Homophobic remarks at work today

bicloset · 17-01-2018 9:30pm #1

Today I experienced my first homophobic bullying in the workplace. I am not out to people and keep myself to myself at work. Its a very male dominated workforce in manufacturing in rural Ireland so it isn't google. I had to ask 2 guys a work related question. Another man who always has plenty to say for himself was there and randomly turns around to me and asks if I have a boyfriend. When I said no I didn't, he then asked do I want one? and I said no to which he replies that he will keep his ear out for me.

This left me paranoid about my "ability to not act gay" as I consider myself not camp. It maddened me that someone who I hardly know and rarely see in work would ask me that question and I am convinced the question was asked cuz they had suspicions about me. How dare they think they deserve to know. I was caught on the hop and couldn't even think of a smart comeback answer.

Deep down I wanted to say yes I do have one (even tho I don't) but I knew people like that wouldn't give a **** and don't deserve to know. I just walked away after I got my answer but felt I didn't stand up or do enough. I don't mind abit of banter at work but I felt singled out in this particular situation.

a) Should I go back to the person on their own and challenge them and ask why they directed that question to me and it was none of their business if I had a gf or bf or whatever.

Report it to a manager and hope they get a dressing down....this may result in the whole company finding out which is completely what I don't want
C) Say nothing but if it happens again; then do A or B.

I really have got sick of suppressing things and its people like the above who act in a smart way makes us feel we have to lie to them. I would never ask anyone if they were gay but I certainly wouldn't ask someone if I had suspicions they were gay.

Sounds simple but having a company who promotes their diversity and LGBT on a simple banner or poster would have been a huge solution and given me something to stand on.

Any constructive thoughts are welcomed and I understand people may not think this as homophobic bullying but I think it totally is and the sneakiest kind of bullying.

Ten of Swords · 17-01-2018 10:29pm

bicloset wrote: »

I understand people may not think this as homophobic bullying but I think it totally is and the sneakiest kind of bullying.

It is and you do not have to justify it to anyone, a previous thread along similar lines was derailed by people arguing the definition of homophobic bullying so I hope the mods will take a dim view any such posts in this thread.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you and no matter how innocuous and 'banter with the lads' those comments may appear to be you can't understate the impact on making you feel small, powerless and insignificant and that is not on. You don't need to explain yourself to anyone and he had no business making those comments in front of other colleagues. There are a number of ways you can approach this. You suggested speaking privately to the guy who made the comments. Personally I would see that as a logical first step, even if you believe he won't care you need to let him know he crossed a line. Reporting him to your manager (or his manager if you're in different areas) is another option but I would still speak to him first before taking that step so you've covered all bases.

Is your workshop/factory part of a larger concern ie, do you have a HR representative or dedicated department? Has your company got a written policy on Bullying/Respect in the Workplace etc? Does your workplace have a union and are you a member, if so the Shop Steward can accompany you if you make a complaint to management.

Your concerns that the whole company will find out - you can tell your manager that you don't want to make a complaint but you'd appreciate if they could have a quiet word with this person to nip such behavior in the bud. Your manager is unlikely to spread it around the workplace but the guy being spoken to potentially could, you need to factor in that possibility. You say this guy always has plenty to say for himself, has he made belittling or bullying comments at anyone else? Has he targeted you before with (non-homophobic) remarks that made you uncomfortable.

Option C, do nothing. If you feel you can get over his remarks and the humiliation you felt then you can shrug it off and move on but doing so could show this guy (and the others that were present) that making these comments to you is OK, you could see these remarks becoming increasingly frequent and mean. This has been on your mind enough for you to start your thread. While you could stay silent just to keep the peace in work I don't think that would really satisfy you.

Do you have any friends in work that you could talk to about the way you were spoken to? You don't need to talk about sexuality but could simply tell them that the guys comments, tone and the intent to humiliate you is making you consider speaking to management. These things get around in a workplace, it might get back to this person and prompt them to cop on a bit.

baby and crumble · 17-01-2018 10:50pm

From what you’ve posted, OP, I can’t see how this is actionable bullying. Someone asked you a question, you answered. They asked a follow up and you answered. Perhaps there was more to it but I honestly don’t see the problem here.

adam88 · 17-01-2018 11:09pm

Jeez. I feel for you. I never came out as such, it just sort of happened and people found out I was gay. Funny story, my supervisor on a staff night out asked me was I gay to which I answered yes. Total no no if I had gone further about it. Suppose for me I was ready to be open about my sexuality.

Would you have been offended if you were straight and he asked had you a girlfriend??? Now chances are he might be a smart arse and have an idea that your gay but then again he might not. If I was you I’d write down the event. Date, time, place, what was said, who was there an email it to yourself. Keep a record of it Incase he starts making an issue and starts throwing digs your way. You’d be surprised at the amount of lads that would tell him to shut up if he started slinging mud your way. It came up in my workplace one day how I had an easy time being gay and I passed a comment that I’d take the p1ss out of myself for being gay and would be open to a bit of banter but if I thought someone was being serious and was having a laff st my expense I wouldn’t take it lying down. The amount of lads around the table that said that they’d fully support me was unbelievable, these were you typical lads lad. Got great support from it

racso1975 · 17-01-2018 11:14pm

It sound like a male dominated work force. The ideal answer "Yeah I'll tell your dad you said hi" then just laugh it off

magentis · 17-01-2018 11:14pm

adam88 wrote: »

Jeez. I feel for you. I never came out as such, it just sort of happened and people found out I was gay. Funny story, my supervisor on a staff night out asked me was I gay to which I answered yes. Total no no if I had gone further about it. Suppose for me I was ready to be open about my sexuality.

