and medical effects of MAP, as things you appear to know nothing about, but talk about a lot?

[Deleted User]

gallifreya wrote: »

Yes, I had a choice to have sex. Some women don't.

My first son is in the world now due to double contraceptive failure (condom broke, morning after pill failed).

Third son was born at 5.10am and I ‘delivered’ my IUD 20 minutes later. I was able to make a ‘choice’ to continue with both those unplanned pregnancies because my circumstances allowed.

Had I been in a more precarious financial position, if my job hadn’t been secure and didn’t top up maternity leave benefit, or if I didn’t have the support systems necessary to help out with childcare, that choice could have gone the other way. It could have gone the other way purely to survive and not leave my family homeless or destitute. The UK figures show upwards of 50% of abortions are cited due to contraceptive failure.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/06/half-abortions-due-failed-contraception-new-report/

Are you saying that you would have taken abortion had it been available other than having your own children?

You dont need to be rich to raise children, plenty of people of low incomes do this, even those on the dole.

You dont get a medal for having your children, you give love and get love back.

SusieBlue

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said, if they were desperate to not have children they could have used the morning after pill.

If they really dont want to have children or run the risk of having children then the answer is to not have Penatrive Sex.

Yes, because discouraging people from having sex worked so well in the past (reference: the Magdalene laundries).

As for the MAP its now been explained to you about 5 times why it isn't possible or medically recommended to take it on a regular basis. Please do some research on it because you just sound ignorant.

Ave Sodalis

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A wee miracle.
Like when people used to get married and along would come baby 6 months later.

Solves Donald Trump's problem of it being wrong for a baby to be born in the 9th month...

baylah17

Deleted User wrote: »

How many abortions do you think someone can have?

Thats nobodys business but the woman herself.

joeyanne

Deleted User wrote: »

You are aware of the medical problems associated with abortions, both physical and mental?

But NOBODY is saying you will have an abortion after every time you have sex. YOU are saying you would prefer woman take the morning after pill EVERY time after they have sex.

Not only is it bad to do this, it is extremely costly. It is about ~€40, and not every pharmacy offers this service.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I don't get the thing where on the one hand discussions like this are unrepresentative of the Irish people who are staunchly and quietly pro-life, or at least will balk at unrestricted access up until 12 weeks, and on the other hand the place will turn into the last days of Rome (but with sh1ts n giggles abortions) if the 8th is repealed. Is the 8th keeping Irish morality correct and so not representative of social mores, or is it representative of those mores and so repealing it will have relatively little effect? Pro-life seem very divided on that point.

gallifreya

Deleted User wrote: »

Women already have choices;

They choose to have sex.
They can choose to use contraception.
They can choose to use the morning after pill.

If we were voting for abortion for Rape, Incest or medical reasons then I would vote no. What we are voting on is if women can have a 4th option because she couldn't be bothered to choose one of the first three options.

Yes, I had a choice to have sex. Some women don't.

My first son is in the world now due to double contraceptive failure (condom broke, morning after pill failed).

Third son was born at 5.10am and I ‘delivered’ my IUD 20 minutes later. I was able to make a ‘choice’ to continue with both those unplanned pregnancies because my circumstances allowed.

Had I been in a more precarious financial position, if my job hadn’t been secure and didn’t top up maternity leave benefit, or if I didn’t have the support systems necessary to help out with childcare, that choice could have gone the other way. It could have gone the other way purely to survive and not leave my family homeless or destitute. The UK figures show upwards of 50% of abortions are cited due to contraceptive failure.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/06/half-abortions-due-failed-contraception-new-report/

Bannasidhe

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Ah, I see...

A wee miracle.
Like when people used to get married and along would come baby 6 months later.

[Deleted User]

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And I have seen terrified, suicidal, women and girls arrive in England desperate for a way out of the crises they find themselves in.

You would condemn more women to that??
What about your concern for their psychological welfare?

I see you are another one who seems to believe - despite all the information that has emerged - that Ireland was some bastion of morality an decency.

As I said, if they were desperate to not have children they could have used the morning after pill.

If they really dont want to have children or run the risk of having children then the answer is to not have Penatrive Sex.

Guy:Incognito

pleas advice wrote: »

Some people believe an unborn human has rights, is it really that hard to understand?

Presumably there's a list of these people so that any children born as a result of unwanted pregnancies that are living in poverty because the parents couldn't afford them or are abused in the home can be dropped off to be cared for by the people that wanted them to exist so badly? Or does your concern end once the mother is forced to go through with the pregnancy?

[Deleted User]

optogirl wrote: »

Please provide evidence for this rather than 'I know a girl who...'

Please accept that women are not ethically impaired dopes who are queuing up to have abortions just because they can. What business is it of yours anyway? Nobody is going to force you to have one.

The number of abortions carried out in England and Wales last year was the highest in five years, driven by growing numbers of women in their 30s and 40s who are terminating a pregnancy, official figures show.

More women are having multiple abortions, according to the annual statistics released by the Department of Health. Almost four in 10 terminations are now carried out on women who have undergone the procedure before. Fifty women had each had eight terminations, the figures revealed.

