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Child Item

The Kerry Babies Case

irishguitarlad

What do you think of it? As the son of an Abbeydorney woman I take an interest in it as I kept on hearing about it growing up. I reckon the gardaí were covering up for someone when they blamed Joanna Hayes. Anyways, what's your opinion?

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splinter65

In 1978 when I was 13, I clearly recall my 11 year old brother sitting up to the Sunday dinner table to announce that his friends 19 year old sister was having a baby.
An argument quickly ensued between us because I absolutely knew that she simply couldn’t be pregnant because you can’t physically become pregnant unless you are married.
And my poor mortified mother trying to shut us up.
And on your wedding night you wake up in the morning and you have grown breasts. Overnight. Fact.

pawdee

I wonder where Jeremiah Locke is and what he's up to these days?

Day Lewin

splinter65 wrote: »

And on your wedding night you wake up in the morning and you have grown breasts. Overnight. Fact.

The poet Ovid mentioned that bit of folklore - even way back in Ancient Rome...
the theory that when a girl has sex for the first time her breasts are slightly larger the next morning.

-- never thought of testing it!

Ralf and Florian

goose2005 wrote: »

What? We have no idea how or why the Cahirsiveen baby was murdered / died

How yes. Stabbed nearly 30 times. Why is not so clear.

brooke 2

Laois_Man wrote: »

Really, all this hullabaloo over an apolagy - I get the distinct feeling that Joanne Hayes would rather have done without any apolagy than it be all over the news again.

I also see in the news this morning, Gerry O'Carroll, one of the original investigating detectives, in an interview with The Kerryman newspaper this week, is still not accepting the DNA results, wants the bodies of both babies exhumed and further DNA profiling carried out by a foreign police force and only then will he accept that Joanne Hayes is not the mother of birth babies. Absolute tool-bag!

She agreed to accept the apology if she could be left in peace.

It appears that Gerry Carroll is the only one who is persisting with the ridiculous twins theory. Wouldn't you think he would just shut up at this
stage and stop making a fool out of himself? :mad:

brooke 2

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

She said the baby was stillborn. Harbison did not arrive at any definite conclusion, IIRC.

brooke 2

splinter65 wrote: »

Even today when approached by The Kerryman, even in the face of the DNA results he insists that he is right, that J Hayes was the mother of twins by 2 different married men and that she is the mother of stabbed baby John.
He wants Scotland Yard to investigate.

He is a deluded fool.

brooke 2

mariaalice wrote: »

That retired Garda who still believes she was the mother of the two babies despite all the evidence to the contrary what on earth is going on there he is completely delusional.

I honestly don't know why anybody even listens to him. Everybody knows at this stage that he sounds like a crackpot. :mad:

brooke 2

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

In any other country that fcuking headcase would be now stripped of his pension and jailed over his behaviour

Absolutely!

iguana

Deleted User wrote: »

Joanne’s baby was stillborn.

Joanne's baby was stillborn, which is something that can still happen today even with the best healthcare possible. However if Joanne's second pregnancy had happened during an era where unmarried pregnancy is mostly unremarkable, she would almost certainly have availed of medical care all the way through. If the baby had a heart defect, if he was breach or back to back and became immobile during second stage labour, if his cord was wrapped around his neck, if he swallowed meconium and went into distress, Joanne's medical care providers would have had a good chance of realising there was a problem and been able to take steps to save him. We don't know that he would have definitely survived in a more liberal society but we do know that there are numerous potential causes of stillbirth that, even in the mid-80s, would have been preventable if she was under the care of a midwife and/or hospital. But the world she lived in, heavily influenced by the church, made her feel unable to avail of that care. So in all likelihood the RCC has the blood of baby Hayes on it's (metaphorical) hands.

evolving_doors

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I presume it was like having a miscarriage back in that day or if the baby dies in birth or before being baptised. It couldn't be buried in consecrated ground and the mother had to be 'cleansed' by the priest.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/they-buried-our-baby-for-5-and-nothing-more-was-said-1.561034
probably wasn't that uncommon for babies to be buried 'elsewhere' back in those days (Tuam mass grave and all that too!)

brooke 2

Summer wind wrote: »

There was obviously a tremendous rage in whoever killed poor little baby John. How could anybody hate a little baby so much. I couldn't even imagine it. Such a very sad case.

Also, he was a few days old, which very likely means that more people than the mother knew about the birth. I read a theory elsewhere that the baby may have been born of incest and the family member responsible for the pregnancy may have stabbed the child. The viciousness of the killing is shocking - somebody clearly was in an uncontrollable frenzy while he/she was stabbing that baby.

brooke 2

Day Lewin wrote: »

The main purpose of the investigation was to find out who committed the brutal murder of the baby found on a beach.
Keep yer eyes on the prize.
This would have been true in any country of the world.
Glib soundbite blamings of "Irishness" "the church" the state" etc are only distracting clichés.