Would you have been offended if you were straight and he asked had you a girlfriend??? Now chances are he might be a smart arse and have an idea that your gay but then again he might not. If I was you I’d write down the event. Date, time, place, what was said, who was there an email it to yourself. Keep a record of it Incase he starts making an issue and starts throwing digs your way. You’d be surprised at the amount of lads that would tell him to shut up if he started slinging mud your way. It came up in my workplace one day how I had an easy time being gay and I passed a comment that I’d take the p1ss out of myself for being gay and would be open to a bit of banter but if I thought someone was being serious and was having a laff st my expense I wouldn’t take it lying down. The amount of lads around the table that said that they’d fully support me was unbelievable, these were you typical lads lad. Got great support from it

Christ almighty.

It was just a question.

No need to be perpetually offended.Sometimes you need to accept a situation for what it is,regardless of your orientation.

JackTaylorFan · 17-01-2018 11:15pm

baby and crumble wrote: »

From what you’ve posted, OP, I can’t see how this is actionable bullying. Someone asked you a question, you answered. They asked a follow up and you answered. Perhaps there was more to it but I honestly don’t see the problem here.

Depends on the tone of the conversation... I read the OP's account in a different voice obviously.

Perhaps, my experiences have made me wary, but all my life I have been asked if I liked boys or girls in a very bullying tone which sounded a lot like this... I even once had a teacher in school ask in front of a whole class of 15 year old kids...

Tell me how · 17-01-2018 11:16pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you and no matter how innocuous and 'banter with the lads' those comments may appear to be you can't understate the impact on making you feel small, powerless and insignificant and that is not on.

If the OP was straight, would such questions (are you in a relationship, do you want one) constitute bullying? I don't think so to be honest.

It might be intrusive or a bit forward but not bullying. In my view.

If you had said, "sorry, my private life is private and I'd rather not discuss it" and they continued then you'd have cause to bring it further.

I'm sorry that you felt uncomfortable but I don't think that that interaction was definitely intended to demean you.

Ten of Swords · 17-01-2018 11:27pm

bicloset wrote: »

Another man who always has plenty to say for himself was there and randomly turns around to me and asks if I have a boyfriend. When I said no I didn't, he then asked do I want one? and I said no to which he replies that he will keep his ear out for me.

This left me paranoid about my "ability to not act gay" as I consider myself not camp. It maddened me that someone who I hardly know and rarely see in work would ask me that question

Could be innocent enough, but I would not let someone who is basically a stranger pick out a boyfriend for me.

As I said, could be innocent but seems like someone acting the smartarse to me and I think op sees it this way too.

bicloset · 17-01-2018 11:34pm

Thanks for the feedback.

If the person in question worked alongside me and I was pally with them and they asked me that question in a respectful manner, I would be okay with that.

However asking the question unprovoked and spontanously was implying "I think you are gay and hence I am asking you have you a bf; I do not think you are fit to have a gf, hence I directed the question". Whatever it was about asking had I boyfriend, to follow that up with would I like one, was really pushing the boundary and moved the thing beyond being considered a slag...too much more..

As one reader said, I took a note of what was said and the time etc if something comes up again.

I know one reader suggested approaching the person directly...I think if the person is soo smart and ignorant/narrow minded to do what they did, they would revel in me showing I was offended and potentially escalate the issue.

We have 1 HR person but she basically just does payroll. No HR team/no contract/no policies.....you would question and I do why the hell do I surround myself in such a "tough" environment....truth was to get a break from the rental rat race in Dublin and I don''t know myself cheap rent and no commutes.....but as regards fitting it....this is proving difficult. I am there 4 months....I think give it another 2 to 3 months and I will jump ship after get more experience. Thanks for all your feedback and understanding by the way, glad to know I am not overly sensitive and ye all have the maturity to distinguish lads banter and direct insults!

Peregrinus · 18-01-2018 2:15am

Tell me how wrote: »

If the OP was straight, would such questions (are you in a relationship, do you want one) constitute bullying? I don't think so to be honest.

It might be intrusive or a bit forward but not bullying. In my view . . .

There's a difference, though. The OP is not out and the questions, asked in the presence of work colleagues and presumably overheard by them, look to me like an attempt to out him. And intentionally outing someone as gay is definitely homophobic bullying.

CreativeSen · 18-01-2018 8:55am

Hey OP, its hard to come out at work and it seems unfair to have to come out. I found the whole episode to be a whole lot of mental anguish, self doubt and a huge amount of over thinking and brain power. And it was all a waste of time.

Dont get me wrong, your personal life is yours and you are in a professional setting and if you dont want to talk about your personal life with your colleagues then dont. But are you happy?

You said a few things in the different posts on this thread which suggests that you carry with you a lot of shame and self doubt:

This left me paranoid about my "ability to not act gay" as I consider myself not camp.

