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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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drkpower

Kurtosis wrote: »

It's of fairly limited relevance when the scenario you describe is not possible under the proposed changes, as well as being incredibly unlikely even if was possible.

It's important to make it clear when a hypothetical is being discussed, otherwise it can easily muddy the waters, especially with the prevailing "voting for uncertainty" and "slippery slope" narratives.

I agree; that's why I used the word hypothetical a few times.

murpho999

Doltanian wrote: »

I never thought I'd see the day that I am supporting Fianna Fail again, well done FG you have hit a fresh low, the lowest you could possible go in the murder and genocide of defenceless babies to satisfy the EU paymasters and George Soros.

You really should look up the meaning of the word genocide.

Have you not noticed that there are still plenty of people existing in countries that permit abortion?

Kurtosis

drkpower wrote: »

Sorry to distract you. It's an interesting aside of some passing relevance. You don't have to engage with it.

It's of fairly limited relevance when the scenario you describe is not possible under the proposed changes, as well as being incredibly unlikely even if was possible.

It's important to make it clear when a hypothetical is being discussed, otherwise it can easily muddy the waters, especially with the prevailing "voting for uncertainty" and "slippery slope" narratives.

baylah17

Doltanian wrote: »

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All those women marching in support of Repeal are EU Paymasters?!?!?! :eek:

Wait a second... that makes me an EU Paymaster....

#mindblown.

What about the babies themselves

They are not babies just feotuses

murpho999

Doltanian wrote: »

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

At least you're pro democracy and will respect the result I hope.

I don't get why people want children born to people who are capable at the time to offer the love and support it needs.

Or to neglect the needs of the pregnant lady both mentally and physically.

I strongly believe that abortion is a highly personal choice of the woman who will be going through a highly difficult and personal crisis of which you or I have no real right to say that she should be denied the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

dudara

Doltanian wrote: »

And has no support from his party, Fianna Fail need to pull the plug on this charade excuse of a Government immediately to prevent a referendum taking place.

Why are you worried about a referendum taking place?

Go out there, campaign, do your best to convince others of your perspective. Then let the people vote. It's going to be close, no doubt about it, but at least we will find out the will of the people, one way or the other.

uptherebels

Doltanian wrote: »

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

you left out anti democratic

swampgas

Doltanian wrote: »

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

Pinochet? Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#Human_rights_violations

Bannasidhe

Doltanian wrote: »

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

Ah. You are one of those.

It's like there is a rip in the fabric of time and the 1930s are leaking through.

Doltanian

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All those women marching in support of Repeal are EU Paymasters?!?!?! :eek:

Wait a second... that makes me an EU Paymaster....

#mindblown.

What about the babies themselves, they are too young and unable to march themselves, as a Conservative, Anti-EU, Anti-Feminst, Pro-Trump, Anti-Marxist I will vote against Abortion. Yes to killing babies but no to killing pedophiles and murderers. Leftwing politics is the biggest cancer on society and we badly need another Thatcher or Pinochet in this country to crush the left finally.

david75

swampgas wrote: »

I don't know if you were around in the 80's when the 8th Amendment was introduced. It was a very different Ireland to the one we see today. There was a genuine panic among some that a Roe vs. Wade judgement could introduce abortion to Ireland. There was a propaganda campaign that you had to have been there to believe. The people were subject to a barrage of the most hateful, wrong, and deceitful propoganda, in a country still in thrall to bishops and priests. It was a grim time, to be honest.

There was no intention to respect the will of the people. The idea was to terrify and brainwash and intimidate a constitional bar on abortion, to slow down the inevitable, as the Irish people became more educated, modern and liberal.

Same BS tactics still work. Fear lies intimidation etc.
Lisbon II

Bannasidhe

Doltanian wrote: »

And has no support from his party, Fianna Fail need to pull the plug on this charade excuse of a Government immediately to prevent a referendum taking place.

I know! Imagine putting something to the electorate to decide.
The utter b*rstards!

Bring down the Government before allowing the people to decide what's i the Constitution! as a campaign slogan it needs work tbh.

swampgas

ForestFire wrote: »

Was it not a democratically elected government and the peoples vote that put it in? And nothing stopped any governments from having a vote anytime to change/remove anytime they wanted, they want just like now.

Again as per further post I'm not asking about the rights or wrongs but how you think this might affect the result?

I don't know if you were around in the 80's when the 8th Amendment was introduced. It was a very different Ireland to the one we see today. There was a genuine panic among some that a Roe vs. Wade judgement could introduce abortion to Ireland. There was a propaganda campaign that you had to have been there to believe. The people were subject to a barrage of the most hateful, wrong, and deceitful propoganda, in a country still in thrall to bishops and priests. It was a grim time, to be honest.

There was no intention to respect the will of the people. The idea was to terrify and brainwash and intimidate a constitional bar on abortion, to slow down the inevitable, as the Irish people became more educated, modern and liberal.

ohnonotgmail

Doltanian wrote: »

And has no support from his party, Fianna Fail need to pull the plug on this charade excuse of a Government immediately to prevent a referendum taking place.

Really? you base that on what?

Bannasidhe

Doltanian wrote: »

I never thought I'd see the day that I am supporting Fianna Fail again, well done FG you have hit a fresh low, the lowest you could possible go in the murder and genocide of defenceless babies to satisfy the EU paymasters and George Soros.

