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The Kerry Babies Case

irishguitarlad

What do you think of it? As the son of an Abbeydorney woman I take an interest in it as I kept on hearing about it growing up. I reckon the gardaí were covering up for someone when they blamed Joanna Hayes. Anyways, what's your opinion?

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Galwayguy35

I'm amazed at the amount of idiots in the comments section of articles I've seen about this case suggesting it's a waste of resources and money re opening the investigation and the guards shouldn't bother because it was 34 years ago.

The fellas looking into this case back then were totally incompetent but I've a bit more faith in the people doing the investigation now.

[Deleted User]

Odhinn wrote: »

And that of others that have looked at the case. But all is well, because your alternative explanation is.................?

You SAY that but offer no evidence. you have presented NOTHING.

Me? I don't have an explaination because I don't know. I'm not just going to make stuff up but, so I ask the question.

Wombatman

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The fellas looking into this case back then were totally incompetent but I've a bit more faith in the people doing the investigation now.

Why have more faith now? AGS has been reveled to be corrupt, incompetent and under resourced in the last year. Moral is at an all time low. Leadership arrogant and incapable of accountability.

tayto lover

Wombatman wrote: »

Why have more faith now? AGS has been reveled to be corrupt, incompetent and under resourced in the last year. Moral is at an all time low. Leadership arrogant and incapable of accountability.

The vast percentage of them have not been revealed to be corrupt or incompetent.
I still have great faith in the men on the ground from my dealings with them.
I prefer to call out the wrong doers rather than the entire organisation.
Two of them were murdered, shot dead quite close to where i live, in the last few years for doing their jobs. They weren't corrupt or incompetent.

Wombatman

tayto lover wrote: »

The vast percentage of them have not been revealed to be corrupt or incompetent.
I still have great faith in the men on the ground from my dealings with them.
I prefer to call out the wrong doers rather than the entire organisation.
Two of them were murdered, shot dead quite close to where i live, in the last few years for doing their jobs. They weren't corrupt or incompetent.

It's always tragic when frontline workers get injured or killed. However, without wanting to sound callous and heartless, this has no bearing on weather or not they were corrupt or incompetent. You don't know.

What we do know is that breath tests and traffic convictions were falsified all over the country. Guards were involved at all levels. This wasn't just incompetence, it was fraud. Again nobody will be disciplined or held to account.

I'm not talking about individual guards, I'm talking about an organization with a rotten culture, that has an influence on it members actions. Does AGS serve us better AGS better than it did in 1984? I wouldn't be overly confident is all.

[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

The vast percentage of them have not been revealed to be corrupt or incompetent.
I still have great faith in the men on the ground from my dealings with them.
I prefer to call out the wrong doers rather than the entire organisation.
Two of them were murdered, shot dead quite close to where i live, in the last few years for doing their jobs. They weren't corrupt or incompetent.

Really? A guy who was out having been done for importing guns etc. had a gun, hundreds of rounds of ammunition and petrol and a lone, unarmed officer went out to him. There's huge incompetence somewhere along there. Just to be clear, as far as I know the guy who was killed was let down mostly by colleagues rather than any of his own actions.
In the other case they still haven't done anyone. If they can't manage to get someone for killing one of their own then it doesn't inspire confidence.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? A guy who was out having been done for importing guns etc. had a gun, hundreds of rounds of ammunition and petrol and a lone, unarmed officer went out to him. There's huge incompetence somewhere along there. Just to be clear, as far as I know the guy who was killed was let down mostly by colleagues rather than any of his own actions.
In the other case they still haven't done anyone. If they can't manage to get someone for killing one of their own then it doesn't inspire confidence.

That's my point. A lone unarmed officer went out to him because he was not informed by senior garda. That does not mean that he was corrupt or incompetent. He was let down by the people who were using the murderer. Maybe they were after bigger things too and doing their best. It was all tragic.

In the other case it seems they know the killers and are just connecting the dots. One of them is in prison already so they know where he is.

It's easy to be the hurler on the ditch.

[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

That's my point. A lone unarmed officer went out to him because he was not informed by senior garda. That does not mean that he was corrupt or incompetent. He was let down by the people who were using the murderer. Maybe they were after bigger things too and doing their best. It was all tragic.

In the other case it seems they know the killers and are just connecting the dots. One of them is in prison already so they know where he is.

It's easy to be the hurler on the ditch.