I am convinced the question was asked cuz they had suspicions about me. How dare they think they deserve to know. I was caught on the hop and couldn't even think of a smart comeback answer.

Deep down I wanted to say yes I do have one (even tho I don't) but I knew people like that wouldn't give a **** and don't deserve to know.

I think you are gay and hence I am asking you have you a bf; I do not think you are fit to have a gf, hence I directed the question

You work with these people every day and they barely know you. You dont even really know the guy that asked the question, you dont know what his story is, his background, his motivation, do you?

Personally I dont think this is bullying....most of us have been in your shoes at one time. Personally I think you need to have more confidence in yourself, more pride in who you are and more faith in the people around you to not really give a crap about what you do in your bedroom

RocketRaccoon · 18-01-2018 8:58am

The man asked you a question which you answered. This isn't bullying and it certainly isn't homophobic.

Sleeper12 · 18-01-2018 9:23am

I wonder would this genius ask that question to all the guys thinking it funny? In other words he possibly hasn't a clue if you are gay or not.

I'm sorry you've had a bad time in work

Neyite · 18-01-2018 9:29am

Could it have been a clumsy way of letting you know that they see no issue with being gay and that they understand that in a male-dominated workplace it might be a concern of yours - ie, that you have a workplace friend who doesn't care whether you are gay or straight.

Asking people about their personal life at work can be irritating at times but it's par for the course in any job. I was often asked if I'd a boyfriend/ husband. I've been asked where I come from, where I live, who I'm related to because they know so-and-so from there with the same surname. I've been asked more personal stuff that often struck a nerve too but that happens everyone.

If you aren't comfortable talking about your personal life though, that's perfectly fine, just have a stock of ready-made phrases to use so you are not caught on the hop.

Sebastian Dangerfield · 18-01-2018 9:39am

Peregrinus wrote: »

There's a difference, though. The OP is not out and the questions, asked in the presence of work colleagues and presumably overheard by them, look to me like an attempt to out him. And intentionally outing someone as gay is definitely homophobic bullying.

Or maybe, just maybe, not everyone is a homophobe, and it was an attempt to make the OP feel more comfortable and included - however ultimately misguided it was.

Coming out is obviously a big deal for people and I get that, but the "ability to not act gay" as the OP puts it, is not foolproof. A person we went to school with came out just after college and not a single person was surprised. You dont always need to formally come out for people to know. My advice, for what its worth, is to try to assume the best in people rather than the worst. If youre not comfortable talking about your sexuality thats fine, but part of having greater acceptance of homosexuality in society is that people will treat it as less of a big deal, and will ask questions they wouldnt have ten years ago.

Thats a good thing I think. Doesnt mean you have to engage or disclose info you dont want to; if it comes up again just change the subject or turn the question back on him.

spurious · 18-01-2018 9:40am

Neyite wrote:

Could it have been a clumsy way of letting you know that they see no issue with being gay and that they understand that in a male-dominated workplace it might be a concern of yours - ie, that you have a workplace friend who doesn't care whether you are gay or straight.

That was my first thought when I read it. So much depends on tone, which we cannot get through written accounts.

However, if the OP feels uneasy with it, perhaps a quiet word with the person involved might help?

Saying they will keep an eye out for a boyfriend for you doesn't seem homophobic to me, considering so many other options - keep your eye off me/arses to the wall etc., all of which I have heard said to people in 'banter', that all encompassing cloak of bullying.

I do appreciate though that bullying is in the eye of the beholder and OP I'm sorry they upset you, you know this person better than I do and whether it's more likely he was having a dig rather than trying to tell you he knows and its OK. Maybe have a couple of words with him?

daithi84 · 18-01-2018 9:50am

Yeah the remark was not homophobic nor bullying. It could of just been his way of finding out more about you. Coming out in a work place is extremely stressful especially when you have to do it in every new job. I would leave this be. If it leads to something more sinister down the road then seek advice but to be honest it sounds like he was just being inquisitive.

seamus · 18-01-2018 10:16am

This all comes down to tone.

The only time I've ever heard someone say words like, "Do you have a boyfriend - do you want one" were teenagers bullying other kids.

If it was said in a serious way, it comes across fairly odd - would you ever ask a colleague you didn't know about their relationship status and then offer to "keep an eye out"? No, you wouldn't.

I would have no doubt that he is poking the waters to check if the OP is gay, rather than trying to make him uncomfortable. But only because the guy is a nosey gossip who'd love to be able to have a little snigger with his brainless mates about the gay fella in the factory.

Unfortunately there will always be gossip in workplaces, so if the OP does complain then he can be pretty sure that it will get around. Probably the best thing he can do at this stage is stop hiding it, to cut it off before it becomes "gossip". If you pretend to be straight and then it turns out you're gay, that's gossip. If you're just gay, that's not gossip. Nobody cares anymore.

You don't have to go around shouting it from the rooftops or prancing around the factory like a queen, but don't pretend to be someone you're not.

SterlingArcher · 18-01-2018 10:30am

Hey there. I personally wouldn't do the whole reporting thing.

Honestly. It wasn't banter.but even still. You don't know for sure if there was real malice behind it. If they follow up with more obvious bs they have left themselves wide open.then hit them with both barrels.