In all, 185,824 abortions were carried out on women and girls in England and Wales last year. That was 1,253 (0.7%) more than the 184,571 performed in 2014, and the largest number since the 189,931 carried out in 2011.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Having lived in the UK I have seen how women use abortions, especially young girls from 16 years of age. For many it is nothing more than a supermarket product they can use whenever they need it.

I have seen young girls abort a child only to have a child 6 months later.

I dont want to see Ireland become the next England with morals and decency being replaced with liberal ideals.

Also there is the issue that once the law has been repealed there is nothing stopping any govermnet ujpping the age upwards whenever they want, how long until we are at 24 weeks?

And I have seen terrified, suicidal, women and girls arrive in England desperate for a way out of the crises they find themselves in.

You would condemn more women to that??
What about your concern for their psychological welfare?

I see you are another one who seems to believe - despite all the information that has emerged - that Ireland was some bastion of morality an decency.

Ave Sodalis

Deleted User wrote: »

I have seen young girls abort a child only to have a child 6 months later.

Ah, I see...

[Deleted User]

kylith wrote: »

As Nozz says allowing abortion in cases of rape is not workable:
1) Await a conviction for rape. But this might not come. Or it might take way too long.
2) Merely a filed accusation of rape with the Police. This would incentivize false accusations of rape by people who want abortions.
3) Merely take the woman's word for it she was raped: Functionally indistinguishable from abortion on demand.

Impossible.

What is impossible?

optogirl

Deleted User wrote: »

For many it is nothing more than a supermarket product they can use whenever they need it.

Please provide evidence for this rather than 'I know a girl who...'

Please accept that women are not ethically impaired dopes who are queuing up to have abortions just because they can. What business is it of yours anyway? Nobody is going to force you to have one.

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

however, there is a greater risk of psychological damage with an abortion.

Says who?

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/8413/9611/5708/Abortion_Emotional_Effects.pdf
In 2008, the American Psychological Association’s Task Force on Mental Health and Abortion (TFMHA) evaluated all empirical studies on the emotional effects of abortion that had been published since 1989. It concluded that • The relative risk of mental health problems is no greater among adult women who resolve unplanned pregnancy with a single, elective, first trimester abortion than it is among those who give birth.

Deleted User wrote: »

Typo, I would vote Yes for medical reasons, Incest and Rape.

The effects you mention from the morning after pill is also associated with Abortions.

however, there is a greater risk of psychological damage with an abortion.

As Nozz says allowing abortion in cases of rape is not workable:
1) Await a conviction for rape. But this might not come. Or it might take way too long.
2) Merely a filed accusation of rape with the Police. This would incentivize false accusations of rape by people who want abortions.
3) Merely take the woman's word for it she was raped: Functionally indistinguishable from abortion on demand.

Deleted User wrote: »

Having lived in the UK I have seen how women use abortions, especially young girls from 16 years of age. For many it is nothing more than a supermarket product they can use whenever they need it.

I have seen young girls abort a child only to have a child 6 months later.

Impossible.

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

You are aware of the medical problems associated with abortions, both physical and mental?

There's issues with every sort of medical procedure, does that mean we should ban them too? Thats a very silly way of looking at things.

This is about choice, this isn't about forcing any women to have an abortion. This is about allowing women in certain situations to have rights and control over their own body's.

SusieBlue

Deleted User wrote: »

Having lived in the UK I have seen how women use abortions, especially young girls from 16 years of age. For many it is nothing more than a supermarket product they can use whenever they need it.

I have seen young girls abort a child only to have a child 6 months later.

I dont want to see Ireland become the next England with morals and decency being replaced with liberal ideals.

Also there is the issue that once the law has been repealed there is nothing stopping any govermnet ujpping the age upwards whenever they want, how long until we are at 24 weeks?

So you don't trust women, and just because a very select few may abuse the system, we won't allow anyone to have it. Right.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Typo, I would vote Yes for medical reasons, Incest and Rape.

The effects you mention from the morning after pill is also associated with Abortions.

however, there is a greater risk of psychological damage with an abortion.

Why are embryos implanted as a result of rape or incest less deserving of life than those implanted as a result of contraception fail?

I'm honestly not buying your concern for women line tbh - do you have any medical qualifications by the way? Are you a psychologist or psychiatrist that you can speak with authority about psychological damage or is it a case that you think women who have had abortions should have psychological damage?

Do you think women in crises pregnancies do not suffer psychological damage?

What about women with children they don't want? Do you think neither woman or children can be psychologically damaged in this scenario?

Or how about the suicidal women forced to seek permission from a panel to get an abortion? Any potential for psychological damaged there?

Ave Sodalis

Deleted User wrote: »

You just don't get an abortion you know, its not a case of popping down to Dunnes and buying a packet of the shelf and job over.

At 12 weeks its also not a case of popping a pill, see here
https://www.pregnancychoicesdirectory.com/peoplesstories/abortion/1196/a-medical-abortion-at-12-weeks

There is also untold psychological damage that the mother can suffer from including depression.

