The Kerry Babies Case

irishguitarlad · 18-01-2018 2:26pm #1

What do you think of it? As the son of an Abbeydorney woman I take an interest in it as I kept on hearing about it growing up. I reckon the gardaí were covering up for someone when they blamed Joanna Hayes. Anyways, what's your opinion?

diomed · 18-01-2018 2:28pm

I think the Gardai are very good at solving crimes.
However, their solution is often made up.

Day Lewin · 18-01-2018 2:41pm

The cops have a bad habit of jumping to an assumption, and then refusing to let go of it, whatever the evidence or lack of evidence.
(This wasn't the only crime where that has happened.)

It's hard to know how they "could have" or "should have" investigated this distressing case: but they certainly should have let go of the Ms. Hayes angle once they found the body of her stillborn baby.

I'm still wondering how the existence of Baby no. 1, the murdered one, was kept a secret - no suspicious neighbours, no anxious family? We don't even know where he died...such a tragedy.

18-01-2018 2:42pm

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I reckon the gardaí were covering up for someone when they blamed Joanna Hayes.

But why would they need to blame someone else to cover it up? Wouldn't the obvious thing be to just not find out who killed the child in Cahersiveen? Indeed blaming another would carry the obvious problem that the other person might and will fight it.

I think they just got very locked into an erroneous solution. It is the way investigations by police forces go across the world, they don't have blank canvasses that are coloured in as things proceed, they form conclusions along the way and investigations are then skewed by human nature and the desire to go that way. Ian Bailey, Steven Avery and on and on and on, investigations are not scientific processes but very subjective ones.

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Hector Bellend · 18-01-2018 2:49pm

Another for the list of gardai screw ups.

18-01-2018 2:52pm

Gards job is to put someone behind bars. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who, as long as they get to pat themselves on the back.

irishguitarlad · 18-01-2018 2:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But why would they need to blame someone else to cover it up? Wouldn't the obvious thing be to just not find out who killed the child in Cahersiveen? Indeed blaming another would carry the obvious problem that the other person might and will fight it.

I think they just got very locked into an erroneous solution. It is the way investigations by police forces go across the world, they don't have blank canvasses that are coloured in as things proceed, they form conclusions along the way and investigations are then skewed by human nature and the desire to go that way. Ian Bailey, Steven Avery and on and on and on, investigations are not scientific processes but very subjective ones.

Yeah I think you could be right there O Conor. I see where there is this ex gardaí that keeps saying she was impregnated by two different men at the same time, like this guy is convinced.

Huexotzingo · 18-01-2018 2:56pm

Retired garda believes Joanne Hayes had twins, calls for exhumation

:rolleyes::mad:

Harry Palmr · 18-01-2018 3:11pm

Mindboggling case - blood types don't match, Hayes lived 50 miles away, Gardai citing the likelihood of pregnant simultaneously by two different men. Imagine if that were true (very rare occurrence) to suggest Hayes would travel the length of the county to kill one of two babies and dispose of it there is just nuts. No DNA work done so the whole thing relied on a clearly unreliable "confession".

18-01-2018 3:13pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Mindboggling case - blood types don't match, Hayes lived 50 miles away, Gardai citing the likelihood of pregnant simultaneously by two different men. Imagine if that were true (very rare occurrence) to suggest Hayes would travel the length of the county to kill one of two babies and dispose of it there is just nuts. No DNA work done so the whole thing relied on a clearly unreliable "confession".

I think the suggestion was the Cahersiveen child was washed in by tides and was thrown into the sea in Kerryhead, much nearer Abbeydorney.

Still doesn't make sense why someone would use 2 different methods to dispose of the bodies.

Laois_Man · 18-01-2018 3:18pm

Really, all this hullabaloo over an apolagy - I get the distinct feeling that Joanne Hayes would rather have done without any apolagy than it be all over the news again.