I will say this. You may feel slightly annoyed you were caught off guard and weren't as sharp as usually in your rebuttal. But don't be. you didn't lie. which is valuable currency.

cgcsb · 18-01-2018 11:00am

You should expect to have this thread closed. I started a similar thread a few months ago and it was closed, reason being because straight folks kept coming on and dishing out homophobic abuse and there were too many of them to ban or something like that.

cgcsb · 18-01-2018 11:14am

My two cents:
Well it isn't bullying if it's only a single remark. Bullying is a persistent behavior.

How did your other colleague who was present react? did he say anything?

It depends on how well you know this person. If you've chatted a bit it might be an acceptable question, but it's one that I'd only ask in gender neutral terms.

On the face of it, it sounds like you don't know him at all and he just marched up to you and asked about a bf. This is certainly a homophoic comment. It came out of the blue, there was no pretext conversation about partners, and it was done with only one other person(probably his buddy) present. The intent was clearly to make you uncomfortable, perhaps being aware of your 'not out' status and he just wanted to watch you squirm. It's a tactic that some people use to assert their dominance when a new person starts. I've experienced it myself but I'm usually quick enough off the bat with witticisms that I quietly make to myself in the first few seconds of meeting someone new.

My advice would be to have a witticism stored up and let it out next time he says anything. Going to HR is a dead duck approach for your career, it doesn't work.

Annasopra · 18-01-2018 4:36pm

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

The man asked you a question which you answered. This isn't bullying and it certainly isn't homophobic.

daithi84 wrote: »

Yeah the remark was not homophobic nor bullying. It could of just been his way of finding out more about you. Coming out in a work place is extremely stressful especially when you have to do it in every new job. I would leave this be. If it leads to something more sinister down the road then seek advice but to be honest it sounds like he was just being inquisitive.

Mod

It is possible these comments were not homophobic or bullying. Personally I am not sure as I dont know the full context.

Definite posts like these are not particularly helpful and could I ask that you acquaint yourself with the charter and listen to posters here. I accept you both have an opinion about this but please don't present your opinion as fact. More helpful responses might go along the lines of "I dont think this is homophobic or bullying because...."

Annasopra · 18-01-2018 4:38pm

cgcsb wrote: »

You should expect to have this thread closed. I started a similar thread a few months ago and it was closed, reason being because straight folks kept coming on and dishing out homophobic abuse and there were too many of them to ban or something like that.

Mod

I think you have made this point already. I as a moderator have taken your feedback on board.
Theres no need to keep repeating your feedback on threads. If you have further feedback feel free to private message moderators.

One eyed Jack · 18-01-2018 5:12pm

OP I'd have a fair idea of the kind of work environment you're talking about and absolutely I would agree with you that in this instance, yours is a very good example of the real experiences of someone who experiences this kind of thing where there is an attitude of a negative attachment to being anything but heterosexual.

It may well be that the guy you work with has no idea of your sexuality, and could well still be completely unaware, but that doesn't stop his negative attitude towards people who are gay, and that by most people's understanding is the definition of homophobia, and the fact that he singled you out to be ridiculed, is bullying, and the way he went about it is an indication of his attitude towards gay men generally.

I don't think there's much you can do in that situation as that sort of person prides themselves on provoking a reaction in the first place, and they'll always have a "smarter" comeback than yours.

I think what has you more unnerved is the possibility that you imagine someone might have seen through your straight act, but generally the kind of person who comes out with those sorts of comments isn't even thinking that deeply about it.

I'd leave this incident go personally, but if it were to become a persistent thing, I would certainly approach your manager and make a formal complaint either harassment or bullying, and I wouldn't even mention the fact that you're gay because the important thing is that the harassment and bullying is stopped. It's not your responsibility to account for yourself to anyone because you're not the person in the wrong here, they are, and it is their responsibility to examine their own attitudes to other people, not yours.

bicloset · 19-01-2018 10:09pm

First off, I thank all the comments and agree with all of what people have said. Its genuinely humbling. Below is a few points to clarify my stance and feelings on the situation

Neyite wrote: »

Could it have been a clumsy way of letting you know that they see no issue with being gay and that they understand that in a male-dominated workplace it might be a concern of yours - ie, that you have a workplace friend who doesn't care whether you are gay or straight.

As much as I wish this was true, I don't think this was the case. Perhaps if he had only asked the first question, maybe, but going further asking would I like a BF and that he would keep an ear out for me made me feel this wasn't the case.

How did your other colleague who was present react? did he say anything?

To be fair; they didn't say anything which makes me wonder did they think it was unacceptable/or didn't think anything of it. Either way, it has left me suspicious of everyone; both the sound people and not just those "loud mouth stereotypical homophobes"-we know the sort

If you pretend to be straight and then it turns out you're gay, that's gossip. If you're just gay, that's not gossip. Nobody cares anymore.

This is very interesting perspective and a psychotherapist had said something similar to me a while ago. I was adviced to assume that everyone knows I'm gay. I guess the whole saga has left me paranoid as I thought everyone assumed I was straight like every other (most) rural 26 year old. Now that I feel rumbled, I am paranoid is it cuz I am more camp than I think, is it cuz i'm quiet, is it cuz I'm not a big GAA head or come into work dressed like I've hopped off a tractor and mugged to my eyeballs. When I lived and worked in Dublin, it was easier to "act" straight.