The guards naturally looked for someone who had recently given birth with no child to show for it, and they found one: naturally they had to look into that: it would have been grossly negligent NOT to.

They should then have dropped that angle when it clearly wasn't her.

We don't actually know what direction the investigation took subsequently - if they looked in every county hospital in Ireland, every GP, every gossipy neighbour etc etc;

Unfortunately it looks as if having found a nearly-fit, they insisted on stopping there and cramming it on, trying to make it fit.
Did they ever really look elsewhere after that?

We can speculate about the first baby - the murdered one - I would guess incest, and a guilty parent: but it's only a guess.

The incest theory is quite credible, imo.

sunbeam

splinter65 wrote: »

I was 19 in a rural town in Ireland in 1984.
The first female chemist opened a pharmacy in the town and put a display of Durex condoms on the counter. She was also the first divorced person anyone had ever met.
Within weeks all the other chemists were selling condoms, they just didn’t display them .
I did my LC in 1982. Two girls got pregnant in 5th year. Both took a year out. Both returned with their babies, and went back to school, an all girls school.
Unbelievably, they came back and the pregnancies were never mentioned.
There was as much sex going on then as there is now.
I had plenty of sex.
One later gave her baby up for adoption under pressure from her mother who insisted that she’d never get a husband, a fate worse then death.
Everyone went to mass, automatically , every Sunday.
That summer was lovely and sunny, the music was great, good times.

I was 11 in rural Ireland in 1984. While unmarried girls and women were increasingly keeping their babies, there was still that awful stigma of 'illegitimacy'. I have a number of relatives that were pushed into marriage because of pregnancy from that era-one had barely turned 17 on her wedding day.

I remember after the Ann Lovett case Brian Farrell appealing at the end of Today Tonight to anyone who was in the same position not to be afraid to ask for help. I'm not sure what help would have been there for them-so much depended on how supportive ones family were.

And yes, it would have been absolutely unthinkable to miss mass...

One eyed Jack

I was 7 in 1984, also living in rural Ireland and growing up in what would have been described nowadays as a fundamentalist Catholic upbringing. One of my outstanding memories of that time was my older sisters admirably rebellious streak, she was just going on 14 and she used to parade around the house singing this at the top of her lungs, much to my parents annoyance -

Of course the shìt really hit the fan two years later when this came out -

As Madonna said herself of the song -

Madonna debuted a rather unglamorous, tomboy look for her 1986 "Papa Don't Preach" video. It fit nicely with the song's serious subject matter: a pregnant young woman confronting her father. Many in the pro-life movement saw the song as a new anthem because Madonna repeatedly states her intention to keep her baby.

"There were so many opinions," she told Rolling Stone in 2009. "That's why I thought it was so great. Is she for 'schma-smortion,' as they say in Knocked Up? Is she against abortion?" Madonna never quite gave an answer, though she did explain why the song appealed to her. "It just fit right in with my own personal zeitgeist of standing up to male authorities," she said, "whether it's the pope or the Catholic Church or my father and his conservative, patriarchal ways."

Source: Rolling Stone, 2009

Point being I guess that Ireland at the time even in the 80's wasn't this "ignorant backwater where everyone was under the control of the RCC" as it's often made out to be here on Boards. Society was much more nuanced than that, and of course there were plenty back then who thought they were the height of sophistication and grace and piety with the facade they put on for the neighbours, but the reality behind closed doors was far different.

I still see so much of it in Irish society today - "Oh we're not like them", and all I think in my head is "Mate you're exactly like the people you're passing judgement upon, right down to your attitude towards other people who aren't you". Some people still like to think it was the RCC were responsible for the judgemental finger-pointing attitudes back then, but the RCC were only representative of Irish society then. What's their excuse today?

Electric Sheep

skylight1987 wrote: »

this lady illegally buried her baby on her land .she wouldn't even give him the decency of a proper burial. didn't even register a name .yes she was wronged by the gardai in relation to the other baby but what she did to her own flesh and blood was cruel .no one bothers to mention this now though .the only people I feel sorry for are both babies .