I also see in the news this morning, Gerry O'Carroll, one of the original investigating detectives, in an interview with The Kerryman newspaper this week, is still not accepting the DNA results, wants the bodies of both babies exhumed and further DNA profiling carried out by a foreign police force and only then will he accept that Joanne Hayes is not the mother of birth babies. Absolute tool-bag!

padd b1975 · 18-01-2018 3:24pm

Laois_Man wrote: »

Really, all this hullabaloo over an apolagy - I get the distinct feeling that Joanne Hayes would rather have done without any apolagy than it be all over the news again.

I also see in the news this morning, Gerry O'Carroll, one of the original investigating detectives, in an interview with The Kerryman newspaper this week, is still not accepting the DNA results, wants the bodies of both babies exhumed and further DNA profiling carried out by a foreign police force and only then will he accept that Joanne Hayes is not the mother of birth babies. Absolute tool-bag!

Dig up Gerry!

vicwatson · 18-01-2018 3:38pm

I want to hear RTE’s lovechild Gerry O’Carrolls version of events

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Odhinn · 18-01-2018 3:49pm

irishguitarlad wrote: »

What do you think of it? As the son of an Abbeydorney woman I take an interest in it as I kept on hearing about it growing up. I reckon the gardaí were covering up for someone when they blamed Joanna Hayes. Anyways, what's your opinion?

I doubt there was a cover-up of an infanticide. There was a cover-up of garda brutality, however, as is quite obvious from the tribunal, which was a disgrace on any number of levels.

Odhinn · 18-01-2018 3:51pm

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After being falsely accused of murder, beaten and intimidated by gardai, then torn apart in front of the whole nation in a tribunal that was supposed to be investigating gardai, I think they might have said she'd suffered enough.

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splinter65 · 18-01-2018 4:08pm

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Yeah I think you could be right there O Conor. I see where there is this ex gardaí that keeps saying she was impregnated by two different men at the same time, like this guy is convinced.

Even today when approached by The Kerryman, even in the face of the DNA results he insists that he is right, that J Hayes was the mother of twins by 2 different married men and that she is the mother of stabbed baby John.
He wants Scotland Yard to investigate.

Your Face · 18-01-2018 4:10pm

irishguitarlad wrote: »

What do you think of it?

Its great - I love it.

I get to have a go at the Gardai, the judiciary, Irish society and also get to make a not-so-sly dig at the Catholic Church. I might even be able to crowbar in a contentious abortion debate.

All while showing off my ostensibly liberal ideals whilst tellingly failing to acknowledge the murder of newborn children.

I f--king love it.

BENDYBINN · 18-01-2018 4:29pm

Both babies murdered by society’s foolish following of Catholic Church at the time.
Let it go.....we are all guilty.

Dakota Dan · 18-01-2018 4:42pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Both babies murdered by society’s foolish following of Catholic Church at the time.
Let it go.....we are all guilty.

So whoever followed the Catholic Church at the time are all guilty of a crime they didn't commit.

Odhinn · 18-01-2018 5:27pm

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It was related, as they refused to investigate when she said she had buried her own baby on the farm. Also - how could you possibly have a fair trial after all that?

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18-01-2018 5:41pm

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Both babies murdered by society’s foolish following of Catholic Church at the time.
Let it go.....we are all guilty.

Joanne’s baby was stillborn.

Odhinn · 18-01-2018 5:51pm

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There are laws around burial. Can you imagine a penalty being imposed that was worse than what she suffered?

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Odhinn · 18-01-2018 6:03pm

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...thus applying law but not justice.

Pawwed Rig · 18-01-2018 6:06pm

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It is hardly the worst crime ever and probably happens more often that you would think (at that period anyway where single mothers were spat upon).
The sentence for a 'crime' like that would be minimal even if anyone would prosecute the case.

Baby John on the other hand was murdered.

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erica74 · 18-01-2018 6:16pm

I think that people need to discuss this case without continuing to mention that lady by name. I think it's appalling that everytime the case is brought up, her name and picture is splashed across the front page of every red top. When she and her family confessed to the murder and later recanted, I have no clear idea why they did that and I'm not going to speculate but the gardai seem satisfied that she and her family had nothing to do with it so her name should be left out of the discussion.