On a more positive note, I told my first friend before Xmas who is a gent. His response to me was "I kind of thought you might be gay but was afraid to ask incase I offended you; he then said he really couldn't give a **** if I was gay or not, it doesn't change one thing between us; its the 21st century now and I should tell all my other college mates" Very humbling and shows 2 different attitutes/cultures.

road_high · 20-01-2018 1:10pm

bicloset wrote: »

On a more positive note, I told my first friend before Xmas who is a gent. His response to me was "I kind of thought you might be gay but was afraid to ask incase I offended you; he then said he really couldn't give a **** if I was gay or not, it doesn't change one thing between us; its the 21st century now and I should tell all my other college mates" Very humbling and shows 2 different attitutes/cultures.

Well don't feel like you have to tell anyone anything. Your personal life is just that, your own business and none of theirs.

ignorance is strength · 20-01-2018 3:35pm

Ignore the comically naive people saying it's just a question or pointedly asking whether it would be offensive to ask a straight person: these sorts of reductive analyses are deployed by bigots and bigot apologists widely. (Is it possible they are migratory posters from After Hours?)

Without doubt, if the question was asked mockingly or intended to cause discomfort, it was homophobic (in the modern sense of being rooted in LGBT prejudice). The question is whether it was! I encountered situations like this when I wasn't out and I would agonise at length afterwards over what the intended meaning could have been. Invariably, I was wrong to think the worst. These days, if ever someone says something ambiguous I straight up ask them to clarify their meaning, and I'd strongly advise anyone to adopt that too, because I've avoided so much anguish as a result.

From what little detail you give, I'd lean towards what a poster above said about it being a (very) clumsy attempt to make you feel comfortable (or some other innocent explanation). I think we gays underestimate how uncomfortable it can be for someone when a friend or colleague they believe is gay isn't open with them, like a friend who's going through a traumatic breakup who won't talk about it. He might have worried that you felt the laddish atmosphere was alienating and wanted to reassure you that he'd be accepting. (Don't rule out that he himself isn't straight.) Equally, he could have been mocking you and that everyone in the office talks about it behind your back. I would ask him, justifying it by saying that you were surprised because you hadn't told anyone you were gay, but not if I weren't comfortable in everyone knowing.

Mountainsandh · 20-01-2018 4:58pm

I think OP, like a number of other posters, that it could have been a terribly clumsy attempt to reach out to you.

Sure you know what it is, you have very rough people sometimes who do have a good heart, but they can also be busy-bodies who want to meddle in everyone's life and think they can fix everything for everyone. These people who tend to intrude make me uncomfortable too. (edit : the "fixing" is not in reference to being gay or anything, just you know, these people who'll tell you what colour you should die your hair or what you should buy, or what you should say to someone you have a complaint about, list is endless...)

Maybe that's what this guy is.
An ignorant busy-body whose intentions were to let you know it was alright, but who totally made a balls of it.

It's just the "I'll keep an ear out for you" that sounds like a disastrous way to say "I'm fine with it you know".

I tend to prefer to assume the best in people myself. If you assume the best here, the guy has 2 issues : a) he's crap at communicating/social skills (pretty common in fairness), and b) he has no notion that some people can be friendly colleagues who prefer to keep their lives "out of the office" private.

Whether your man is ill or well intentioned, I think maybe you might be able to diffuse the issue with humour, if you're not too shy.
If he is indeed a bully, you're detaching yourself from the situation, and so you're getting one up on him.

If he's a well intentioned oaf, you're just letting him know that he went too far with the comments and you're setting a boundary.

You could call him "The Matchmaker" from now on, not in a mocking way, more on an equal-footing, humourously analytical kind of way, iykwim. Let him know, if you are again asking the same people questions and he's around, that you're after professional advice and there's no matchmaking required, thank you very much.

Only thing about that is that you're highlighting the event again. You might prefer to just let it be I don't know.

It's a lot of work to be doing for a situation that has been foisted on you by someone else, but sometimes for the sake of easier work place relationships it's worth it.

bicloset · 20-01-2018 7:15pm

road_high wrote: »

Well don't feel like you have to tell anyone anything. Your personal life is just that, your own business and none of theirs.

True, only reason I told my friend was he thought he had a crush on an Indian classmate (girl) who I insisted was only a friend, I felt he deserved to know and kind of knew deep down he would be sound about it. But I agree with your point

I admire all your positivity about it being a clumsy way of making me feel comfortable. However, I seen as a sheepish way to bully or intimidate someone; if he had of been ballsy enough to ask me the same question when it was only me and him; I would have seen it an attempt to comfort me. Likewise, if this man was someone I dealt with daily at work, again I would of seen it maybe as a way of letting me know its okay to be "out" to those I work or sit alongside. But these wasn't the case and thats why I felt and perceived it different.

wakka12 · 21-01-2018 9:44pm

Im surprised by the amount of people defending this. I can completely imagine the situation, it sounds very familiar, I guess he was grinning at you as he asked it? Maybe a few of the lads snickered too. It was meant to humiliate you and mock you but asked in such a way so that he could not be accused of any bullying, just a simple question eh... and that you could be accused of being over sensitive for being offended

Regardless of orientation I think its rude to put somebody on the spot like that in front of lots of people , and seeing as you're gay Id say there were elements of (I don't want to call it homophobia)..but I guess just making mockery of gay people a bit.
If he had asked a straight guy..the only situation I could imagine is the guy being asked is a bit of a loser,has no luck with ladies, as in he'd only ask this question to a person he wants to publicly bully/humiliate

Mountainsandh · 22-01-2018 12:04am

I don't know Wakka...