I am shocked that you would prefer people to have an abortion than taking the morning after pill.

Getting the morning after pill isn't a case of popping down to your local chemist and asking for one. They take you into a room on your own to ask you a lot of questions. You cannot get the MAP more than 3 times in your life.

[Deleted User]

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Its already been explained to you that you can't just take the MAP a few times a month.

I see you realise how serious of a procedure abortion is, that's great that you can see that. Do you think women are so stupid they'd just go and get an abortion without weighing up their options?
Do you think they'd rather book in for surgery rather than just use contraceptive?

Do you really think a woman would get an abortion unless she felt she had no other choice?

Your post reeks of wanting to save women from themselves as if they're not capable of making their own informed decisions.

Having lived in the UK I have seen how women use abortions, especially young girls from 16 years of age. For many it is nothing more than a supermarket product they can use whenever they need it.

I have seen young girls abort a child only to have a child 6 months later.

I dont want to see Ireland become the next England with morals and decency being replaced with liberal ideals.

Also there is the issue that once the law has been repealed there is nothing stopping any govermnet ujpping the age upwards whenever they want, how long until we are at 24 weeks?

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

You just don't get an abortion you know, its not a case of popping down to Dunnes and buying a packet of the shelf and job over.

At 12 weeks its also not a case of popping a pill, see here
https://www.pregnancychoicesdirectory.com/peoplesstories/abortion/1196/a-medical-abortion-at-12-weeks

There is also untold psychological damage that the mother can suffer from including depression.

I am shocked that you would prefer people to have an abortion than taking the morning after pill.

Your link refers to a medical abortion. That is not what has been proposed.
before 12 weeks it is popping a pill. and that is what has been proposed. Nobody suggested popping to dunnes. it is done under medical supervision. You would know that if you had a clue what you were talking about.

SusieBlue

Deleted User wrote: »

You just don't get an abortion you know, its not a case of popping down to Dunnes and buying a packet of the shelf and job over.

At 12 weeks its also not a case of popping a pill, see here
https://www.pregnancychoicesdirectory.com/peoplesstories/abortion/1196/a-medical-abortion-at-12-weeks

There is also untold psychological damage that the mother can suffer from including depression.

I am shocked that you would prefer people to have an abortion than taking the morning after pill.

Its already been explained to you that you can't just take the MAP a few times a month.

I see you realise how serious of a procedure abortion is, that's great that you can see that. Do you think women are so stupid they'd just go and get an abortion without weighing up their options?
Do you think they'd rather book in for surgery rather than just use contraceptive?

Do you really think a woman would get an abortion unless she felt she had no other choice?

Your post reeks of wanting to save women from themselves, as if they're not capable of making their own informed decisions.

nozzferrahhtoo

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Honestly, dont know. Maybe this would be part of proposed legislation

Unlikely because there IS no workable system that I can think of. Nor can anyone else I have ever asked. There seems to only be three ways to do it:

1) Await a conviction for rape. But this might not come. Or it might take way too long.
2) Merely a filed accusation of rape with the Police. This would incentivize false accusations of rape by people who want abortions.
3) Merely take the woman's word for it she was raped: Functionally indistinguishable from abortion on demand.

If there is an option 4 I have never yet heard it. Which of the above 3 do you think you would like put into legislation?

Mint Sauce wrote: »

What I mean is the how far the unborn life is developed.

Then we are on the same page so far! That is great.

So what do you think has occurred in week 0-12 upon which to mediate your concerns? I know what I mediate mine on but they do not come online until much later.

Suffice to say if abortion on demand came into Ireland I would personally like to see 16 weeks. But I would not lose a WINK of sleep over 12 or 20.

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Thats the problem, How far can we believe or trust the government?

Enough to believe they have no interest in political suicide. Which even being SEEN to discuss the possibility of a model like, say, Canada would certainly be. I believe heavily in the effects of self-preservation.

I see no reason to think they would have any interest, or benefit from doing anything but adopting something very very close to the recommendations of the assembly.

I distrust government too. But not to the point that I would feel paralyzed from allowing them to do anything at all. Trust is contextual judgement call, not a sweeping denigration.

[Deleted User]

kylith wrote: »

You would vote against abortion for rape, incest, or medical reasons?

Women do not always choose to have sex.

Women do not always have the choice of using contraception, in the cases of rape, for example. Contraception can fail, even when used correctly.

A woman may not realise her contraception has failed until it is too late for the MAP. A woman who has been raped may be too traumatised or in denial and not take the MAP.

Have you ever taken the morning after pill?

Effects include :
nausea
abdominal pain
fatigue
headache
menstrual changes
dizziness
breast tenderness
vomiting

Do you think this is the kind of thing a woman should be taking, perhaps several times a week, in case her contraception fails?

Typo, I would vote Yes for medical reasons, Incest and Rape.

The effects you mention from the morning after pill is also associated with Abortions.

however, there is a greater risk of psychological damage with an abortion.