Am I right in thinking that no-one told him that there was someone in his area on bail for arms importation? And I believe they originally went to Dundalk (a "main" station) and were told to go to the small station? There's a huge amount of incompetence involved.
For the other care it's been going on ridiculously long time. If they had the evidence (not sure how much more they'll get at this stage) could they not have charges ready and get the suspects extradited?

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

You SAY that but offer no evidence. you have presented NOTHING.

Me? I don't have an explaination because I don't know. I'm not just going to make stuff up but, so I ask the question.

So when asked a question you automatically stick your hands in the air, say "I don'gtknow" and let things roll on. Thats probably part of the reason she had to wait 34 years for an apology.

pilly

Snickers Man wrote:

The surviving policemen owe that family an apology for what they did to them. Even now.

And yet O'Carroll still believes she had fcuking twins!

tringle

sunbeam wrote: »

I had to google this but the legal concept of 'illegitimacy' was not abolished in Ireland until 1986:

http://www.rte.ie/archives/2016/0511/787763-illegitimacy-bill/

I was an 18 year old unmarried mother and my daughter was one of the first born out of wedlock not be be classed as illegitimate. I lived in Dublin which was slightly more open about single parents but still had a major struggle not to be shipped off for an abortion or rushed into a marriage.
The Kerry babies and Ann Lovett cases where very clearly in my mind at the time. I was the first participant in a longtitudanal survey by the maternity hospital to improve things for unmarried mother's and I remember them being very protective of me. However rural attitudes hadn't changed and my daughters best friend at school was born the same week in a shed on the family farm, her 16 year old mother was in labour all night and arrived home and said she found a baby.
Christy Moore has a very poignant song about the Ann Lovett case and I can't listen to it without crying

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s8VoEE_NL00

As for burying the still born baby, there are old churches with a lot of stillborn babies buried in them. They couldn't be buried in graveyards if they hadn't been baptised and parents would go out at night to old church ruins feeling it was still consecrated land.

My thoughts with the families of both babies this week.

ohnonotgmail

pilly wrote: »

And yet O'Carroll still believes she had fcuking twins!

O'Carroll doesn't believe that the recent DNA evidence is correct. Probably because it shows that he was wrong all along. He wants the bodies exhumed and a british lab to run the tests again.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that no-one told him that there was someone in his area on bail for arms importation? And I believe they originally went to Dundalk (a "main" station) and were told to go to the small station? There's a huge amount of incompetence involved.
For the other care it's been going on ridiculously long time. If they had the evidence (not sure how much more they'll get at this stage) could they not have charges ready and get the suspects extradited?

I don't know what he was told or not told. I saw a Prime Time programme about it and they didn't think he was told anything about the murderer. They went to Dundalk but would have had to go to Omeath area anyway because that's where she lived with him.
In the second case Talkofthetown said the Garda expected to charge people soon. I'd say that they will only get one chance at it and it has to be right or it won't succeed.

[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know what he was told or not told. I saw a Prime Time programme about it and they didn't think he was told anything about the murderer. They went to Dundalk but would have had to go to Omeath area anyway because that's where she lived with him.
In the second case Talkofthetown said the Garda expected to charge people soon. I'd say that they will only get one chance at it and it has to be right or it won't succeed.

Someone who was on bail for terrorist offences was paid a visit by a lone, un-armed Garda. If there's not massive incompetence somewhere there I just don't know what to say.

Kerrydude1981

What I found strange was Baby John's headstone been smashed up back in 2004 just as it was coming up to what would have been his 20th birthday,was it just vandals and why did they pick out that grave of all the graves in the graveyard

Good piece here about it

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/what-now-in-the-hunt-for-baby-johns-killer-36512195.html

_Dara_

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

What I found strange was Baby John's headstone been smashed up back in 2004 just as it was coming up to what would have been his 20th birthday,was it just vandals and why did they pick out that grave of all the graves in the graveyard

Good piece here about it

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/what-now-in-the-hunt-for-baby-johns-killer-36512195.html

What kind of lowlife would smash his grave? :mad: He is the innocent party here.

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volchitsa

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I must have missed that, how do we know he/she is now dead? Doesnt that imply knowing who killed him?

Though personally I dont believe that someone who killed a newborn baby would have been motivated by the sort of personal hatred that would make them then destroy the grave. I think something else is going on there, and that it may not be the killer of the baby at all. Assuming he was killed, as I said before.

Just speculating of course, but I dont think infanticide is motivated by personal hatred, and I think destruction of a grave is a symbolic act that is probably a very different act from infanticide.