I spend a lot of time with people who have poor social and communication skills (teenagers !).

Sometimes you may think they're terribly bold and looking for trouble when really, the problem is just that they come across that way.

I cut and dyed my hair before the week-end. I'm going to go in tomorrow and have lots of reactions, some overly dramatic, some laughingly made remarks, some that will seem very rude.
I've learned over the years that really for the vast majority, it's just children a little shook that someone in their environment looks less familiar, laughing is not necessarily mocking, and how rude it sounds is really down to communication skills.
I know this because if I don't take offense and respond without being defensive, the reactions are spontaneously re-explained in a more appropriate manner, and there is no intention to insult or hurt.

Sometimes you just have to give people a chance, rather than jump and be defensive.

JackTaylorFan · 22-01-2018 12:13am

wakka12 wrote: »

Im surprised by the amount of people defending this. I can completely imagine the situation, it sounds very familiar, I guess he was grinning at you as he asked it? Maybe a few of the lads snickered too. It was meant to humiliate you and mock you but asked in such a way so that he could not be accused of any bullying, just a simple question eh... and that you could be accused of being over sensitive for being offended

Regardless of orientation I think its rude to put somebody on the spot like that in front of lots of people , and seeing as you're gay Id say there were elements of (I don't want to call it homophobia)..but I guess just making mockery of gay people a bit.
If he had asked a straight guy..the only situation I could imagine is the guy being asked is a bit of a loser,has no luck with ladies, as in he'd only ask this question to a person he wants to publicly bully/humiliate

I am equally as surprised by the LGBT people on this thread dismissing the incident as something innocent - even a MOD on here seems to be brushing it off. Most shockingly I found that one of the non LGBT contributors to this forum had a better grasp of this scenario than some of them.

The OP's story is typical of the kind of bullying you find on a playground, and it's the kind of homophobic attitude that some individuals carry into adulthood. It's not acceptable in anyway, shape or form to ask questions like this either in a work place or in any other context.

baby and crumble · 22-01-2018 9:46am

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I am equally as surprised by the LGBT people on this thread dismissing the incident as something innocent - even a MOD on here seems to be brushing it off. Most shockingly I found that one of the non LGBT contributors to this forum had a better grasp of this scenario than some of them.

The OP's story is typical of the kind of bullying you find on a playground, and it's the kind of homophobic attitude that some individuals carry into adulthood. It's not acceptable in anyway, shape or form to ask questions like this either in a work place or in any other context.

I know that my initial reaction seemed to brush it off, but without being the OP, it's very hard to know exactly the tone, context etc of any comments. I once had a girl in work ask me, privately, if I liked girls or guys. It wasn't said maliciously, I think she just picked up on a crush I had on one of the other staff and was actually trying to matchmake tbh.

I still don't see how this is "bullying". Bullying is sustained behaviour over a period of time. To say once off remarks are "bullying" actually does a huge disservice to those people who actually ARE bullied and harassed every single day. Sure, maybe the guy who made the comments was rude and ignorant (that much is pretty plain), but without being there it's very hard to say "yes that was homophobic". Some people are just curious and blurt out anything that comes into your head.

Obviously since the OP is distressed by the comments it's important to get some support but honestly- and I am speaking as a poster here, not as a mod- I don't think (like I said in my first post on thread) it's actionable bullying. You go to a HR department and tell them "he asked me if I had a boyfriend" and they'll look at you like "so"? It's a question. Yes, if these remarks become routine then it needs to be addressed but the OP asked for opinions. I gave mine as a poster.

I also realise I'm coming at this as a person who's been out at work and everywhere for going on 15 years. I'm also a person who shares quite a lot with my colleagues, and I always have. I don't like separating work and private life so rigidly as many others, I always feel stifled by it. So I get that that's colouring my feelings. Apologies to the OP if they thought I was being dismissive.

adam88 · 23-01-2018 3:40am

magentis wrote: »

Christ almighty.

It was just a question.

No need to be perpetually offended.Sometimes you need to accept a situation for what it is,regardless of your orientation.

I wasn’t offended by the question asked. Where did you gather than opinion from

the_syco · 23-01-2018 4:08am

bicloset wrote: »

However asking the question unprovoked and spontanously was implying "I think you are gay and hence I am asking you have you a bf; I do not think you are fit to have a gf, hence I directed the question".

In a past job, if you don't have a girlfriend that the head chef would like to fcuk, your sexuality would be questioned. Sometimes this sort of sh|t is said to break the ice between co-workers.

Also, have you considered that the person who asked you may be gay himself? Does he have a gf?