I grew up in Abbeydorney myself and it's a tragic case and what this lady was put through and continues to go through is shocking and disgraceful.

mariaalice · 18-01-2018 6:42pm

That retired Garda who still believes she was the mother of the two babies despite all the evidence to the contrary what on earth is going on there he is completely delusional.

splinter65 · 18-01-2018 6:53pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That retired Garda who still believes she was the mother of the two babies despite all the evidence to the contrary what on earth is going on there he is completely delusional.

Wants both babies exhumed and Scotland Yard brought in to investigate.
No regard or respect for Ms Hayes.
No respect or regard for the remains of either baby.
Just cannot tolerate the idea that he was wrong because as far as he’s concerned he’s never been wrong in his life.
It’s all about him.
Unbearable irishness from beginning to end.

SEPT 23 1989 · 18-01-2018 6:59pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That retired Garda who still believes she was the mother of the two babies despite all the evidence to the contrary what on earth is going on there he is completely delusional.

In any other country that fcuking headcase would be now stripped of his pension and jailed over his behaviour

Laois_Man · 18-01-2018 7:07pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

In any other country that fcuking headcase would be now stripped of his pension and jailed over his behaviour

Why is it listed as low as number 26 on the news section of the RTE website?

Ipso · 18-01-2018 7:11pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Wants both babies exhumed and Scotland Yard brought in to investigate.
No regard or respect for Ms Hayes.
No respect or regard for the remains of either baby.
Just cannot tolerate the idea that he was wrong because as far as he’s concerned he’s never been wrong in his life.
It’s all about him.
Unbearable irishness from beginning to end.

I wonder if it's pure pig sh1t thickness or were they protecting one of our betters.

Odhinn · 18-01-2018 7:25pm

Ipso wrote: »

I wonder if it's pure pig sh1t thickness or were they protecting one of our betters.

It's not impossible, but it seems more thickery than anything else. Had somebody "important" been involved, they would have tried to do a better job of hanging her.

splinter65 · 18-01-2018 7:32pm

Odhinn wrote: »

It's not impossible, but it seems more thickery than anything else. Had somebody "important" been involved, they would have tried to do a better job of hanging her.

The main objective in the investigation from the very start was that no “decent family” man who had been lured into an occasion of sin by the temptress J Hayes, would have his “good name” and that of his family, tarnished by being named in the scandal .
I can garauntee you 100% that neither of the fathers of these 2 babies will ever be revealed.
Make no mistake though, this was the Gardai acting on behalf of the vast majority of the local community.

mariaalice · 18-01-2018 7:37pm

splinter65 wrote: »

The main objective in the investigation from the very start was that no “decent family” man who had been lured into an occasion of sin by the temptress J Hayes, would have his “good name” and that of his family, tarnished by being named in the scandal .
I can garauntee you 100% that neither of the fathers of these 2 babies will ever be revealed.
Make no mistake though, this was the Gardai acting on behalf of the vast majority of the local community.

That is nonsensical the local community were very supportive of her and her family, remember it wasn't local Garda it was the 'murder squad' outsiders

mariaalice · 18-01-2018 7:39pm

Odhinn wrote: »

It's not impossible, but it seems more thickery than anything else. Had somebody "important" been involved, they would have tried to do a better job of hanging her.

Most likely he is arrogant combined with an always right personality its become ingrained in him that he and his colleges were correct and he cant let it go.

RustyNut · 18-01-2018 7:46pm

Two things stand out for me about this.

The first is the mealy mouth apology from the guards. It should have been delivered publicly by the commissioner (acting), not some local kerry lad.

The second is the timing. The guards have been asked since the 90's to do dna analysis in this case but low and behold it all becomes public the week that the dirt is due to be aired at the Charlton Tribunal. Hardly a coincidence, good deflection. As Judge Peter Smithwic found, the most important thing to the guards is to protect the reputation of the guards above all else.

Electric Sheep · 18-01-2018 7:48pm

splinter65 wrote: »

The main objective in the investigation from the very start was that no “decent family” man who had been lured into an occasion of sin by the temptress J Hayes, would have his “good name” and that of his family, tarnished by being named in the scandal .
I can garauntee you 100% that neither of the fathers of these 2 babies will ever be revealed.
Make no mistake though, this was the Gardai acting on behalf of the vast majority of the local community.