33 years later the witch hunt persists.

twowheelsonly

Aineoil wrote: »

Joanne had an affair with Jerry Locke, a married man. She got pregnant and gave birth to the baby on the family farm. The family buried the baby on the farm in secret. Not the wisest thing to do. The state pathologist at the time was Dr John Harbison. He couldn't determine the cause of the death of Joanna's baby

Remember this was 1984 when it happened.... very different Ireland than today.
Having an affair with a married man was unthinkable and to have baby out of
wedlock was a scandal that was food for the gossips for months never mind the affair.

brooke 2 wrote: »

She said the baby was stillborn. Harbison did not arrive at any definite conclusion, IIRC.

Despite Harbisons conclusions (or lack of..) Justice Kevin Lynch declared at the Tribunal that Joanna Hayes had strangled her child to stop it from crying and as far as I'm aware he was never pulled up on that either.
IMO the Judges were worse than the RCC at the time. They were the ones that were sending kids off to the industrial schools, often at the behest of the Gardai, yet they seem to have gotten pretty much a free ride over the years.

erica74

I have read the posts from people who were teenagers in the 80s in Ireland. I was 12 in 1999 when my brother got his girlfriend pregnant at the age of 17. This was, coincidentally, in Kerry also. When the baby was born, there was a difficulty getting the baby baptised as my brother and his girlfriend weren't married and were so young. The 2 local priests wouldn't do it so they had to travel to a larger town in order to get her baptised.
That was in 1999, nearly 20 years after this case.

skylight1987

Electric Sheep wrote: »

33 years later the witch hunt persists.

I am giving my personal opinion which I am entitled to do please do not label my comments thank you

Electric Sheep

skylight1987 wrote: »

I am giving my personal opinion which I am entitled to do please do not label my comments thank you

Contact a Mod if you have an issue with my post.

Pawwed Rig

skylight1987 wrote: »

this lady illegally buried her baby on her land .she wouldn't even give him the decency of a proper burial. didn't even register a name .yes she was wronged by the gardai in relation to the other baby but what she did to her own flesh and blood was cruel .no one bothers to mention this now though .the only people I feel sorry for are both babies .

Cruel how?
What is a proper burial and how does it differ from what she did?
What difference does it make to register a name?

Lackey

Aineoil wrote: »

The Kerry Babies and Ann Lovatt - Ireland of 1984, we have nothing to be proud of.

I disagree
The changes in Ireland have been enormous and for that I think WE have a lot to be proud of.
WE seen what happened in our past and changed things dramatically.

BENDYBINN

brooke 2 wrote: »

Also, he was a few days old, which very likely means that more people than the mother knew about the birth. I read a theory elsewhere that the baby may have been born of incest and the family member responsible for the pregnancy may have stabbed the child. The viciousness of the killing is shocking - somebody clearly was in an uncontrollable frenzy while he/she was stabbing that baby.

Or rape?

_Dara_

What a crazy case.

But it’s just so sad about the murdered baby. I was born not long before him.

sunbeam

I had to google this but the legal concept of 'illegitimacy' was not abolished in Ireland until 1986:

http://www.rte.ie/archives/2016/0511/787763-illegitimacy-bill/

Dakota Dan

Electric Sheep wrote: »

33 years later the witch hunt persists.

Except it was 34 years ago.

eviltwin

Lackey wrote: »

I disagree
The changes in Ireland have been enormous and for that I think WE have a lot to be proud of.
WE seen what happened in our past and changed things dramatically.

Took us long enough and don't forget we have our very own Catholic Taliban in the form of groups like Iona who would happily bring us back there.

monty_python

erica74 wrote: »

I think that people need to discuss this case without continuing to mention that lady by name. I think it's appalling that everytime the case is brought up, her name and picture is splashed across the front page of every red top. When she and her family confessed to the murder and later recanted, I have no clear idea why they did that and I'm not going to speculate but the gardai seem satisfied that she and her family had nothing to do with it so her name should be left out of the discussion.

I grew up in Abbeydorney myself and it's a tragic case and what this lady was put through and continues to go through is shocking and disgraceful.

Is she still living in abbydorney??
I happen the local community don't hold any grudge against her (especially the older folks)

padd b1975

monty_python wrote: »

Is she still living in abbydorney??
I happen the local community don't hold any grudge against her (especially the older folks)

She's <snip> so not much sign of a grudge from either the local community or the Catholic Church.

Mod note:No personal information information needs to be posted here.

Thanks in advance,

Buford T. Justice

pilly

padd b1975 wrote: »

She's <snip> so not much sign of a grudge from either the local community or the Catholic Church.

I wish people would stop discussing this lady's private life, she wasn't the mother of Baby John, full stop, case closed, her name doesn't need to be brought up again and again.

She suffered enough. I have my own reservations about her burying her own baby but I also understand they were totally different times.

I listened to a radio interview yesterday about the original tribunal and she was put through hell at that time, sedated at one stage and still made to go back on the stand.