Mellor · 23-01-2018 4:42am

Tell me how wrote: »

If the OP was straight, would such questions (are you in a relationship, do you want one) constitute bullying? I don't think so to be honest.

That's it in a nutshell.
Different expectations only lead to people being treated differently.

On the other hand, tone says a lot. Which isn't conveyed in text. It's very easy to ask the above question in a different tones, to achieve different implication.

Peregrinus · 23-01-2018 5:13am

Tell me how wrote: »

If the OP was straight, would such questions (are you in a relationship, do you want one) constitute bullying? I don't think so to be honest.

It might be intrusive or a bit forward but not bullying. In my view.

Mellor wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell.
Different expectations only lead to people being treated differently.

On the other hand, tone says a lot. Which isn't conveyed in text. It's very easy to ask the above question in a different tones, to achieve different implication.

Per the OP, the questions weren't "Are you in a relationship? Do you want one?" They were "Do you have a boyfriend? Do you want one?" And, to cap it, the OP's reply (to the effect that he was not looking for a boyfriend) was dismissed with a promise to keep an eye out for a boyfriend for him.

Those questions, addressed to a man in a work environment in which he is not out, are more than "intrusive or a bit forward". They are highly inappropriate, and I'd be looking for some additional factor not mentioned in the OP to support any argument that they do not amount to bullying.

Mellor · 23-01-2018 8:22am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Per the OP, the questions weren't "Are you in a relationship? Do you want one?" They were "Do you have a boyfriend? Do you want one?" And, to cap it, the OP's reply (to the effect that he was not looking for a boyfriend) was dismissed with a promise to keep an eye out for a boyfriend for him.

Those questions, addressed to a man in a work environment in which he is not out, are more than "intrusive or a bit forward". They are highly inappropriate, and I'd be looking for some additional factor not mentioned in the OP to support any argument that they do not amount to bullying.

Not sure if you meant to quote my post or not. Nor am I sure how that applies to what I said.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Per the OP, the questions weren't "Are you in a relationship? Do you want one?" They were "Do you have a boyfriend? Do you want one?

What exactly is wrong with that part, taken at face value?
Would it be bullying to ask a straight person if they had a girlfriend instead of "are you in a relationship".

I agree that the comment at the end suggests his tone was less than genuine. But curious why you singled out the above part first.

wakka12 · 23-01-2018 9:06am

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure if you meant to quote my post or not. Nor am I sure how that applies to what I said.

What exactly is wrong with that part, taken at face value?
Would it be bullying to ask a straight person if they had a girlfriend instead of "are you in a relationship".

I agree that the comment at the end suggests his tone was less than genuine. But curious why you singled out the above part first.

When would any guy ask a straight guy they barely know if they've a girlfriend in front of lots of people? I think its rude either way if the person being asked is gay or straight, but the person asked was gay and the person asking focused on this, hence why I think it was homophobic

turbot · 23-01-2018 9:26am

bicloset wrote: »

Another man who always has plenty to say for himself was there and randomly turns around to me and asks if I have a boyfriend. When I said no I didn't, he then asked do I want one? and I said no to which he replies that he will keep his ear out for me.

....

Any constructive thoughts are welcomed and I understand people may not think this as homophobic bullying but I think it totally is and the sneakiest kind of bullying.

Is it possible he knew someone who was into you and was trying to set you up on a friends behalf, while being not quite sure if you were gay, with no offence intended? Is it possible he knew someone else who was gay and thought you might be a good match for them, trying to serve both your interests, with good will?

What you describe simply sounds like your own social awkwardness surrounding this area... not a third party intentionally bullying you. That may be conflated with awkwardness in his mannerisms...

It may be a personal subject for some people / workplaces, but it shouldn't be a taboo subject per se. Whether or not you choose to disclose personal things, if you don't have the inner option to answer such questions without it feeling like bullying, probably you have some work on yourself to do.

As a straight guy (with loads of gay/lgbt/gender-fluid friends) who from time to time has been asked if I was gay etc, I've never taken that as an offensive question.

wakka12 · 23-01-2018 9:28am

If you genuinely wanted to find a partner for somebody you would say it to them personally with nobody else around, or at least in a less public environment than the OP described
Not a chance that lad was being genuine

Mellor · 23-01-2018 9:29am

wakka12 wrote: »

When would any guy ask a straight guy they barely know if they've a girlfriend in front of lots of people? I think its rude either way if the person being asked is gay or straight, but the person asked was gay and the person asking focused on this, hence why I think it was homophobic

People often ask their colleagues personal question to get to know them. Only today I was asked if I was going to marry my partner.

The fact you said "but this person is gay" is kinda my point. Do you think it's different if the person is gay?

The OP's colleague possibly was being homophobic. He's not relevant to my question though.

Henry94 · 23-01-2018 9:33am

Take a note of it. With bullying, a single incident can be ambiguous and you can give the benefit of the doubt. But a pattern tells a story. Keep a record and don't change your behavior.

wakka12 · 23-01-2018 9:33am

Mellor wrote: »

People often ask their colleagues personal question to get to know them. Only today I was asked if I was going to marry my partner.

The fact you said "but this person is gay" is kinda my point. Do you think it's different if the person is gay?

The OP's colleague possibly was being homophobic. He's not relevant to my question though.