All those women marching in support of Repeal are EU Paymasters?!?!?! :eek:

Wait a second... that makes me an EU Paymaster....

#mindblown.

Doltanian

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

LOL. you realise that Michael Martin has come out in support of repeal?

And has no support from his party, Fianna Fail need to pull the plug on this charade excuse of a Government immediately to prevent a referendum taking place.

Bannasidhe

ForestFire wrote: »

Okay its the same difference, it being replaced with what exactly I said in my first post.

The government will decide now, and at any point in the future what the rules are.

Are you happy this will not affect the result? Sway the way some people might vote?

It is the job of government to decide.

They are the ones changed with creating legislation by the Constitution. If the people are not happy with a piece of legislation they can make that known and there are various avenues open to having that legislation withdrawn/changed, or repealed *coff coff water charges*.

Having the 8th in the Constitution prevents government doing it's job and that is exactly what it was designed to do - there was absolutely no legislation on the horizon in the early 80s to legalise abortion. No even a scintilla of a mention of legalising abortion.

If people feel they can't trust the government then that says a lot about electoral choices not the Constitution.

ohnonotgmail

Doltanian wrote: »

I never thought I'd see the day that I am supporting Fianna Fail again, well done FG you have hit a fresh low, the lowest you could possible go in the murder and genocide of defenceless babies to satisfy the EU paymasters and George Soros.

LOL. you realise that Michael Martin has come out in support of repeal?

Doltanian

I never thought I'd see the day that I am supporting Fianna Fail again, well done FG you have hit a fresh low, the lowest you could possible go in the murder and genocide of defenceless babies to satisfy the EU paymasters and George Soros.

pitifulgod

eviltwin wrote: »

Still waiting...

Referendum at the end of May is plan anyway.

eviltwin

Lia_lia wrote: »

Has it started yet? Nothing on News Now...

Still waiting...

[Deleted User]

eviltwin wrote: »

Press conference at 10, we will know all then. It's being broadcast live on YouTube for anyone interested

Has it started yet? Nothing on News Now...

pitifulgod

ForestFire wrote: »

There is a very important thing called the constitution.
Do you not think we need it?

The alternative was clear so not sure why you brought the Pope into it?

ForestFire wrote: »

Any presiding government can at anytime clarify and/or hold a new referendum to clarify/modify or remove, it if it is really necessary.

So the will of the government and people cannot just be ignored

But you missing the point, I am not asking about how you or I feel on the abortion topic.

I am asking do you think if will affect the general population and result?

Are you happy that the question will be asked to the public to just remove the 8th amendment without replacing it with anything?

And again this is not what you or I would like, but what you think could have an affect on the result.

In 1983, numerous people including Mary Robinson highlighted how it was incorrect to have anything like the 8th amendment as it would lead to pretty horrible scenarios which it did. Hardcoded endless detail into the constitution and removing any ability to amend any legislation in the future is chaotic.

If the public are dissatisfied with the government, that affects them in the polls. Unless you propose we hardcode any legislation that could be interpreted as related to morals to be put directly into it? You can imply morality with a lot of things that we legislate for.

ohnonotgmail

ForestFire wrote: »

Okay its the same difference, it being replaced with what exactly I said in my first post.

The government will decide now, and at any point in the future what the rules are.

Are you happy this will not affect the result? Sway the way some people might vote?

i will repeat my previous post

The important thing is that people know what they are voting on. If the proposed legislation is clear i dont see an issue. I cant see any future governments touching it with a bargepole for a long time.

ForestFire

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so it is not being replaced with nothing. I dont see what your confusion is?

Okay its the same difference, it being replaced with what exactly I said in my first post.

The government will decide now, and at any point in the future what the rules are.

Are you happy this will not affect the result? Sway the way some people might vote?

eviltwin

Press conference at 10, we will know all then. It's being broadcast live on YouTube for anyone interested

ohnonotgmail

ForestFire wrote: »

What is being proposed then?

RTE
"Senior sources say the Cabinet has also agreed that the Referendum Bill should include wording to repeal the Eighth Amendment and also wording to be added into the constitution to enable to Oireachtas to legislate on this matter."

so it is not being replaced with nothing. I dont see what your confusion is?

ForestFire

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that is not what is being proposed

What is being proposed then?

RTE
"Senior sources say the Cabinet has also agreed that the Referendum Bill should include wording to repeal the Eighth Amendment and also wording to be added into the constitution to enable to Oireachtas to legislate on this matter."

ohnonotgmail

ForestFire wrote: »

Was it not a democratically elected government and the peoples vote that put it in? And nothing stopped any governments from having a vote anytime to change/remove anytime they wanted, they want just like now.

Again as per further post I'm not asking about the rights or wrongs but how you think this might affect the result?

The important thing is that people know what they are voting on. If the proposed legislation is clear i dont see an issue. I cant see any future governments touching it with a bargepole for a long time.

ForestFire

swampgas wrote: »

The 8th amendment was actually put in place to prevent democratically elected governments legalising abortion.

Was it not a democratically elected government and the peoples vote that put it in? And nothing stopped any governments from having a vote anytime to change/remove anytime they wanted, they want just like now.

Again as per further post I'm not asking about the rights or wrongs but how you think this might affect the result?