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Ash.J.Williams

When people act like Iran is a backward religious kip I cringe a little because we were the same not so long ago. we didn't execute people, but we drove them to suicide.

Hotblack Desiato

Or just put them into one or other kind of "home".

We used to have the highest psychiatric incarceration rate in the world.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone who was on bail for terrorist offences was paid a visit by a lone, un-armed Garda. If there's not massive incompetence somewhere there I just don't know what to say.

I'm sure it happens all the time. What if he was the only garda on a beat and he had a run in with the same guy?
They don't seem to have the resources or the time to wait for reinforcements.
It's easy to be wiser after the event but when you have to face it then different logic is to the fore, as I said there's a lot of hurlers on the ditch.

[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm sure it happens all the time. What if he was the only garda on a beat and he had a run in with the same guy?
They don't seem to have the resources or the time to wait for reinforcements.
It's easy to be wiser after the event but when you have to face it then different logic is to the fore, as I said there's a lot of hurlers on the ditch.

And there's a lot who will defend absolutely anything when it goes against what they think.
The guy was on bail for terrorism offences. He was known to have had guns. If he isn't on every Garda within 15 miles' radar then there's something massively, massively wrong with how the Gardai operate. I knew who he was and I never met him nor any of his family. But I can pay attention to what happens around me.

Hotblack Desiato

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The guy was on bail for terrorism offences. He was known to have had guns.

The judge who gave him bail is the bigger problem tbh.

julyjane

volchitsa wrote: »

I must have missed that, how do we know he/she is now dead? Doesnt that imply knowing who killed him?

Though personally I dont believe that someone who killed a newborn baby would have been motivated by the sort of personal hatred that would make them then destroy the grave. I think something else is going on there, and that it may not be the killer of the baby at all. Assuming he was killed, as I said before.

Just speculating of course, but I dont think infanticide is motivated by personal hatred, and I think destruction of a grave is a symbolic act that is probably a very different act from infanticide.

Infanticide has been happening for millennia, thankfully rare but there are cases in history of newborn babies being killed at or shortly after birth (possibly due to poverty/shame/postpartum psychosis etc.) It was usually done by something not very violent such as smothering. 28 stab wounds, I find it hard to believe a mother could do that. The only other case I heard of a baby being stabbed was in the Dalkey house of horrors.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

And there's a lot who will defend absolutely anything when it goes against what they think.
The guy was on bail for terrorism offences. He was known to have had guns. If he isn't on every Garda within 15 miles' radar then there's something massively, massively wrong with how the Gardai operate. I knew who he was and I never met him nor any of his family. But I can pay attention to what happens around me.

Good for you then.
Nobody seemed to know he had a gun in the house, even her.
If the girl asked the garda to go to the house with her to get her clothes and he refused because he was on his own there would be loads saying "what a coward, he shouldn't be a garda".
It doesn't matter what they do as they can't win for losing it seems.

Ash.J.Williams

julyjane wrote: »

Infanticide has been happening for millennia, thankfully rare but there are cases in history of newborn babies being killed at or shortly after birth (possibly due to poverty/shame/postpartum psychosis etc.) It was usually done by something not very violent such as smothering. 28 stab wounds, I find it hard to believe a mother could do that. The only other case I heard of a baby being stabbed was in the Dalkey house of horrors.

there's a house of horrors case in DunLaoghaire where a baby was born and the granny stabbed him/her to death with knitting needles. I believe there was a paedo ring involving a garda cover up there too.

[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

Good for you then.
Nobody seemed to know he had a gun in the house, even her.
If the girl asked the garda to go to the house with her to get her clothes and he refused because he was on his own there would be loads saying "what a coward, he shouldn't be a garda".
It doesn't matter what they do as they can't win for losing it seems.

No there wouldn't. Not for a known gun importer, terrorist, attempted murderer and viewer of child pornography.
Seriously, someone like that should be extremely well-known to every Garda around. The ****ing FBI were investigating him at one stage FFS.

julyjane

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

there's a house of horrors case in DunLaoghaire where a baby was born and the granny stabbed him/her to death with knitting needles. I believe there was a paedo ring involving a garda cover up there too.

Yes that's the one I was referring to. Dalkey/Dun Laoighre I'm not sure which

Odhinn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Or just put them into one or other kind of "home".

We used to have the highest psychiatric incarceration rate in the world.

"Father Feely interfered with me!"
"A priest thats a pervert? Ye must be mad"