Did a random colleague who you don't know ask you? In front of a room full of people? In a situation in which there were no other personal questions being asked, either before it or to anyone else?

Maybe it wasn't homophobic, but I would think he was trying to make the person feel awkward or humiliate them. And given it wasn't asked to a straight person, makes me think it was more on the homophobic side. Maybe Im wrong, maybe you're right, nobody knows

baby and crumble · 23-01-2018 9:37am

wakka12 wrote: »

If you genuinely wanted to find a partner for somebody you would say it to them personally with nobody else around, or at least in a less public environment than the OP described
Not a chance that lad was being genuine

wakka12 wrote: »

When would any guy ask a straight guy they barely know if they've a girlfriend in front of lots of people? I think its rude either way if the person being asked is gay or straight, but the person asked was gay and the person asking focused on this, hence why I think it was homophobic

I honestly think you're giving people more credit than is due. I've been asked in front of many people if I'm male or female, I've seen people asked in groups if they're going to have children, if not why not- is there something wrong with them? I've heard of people asking why their family member (my MIL as it happens) had a disbility- was it because of incest?

There's probably no way to say for certain if in this instance what was said was homophobic in intent- really the only person who could asnwer that is the person who said it. Some people are just so so clumsy in how they go about things. But OP there's no harm in taking a nore of anythign you feel is hurtful or ofeensive so that you can see if a pattern emerges. That will tell you more about homophobia/bullying than strangers on the internet who weren't there.

Mellor · 23-01-2018 1:01pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Did a random colleague who you don't know ask you? In front of a room full of people? In a situation in which there were no other personal questions being asked, either before it or to anyone else?

More or less. The girl today just came out with it out of the blue.

Maybe it wasn't homophobic, but I would think he was trying to make the person feel awkward or humiliate them. And given it wasn't asked to a straight person, makes me think it was more on the homophobic side. Maybe Im wrong, maybe you're right, nobody knows

Even if he was being homophobic, that doesn't make my point wrong, or right.
You avoided my question btw, about whether a it's different to ask a gay person that.

Annasopra · 23-01-2018 6:06pm

Mellor wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with that part, taken at face value?
Would it be bullying to ask a straight person if they had a girlfriend instead of "are you in a relationship".

I think this has been explained already. But it is different. In a heteronormative world can often be quite intimidating and not meant in a casual friendly way so the whataboutery of the girlfriend thing is not relevant. Also where a person is not out in the workplace a question like this is potentially outing them publicly against their own wishes.

Annasopra · 23-01-2018 6:09pm

Mellor wrote: »

The fact you said "but this person is gay" is kinda my point. Do you think it's different if the person is gay?
.

Yes. It is different. Equality does NOT mean we are all the same. It is different because gay people can often be subjected to serious workplace bullying and discrimination and also because gay people may not want to be out or to be publicly outed in the workplace.

ignorance is strength · 23-01-2018 7:26pm

Mellor wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with that part, taken at face value?

So much bigotry could be dismissed if that were a criterion of assessment.

turbot wrote: »

Is it possible he knew someone who was into you and was trying to set you up on a friends behalf, while being not quite sure if you were gay, with no offence intended? Is it possible he knew someone else who was gay and thought you might be a good match for them, trying to serve both your interests, with good will?

What you describe simply sounds like your own social awkwardness surrounding this area... not a third party intentionally bullying you. That may be conflated with awkwardness in his mannerisms...

It may be a personal subject for some people / workplaces, but it shouldn't be a taboo subject per se. Whether or not you choose to disclose personal things, if you don't have the inner option to answer such questions without it feeling like bullying, probably you have some work on yourself to do.

As a straight guy (with loads of gay/lgbt/gender-fluid friends) who from time to time has been asked if I was gay etc, I've never taken that as an offensive question.

How likely is it that this guy, in a blokish environment (who presumably conforms to the type, otherwise OP would have mentioned it), decided to play match-maker for someone he barely knew and who had never discussed their sexuality, and to do it in front of another colleague? I accept that it's a possibility, but why dismiss the OP's concerns on the basis of such an improbable explanation?

"...your own social awkwardness..." You may well disagree with this, but progressive thought generally privileges the minority voice or the victim in determining whether something is offensive. If you ask a trans person what their birth name was, it's considered offensive (if you wanna know why, google it - or ask one of your friends); if you ask the same question of a Chinese person with an anglicized name, it could well be considered complimentary, in that you are showing interest. We don't insist that, because the Chinese person is unoffended, the trans person would be wrong to be offended. We acknowledge that the context is different and defer to the individual to decide for themselves. The same is true here. It's greatly insensitive to blame the OP for being offended.

I've read your final sentence a few times but still don't understand what point exactly you're making, or how whatever you meant could be relevant. That you, as someone who did not suffer years and years of insecurity and anguish because of your sexual or gender identity, aren't offended to be sometimes considered something you're not is hardly relevant to an LGBT person in this situation, and your response, therefore, shouldn't be used to assess whether it is offensive.

Ten of Swords · 23-01-2018 8:20pm

Op how has the last week been for you at your workplace? Have you thought about how you want to approach it now that you've had some time to process it? Has anything else happened, either covertly or overtly, that made you feel uncomfortable?

Homophobic remarks at work today

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