The father of Joanne's baby has always been known, he testified at the tribunal. It was never a mystery.

King of Kings · 18-01-2018 7:50pm

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Deleted User wrote: »

Joanne’s baby was stillborn.

the facts are that the family said the baby was stillborn. There is no record because the birth and burial was unorthodox.
No cause of death could be determined by the state pathologist when Joanne's baby was exhumed.

While I appreciate the gardai fcuked her and her family over and that was gravely wrong , it's separate to the fact they buried a baby that went to term on the sly. that is suspicious at least that something was amiss not to mention illegal

King of Kings · 18-01-2018 7:53pm

splinter65 wrote: »

The main objective in the investigation from the very start was that no “decent family” man who had been lured into an occasion of sin by the temptress J Hayes, would have his “good name” and that of his family, tarnished by being named in the scandal .
I can garauntee you 100% that neither of the fathers of these 2 babies will ever be revealed.
Make no mistake though, this was the Gardai acting on behalf of the vast majority of the local community.

You make a great point but it's complete bull**** cos we know the father of J Hayes' child was called Jeremiah Locke .
We've known that since the start.

Otherwise, hats off for a wonderful nonsensical rant

18-01-2018 8:21pm

Huexotzingo wrote: »

Retired garda believes Joanne Hayes had twins, calls for exhumation

:rolleyes::mad:

Gerry O’ Carroll should shut up considering the farce of the previous investigation - how insensitive can you get, even in retirement. :rolleyes:

Odhinn · 18-01-2018 8:26pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Most likely he is arrogant combined with an always right personality its become ingrained in him that he and his colleges were correct and he cant let it go.

The Gardai cannot be wrong -> I am a Garda, therefore....

The word of a garda has unfortunately usually been given the same trust once given to the word of a priest. Nobody seems to get just how dangerous that is, despite it being fairly obvious. He's a symptom of a culture, really.

18-01-2018 8:27pm

erica74 wrote: »

I think that people need to discuss this case without continuing to mention that lady by name. I think it's appalling that everytime the case is brought up, her name and picture is splashed across the front page of every red top. When she and her family confessed to the murder and later recanted, I have no clear idea why they did that and I'm not going to speculate but the gardai seem satisfied that she and her family had nothing to do with it so her name should be left out of the discussion.

I grew up in Abbeydorney myself and it's a tragic case and what this lady was put through and continues to go through is shocking and disgraceful.

It’s a good point. In addition to that, “The Kerry Babies”, while I know is a convenient and well known phrase after 30 years, it should also be dropped in favor of just “Baby John Case”- as that’s what it is now.

Summer wind · 18-01-2018 8:33pm

There was obviously a tremendous rage in whoever killed poor little baby John. How could anybody hate a little baby so much. I couldn't even imagine it. Such a very sad case.

Atoms for Peace · 18-01-2018 8:43pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Gerry O’ Carroll should shut up considering the farce of the previous investigation - how insensitive can you get, even in retirement. :rolleyes:

What a absolute bastard! He should be doing time, along with a lot more, for what he put that an innocent woman and her family through.

You really do have to question the motivations of why this story has been dredged up again despite evidence being there for the past twenty years.

Wombatman · 18-01-2018 9:04pm

Summer wind wrote: »

There was obviously a tremendous rage in whoever killed poor little baby John. How could anybody hate a little baby so much. I couldn't even imagine it. Such a very sad case.

“Baby John”, was found with 28 stab wounds. He was three days old when he was killed. His body was found two days later on White Strand in Co Kerry on April 14th, 1984.

Joanne Hayes gave birth late on the night of April 12th, 1984.

SEPT 23 1989 · 18-01-2018 9:36pm

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

You really do have to question the motivations of why this story has been dredged up again despite evidence being there for the past twenty years.

Usually if they are willing to admit to things when there is far worse waiting on the wings

Official Ireland is a cesspit

The Kerry Babies Case

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